Topic: SANDSTORM: - A Collective Investment Vehicle for BTC. - - page 6. (Read 35774 times)

Generally speaking, the willingness of the OP to thoroughly answer any and all questions can be indicative of the effort they’re willing to put into their business.

Thanks for addressing some of the points which i think are misleading in Korbman's post. I'll take an in-depth look at his post and make a response later.

Assets
10 ASICminer direct shares (2.5)
6 ASICminer-PT shares (2.48)
4 ASICminer-PT shares(4.19)

10 Cognitive Shares (.28)
100 RentalStarter shares (.0149)
40 bASIC shares (.27)
38.4BTC

well either way, thats decent motivation to do well having 40000 shares potentially worth more than $40,000 dollars.

and 10x evaluation is nothing compared to stocks and funds with P/E ratios of MUCH MUCH higher,

seeing as i personally made close to 1000% in one of my best months daytrading cryptos, 10x evaluation doesn't seem so high,  in fact potentially very cheap

ps: im not biased as of yet, but am purchasing this week when funds arrive.  as i dont want to sell my ltc

Quick interjection here..


You're going for a Masters in Economics, and you're trying to tell us that you seriously believe you can sustain a 52% annual ROI for a long time?


Clear to who, exactly? The newbies who bought on hype on page 7?

As I said before, I (and many others) look for details on your investments..not just a typed up asset list. Purchase and sale prices, dates of purchase, quantities purchased on those dates, weighted share value per asset, profit / losses modeled over time..hell, if you're feeling frisky model out a CAPM for your portfolio. The more data I see, the more likely I am to put in my BTC50, BTC100, or BTC200, etc.


EDIT: Where's MPOE? She's usually all over this stuff..

There's a fundamental misunderstanding here about how an IPO works. Jason IPOed 60K shares at 0.001 per share. It doesn't matter these shares resold for > .01 per share; Jason doesn't benefit from that until he sells his own at the higher price. He has only has 100BTC (60BTC raised from the IPO + 40BTC for his own stake) to work with plus whatever his 40K shares earn from dividends to reinvest.

I don't think that there's any scam going on here and in fact I'll be happy to buy shares at or near .001 / share. I just don't see how it's valued at 10x that amount.

He will be utilizing all the capital, or it would make zero sense to have it traded on a bid/ask scenario.
no different than if the shares totaled only 100 btc and he took a small decline he would than trade with less, he is likely now going to have well over 1000 and will trade with that. i will believe that until he mentions otherwise , which im sure he will not.

+1 for everyone who actually might believe this. He said he wasn't planning well his 40k shares so you are making other shareholders and/or speculators wealthier, not him or his funds assets per se.

But if I buy in at a higher price, that just means he has more capital to work with, so he can make me an even higher percent yield! [/noob]

But if I buy in at a higher price, that just means he has more capital to work with, so he can make me an even higher percent yield! [/noob]

It should be very clear to newbies that Sandstorm only is investing 100BTC (~$10,000) worth of capital. What fantasy would those newbs be imagining that would make these investments worth 10x that amount? Even if Sandstorm guaranteed (which is not the case) the 1% dividend minimum, there's no way anyone can think the valuaion should be $100,000+. There's no excuse for people buying at that value if they even skimmed the prospectus.

Quick interjection here..


You're going for a Masters in Economics, and you're trying to tell us that you seriously believe you can sustain a 52% annual ROI for a long time?


Clear to who, exactly? The newbies who bought on hype on page 7?

As I said before, I (and many others) look for details on your investments..not just a typed up asset list. Purchase and sale prices, dates of purchase, quantities purchased on those dates, weighted share value per asset, profit / losses modeled over time..hell, if you're feeling frisky model out a CAPM for your portfolio. The more data I see, the more likely I am to put in my BTC50, BTC100, or BTC200, etc.


EDIT: Where's MPOE? She's usually all over this stuff..

1% isn't a promise but if you were to an analysis of the current assets of Sandstorm it's clear that this goal can easily be sustained for a long time.

The weekly reports make it clear to anyone the state of affairs at Sandstorm. This transparency is there so investors can make informed trading decisions.

It's a different risk here than for most funds.

Most funds promise in the event they cant continue to sell off assets and share it out to investors.

Sandstorm promises :

"If on the unlikely chance that Sandstorm can't continue:
Shareholders will be fully informed and a suitable replacement for management will be sought after. If this attempt is unsuccessful, shares will be purchased back at 105% of the 7 day average. All remaining assets will be liquidated and distributed to shareholders through dividends."

So he promises to by buy back based on market price - which is horrible for a fund to do.  Having made that promise I think korbman's perfectly valid point is that he should be demonstrating that he has the assets to do so (NOT just the assets the fund holds) otherwise the fund is backed by a promised buyback value which can't be delivered.

Buy-backs based on market price are widely used - and are bad in pretty much every case.  They either allow the issuer to talk (or flood) the price down first OR they expose the issuer to having to pay an excessive amount.

With the current trading price for Sandstorm I have no idea whether the issuer could afford to buy back per his contract - and it would be unreasonable for him to do so anyway.  But that's what his contract promises - and some part of the price rise MAY be due to that, with people realising that per the contract if they can inflate the price then even if it shuts down they get to keep whatever rise they've managed to achieve.

Buy-backs should be based on what's received for assets - other than for bonds where a fixed price should be determined in advance (or a formula provided allowing calculation of the price).

His contract APPEARS to say that shares will be bought back at 105% AND investors will receive proceeds from selling assets.

Hi TAT, allow me to retort

1% dividends -- I sort of took it as an implied promise, based on the quote:
Since it is a "minimum" expectation, I should be able to look forward to 1% per week. What happens if it goes below 1%? I dunno.

Dilution -- If I remember correctly (and anyone feel free to correct me on this), but dilution happens when additional shares are introduced into the market, which can not only have an effect on the price, but also voting control as well. In this case, 100,000 shares are currently issues and dividends / voting power are divided as such. With the introduction of additional shares (up to 1,000,000), both dividends and voting power are diluted (including stock value, depending on how they're priced).

Repurchases -- Yup, pretty right about that...but it's still really quite odd that you'd promise to repurchase stock when things go sour. It's normal for Bonds and Notes, but certainly not Stocks.

Public Asset List -- Wholly agree with you here. If Sandstorm is hosted on multiple exchanges, I'd like to see holdings on each one complied for Investors. That would be pretty cool

Korbman, you raise some good points, and some that are a little off the mark.

-- The Sandstorm Description does not "promise" or "guarantee" profits, last I checked. He states the yield as goals. I agree that his methods and strategy are left to mystery though...
-- When a fund issues new shares, it does not necessarily dilute the value because the bitcoins gained all belong to the fund. While they may not dilute things, it's possible for him to push down the price if they are overvalued however. Maybe the answer is that he should have included exactly how he will price future releases, and what will trigger him to do so, etc.
-- Regarding your worst-case scenario where Mr. Mutch can't "buy back" the shares in the event of dissolution, one one hand this is a risk for most assets. However, in this case, dissolution should involve the liquidation of assets on behalf of the shareholders, not a buyback.
-- Yes, Mr. Mutch could easily share his BitFunder wallet address so we can verify his holdings via the Public Asset list. He should also make public his BTCT.co portfolio since the allow this. Only Havelock does not have this feature, ironically...

Sandstorm's Goals:
-Release weekly dividends of at least 1% of the capital gathered from public offerings. This is a minimum expectation.

Whoa, so you just buy and sell the stock to yourself until it gets so high it is unreal, then convince him he should shut down the fund and he is contractually obligated to give you 105% of the market price and additionally whatever assets the fund holds. That is a great way to get all the issuer's money, when are we starting?

Sandstorm promises :

"If on the unlikely chance that Sandstorm can't continue:
Shareholders will be fully informed and a suitable replacement for management will be sought after. If this attempt is unsuccessful, shares will be purchased back at 105% of the 7 day average. All remaining assets will be liquidated and distributed to shareholders through dividends."

His contract APPEARS to say that shares will be bought back at 105% AND investors will receive proceeds from selling assets.