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Topic: Risk Of Losing Bitcoins Through Seed Creation - page 2. (Read 411 times)

legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 5213
November 08, 2021, 04:37:44 AM
#7
It is quite new to me that it is 134 bits on electrum, I only thought what is different about the seed phrase between Electrum and BIP39 is how they are generated, inclusion of version number to Electrum seed phrase during generation, I do not know if the entropy is not the same.
132 bits of entropy, not 134.

In a seed generated by electrum, there is no checksum. So, unlike a 12 word BIP39 seed phrase (in which the last 4 bits are checksum) in a 12 word electrum seed phrase, all 132 bits are generated randomly.
For more information, click here and read the post made by o_e_l_e_o in response to my question on another thread .
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
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November 08, 2021, 04:07:47 AM
#6
Should users be encouraged to add some random words to reduce these (admittedly minuscule) risk?

Adding extra words is a nice addition, just one has to be careful with all his steps because
* the chance is millions1 of times higher somebody steals the seed and extra words than find the same wallet by collision, hence it's important how the wallet was created (safely) and how the wallet and backup are stored
* the chance is millions of times higher the user makes something overly complicated he doesn't understand and he cannot recover his own wallet at a later time.

Notes:
1 Maybe you go on with reading this topic
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 4795
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
November 08, 2021, 03:41:32 AM
#5
The 12 words are 128 bits of entropy, which is considered more then enough.
128 bits of entropy is very enough, with the additional of 4 more bits during checksum which makes it 132 bits before the generation of the 12 word seed phrase.

Obviously more words would make it more secure.
Yes, but also the use of passphrase can help, especially to ease ps1234's mind of any uncertainty (which its chance is negligible and highly impossible). ps1234, know that the additional of passphrase will result to generation of different keys and addresses entirely. If you do not have the passphrase anymore, only seed phrase can no be used to recover backup your wallet during wallet recovery.

However, it is more likely to loose money due to carelessness / not keeping good security practices then it is to loose BTC due to someone randomly generating your seed phrase.
Carelessless and hack have been the reason people are losing bitcoin.

A 12 word seed phrase generated by electrum provides 132 bits of entropy.
DaveF meant the BIP39 standard which is 128 bits of entropy. It is quite new to me that it is 134132 bits on electrum, I only thought what is different about the seed phrase between Electrum and BIP39 is how they are generated and inclusion of version number to Electrum seed phrase after generation, I do not know if the entropy is not the same.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
November 07, 2021, 10:45:47 PM
#4
With luck, they might generate a valid wallet, which had been previously created, and which contains bitcoins
Similarly, a non malicious user might accidentally generate a duplicate wallet.
Imagine if you could see atoms that are in the entire universe. Now imagine if you randomly selected one atom out of the whole set. The chances of someone else also selecting the same atom is the same chance of someone else finding your seed phrase if chosen randomly.
legendary
Activity: 2380
Merit: 5213
November 07, 2021, 03:47:33 PM
#3
Hackers take the advantages of the mistakes made by people. If your seed phrase is generated on an air-gapped computer, there's nothing a hacker can do.
As stated by DaveF, a 12-word seed phrase provides enough entropy.

Anyway, if you want your seed phrase to have more words for any reason, you can ask electrum to generate a 24 word seed phrase. (As humans may not be good at generating random words, I think that's a better option.)
To do so, go to console and use the following command.

Code:
make_seed(256)


The 12 words are 128 bits of entropy, which is considered more then enough.
A 12 word seed phrase generated by electrum provides 132 bits of entropy.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
November 07, 2021, 12:05:29 PM
#2
The 12 words are 128 bits of entropy, which is considered more then enough.
Obviously more words would make it more secure.
However, it is more likely to loose money due to carelessness / not keeping good security practices then it is to loose BTC due to someone randomly generating your seed phrase.

-Dave
jr. member
Activity: 32
Merit: 37
November 07, 2021, 11:51:19 AM
#1
I know it's very unlikely, but there is nothing to stop a hacker from generating wallets using the 12 word Electrum seeds, to steal bitcoins.

With luck, they might generate a valid wallet, which had been previously created, and which contains bitcoins

Similarly, a non malicious user might accidentally generate a duplicate wallet.

Should users be encouraged to add some random words to reduce these (admittedly minuscule) risk?
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