Satoshi must be spinning in his grave.

Karartma1

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Quote from: mk4 on January 06, 2021, 01:53:12 AM

Quote from: Marvelman on January 05, 2021, 12:34:27 PM

People still invest in BTC and other cryptocurrencies without really knowing what it's all about, but that may not even matter.

Because it doesn't really matter. As much as people hate FOMO and panic sellers(but mostly panic sellers), both will always exist in any free market, and should be totally expected if you have at least basic knowledge on how markets work.

It seems so easy to get, yet many fail to understand these basic principles. Bitcoin, as an asset, can't be any different from any other asset class we are familiar with.
The biggest difference, la raison d'etre, is all that powers its mechanics: free, open-source, censorship-resistant etc. We said it too many times already.

20kevin20

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Quote from: Lorence.xD on January 06, 2021, 01:56:02 AM

It is possible but to enforce it means that freedom will be removed from the user. You can create a system that is fair, you just haven't thought of it yet or your mind can't comprehend the steps to create one for now. The reason that there will be someone that will want more is because we were cultured in a society that prioritizes materialistic desire rather than personal freedom. I have to agree with OP, the tool that was supposed to fight the traditional system is getting integrated in one.

A monetary system that is decentralized doesn't sound like an impossible idea, but having a completely fair one where greed doesn't take over pretty much does. The only way you could probably achieve it is by not allowing humans to send coins from one to another so that only merchants receive coins, but then what happens is .. Merchants become rich and there you have it: even more greed and power coming from corporations..

As long as the money is being spent, wealth inequality will always exist.

davis196

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

If Satoshi really wanted to NOT make Bitcoin into "another tool for greedy money men",then he just should have made Bitcoin into a stablecoin,just like Tether,or he should have made the Bitcoin supply infinite.
Maybe Satoshi is disappointed with the current state of Bitcoin,or maybe he isn't.Nobody knows.
Are you sure that Satoshi is dead and "spinning in his grave"?Do you have any evidence or you want to just s*it over Bitcoin and Satoshi Nakamoto?

Lorence.xD

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Quote from: 20kevin20 on January 05, 2021, 01:03:13 PM

It's probably impossible to create an uniform, fully fair system unless everyone wants to contribute and earn the same way from it. You can't create a system where fairness is a thing when greed exists. There will always be someone who'll want more. And censoring them is a communist thing to do, so we're left with what we currently have: a monetary system which is as decentralized as it can get.

It is possible but to enforce it means that freedom will be removed from the user. You can create a system that is fair, you just haven't thought of it yet or your mind can't comprehend the steps to create one for now. The reason that there will be someone that will want more is because we were cultured in a society that prioritizes materialistic desire rather than personal freedom. I have to agree with OP, the tool that was supposed to fight the traditional system is getting integrated in one.

mk4

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Quote from: Marvelman on January 05, 2021, 12:34:27 PM

People still invest in BTC and other cryptocurrencies without really knowing what it's all about, but that may not even matter.

Because it doesn't really matter. As much as people hate FOMO and panic sellers(but mostly panic sellers), both will always exist in any free market, and should be totally expected if you have at least basic knowledge on how markets work.

pooya87

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The main purpose of bitcoin has always been to give people sovereignty and it has achieved that well. If some of them choose to use bitcoin to make profit then it is still their choice because of the power they have gotten thanks to bitcoin.
But you are putting your head in the sand by ignoring the fact that there is a lot of adoption is also taking place. Specially each time the price goes up. For example during 2017 we had the most number of new merchants accepting bitcoin and that's during the biggest spam attack (hence highest fees) bitcoin has ever experienced. This year there will be even more.

hatshepsut93

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There's nothing in Satoshi's words that could have classified him as some sort of communist or socialist - he never spoke against wealth or speculative trading. Satoshi's views are actually close to libertarianism, so I'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with Bitcoin being traded on free markets, regardless of who profit from it.

Bitcoin is slowly being more adopted by regular people for their transactions, and Lightning Network could actually achieve what Satoshi wanted - fast and free transactions for everyone, and with strong privacy.

carlfebz2

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

You cant really expect for it not to be used in other way as the creator had target or anticipated.You can create things but expect that there would be

people who would really be opposing on what it should really meant or used for. Instead on getting angry with those people then its better to mind your own business

and make use on what you do believe on how it should really be used for. As long you do make money then that what matter most. Just mind your own and dont
bother on what others been doing.

arwin100

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

Why do you think people are not happy with the current adoption gotten by bitcoin? Many are celebrating for the current achievements what bitcoins get and many holders are now in profits(excuse to those people who buy at FOMO)

But satoshi spinning in his grave? nah I doubt it we don't know on what he is doing right now and I think he doesn't had any bad plans for bitcoins since so far his creation is so successful and it creates a good opportunities to the person who believes on it.

Zionatin

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I don't know about you guys but I lost our on an opportunity to make quite a nice profit. Doge and eth went up so much and I wanted to buy some with funds I got from another currency. Now the currency I have didnt go up in price so I will have to pay more for less eth and doge. Sad

Oh well.

These fees are killing me though. I paid just under $10 and I custom changed the gas amount so it was much lower and it went through quickly. They wanted to charge me $20. That is just absolutely ridiculous. In some countries, people make less than $20 a day. This definitely doesn't feel like "freedom" to me. I have to justify each purchase I ever make since fees are so high. Unless I use doge or ripple but not everyone supports it.

I have even been suing fiat to buy gift cards since the fees are less. It is cheaper for me to sell ripple directly to the exchange and cash out to my bank.

tsaroz

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

But we are not sure what he envisaged for. Bitcoin could have been a experimental project for it's creator but with a limited supply and no way of increasing it, an energy intensive way of running the chain and a fee incentive to make that profitable, considering how well planned his mission was, I assume satoshi probably had the vision for such a future.

witcher_sense

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

It is possible that Satoshi Nakamoto envisioned a completely different future for bitcoin. On the other hand, being a very smart person and knowing human nature very well, he could predict that at first bitcoin would be considered a speculative asset, a get-rich-quick scheme for making easy money by most folks. Part of the reason why bitcoin works and flourishes is because its economic model is based on incentives, bitcoin uses human greed for good, it transforms human vices into something valuable and meaningful. More importantly, despite greed and profit-seeking, people are using and valuing bitcoin because it allows for unstoppable transactions and censorship-free payments, it sets people free, it makes them happy, it gives them hope.

20kevin20

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It's probably impossible to create an uniform, fully fair system unless everyone wants to contribute and earn the same way from it. You can't create a system where fairness is a thing when greed exists. There will always be someone who'll want more. And censoring them is a communist thing to do, so we're left with what we currently have: a monetary system which is as decentralized as it can get.

Marvelman

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Bitcoin is worth as much as people want to pay for it, and dizzying growth shows that people believe it's going to continue to grow. I certainly wasn't expecting this kind of growth, not even remotely, so I didn't even invest much. I'm somewhat familiar with the technical background of the story, and I only see the shortcomings. People still invest in BTC and other cryptocurrencies without really knowing what it's all about, but that may not even matter.

BrewMaster

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There is trouble abrewing

just because some people are here only out of greed to make some quick money from the bitcoin price rise that doesn't mean bitcoin has become a tool for them.
if there are greedy people then it means there are other people too that have been adopting bitcoin for the financial freedom that bitcoin provides for everyone. as a matter of fact majority of bitcoiners are like this because the greedy group don't even stick around and they always lose money that discourages them in long run.

imstillthebest

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

spinning ? thats hilarious 😂 . why ? because of too much joy ? are he happy when someone got scammed .

satoshi isnt like that i dont know him but i can feel that he is a guy that also hates scams but he knows that scams are unavoidable in btc because its online but the world of btc scammers are getting smaller day by day

and scammer arent the only one that is benefiting on this btc but we do and all the btc hodlers and traders .

Karartma1

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

Bitcoin is free in every sense: it can be freely used, it's open-source and everyone is free to contribute, anyone is free to mine it and everybody can run a node. You are free to use it or not. Nobody can stop you because you can use bitcoin anyway you want.

DdmrDdmr

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There are lies, damned lies and statistics. MTwain

High price per bitcoin was even speculated, or at least tossed around as a potential, back in 2009.

After Satoshi announced the release of Bitcoin v0.1, Hal Finney replied, citing amongst other things the following:

Quote

<…>
One immediate problem with any new currency is how to value it. Even
ignoring the practical problem that virtually no one will accept it
at first, there is still a difficulty in coming up with a reasonable
argument in favor of a particular non-zero value for the coins.

As an amusing thought experiment, imagine that Bitcoin is successful and
becomes the dominant payment system in use throughout the world. Then the
total value of the currency should be equal to the total value of all
the wealth in the world. Current estimates of total worldwide household
wealth that I have found range from $100 trillion to $300 trillion. With
20 million coins, that gives each coin a value of about $10 million.

So the possibility of generating coins today with a few cents of compute
time may be quite a good bet, with a payoff of something like 100 million
to 1! Even if the odds of Bitcoin succeeding to this degree are slim,
are they really 100 million to one against? Something to think about...

Hal

https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2009-January/015004.html

Seems to have been on the mind of core people around the beginning, although through Hal’s words.

Note: Hal performed his exercise considering a 20M bitcoin supply. Whether that was a simplification, an oversight (strange, as 21M was mentioned by Satoshi on the post Hal answered to), or due to inner knowledge on 1M bitcoins never being movable (i.e. lost or thrown away keys) is a wonder …

avikz

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Quote from: thirdprize on January 05, 2021, 06:54:45 AM

All that effort and bitcoin becomes just another tool for greedy money men to make money from. This is the complete opposite of what he envisaged. I hope you are all happy. Angry

I don't understand what's the issue with people holding off their bitcoins and using it as an investment! What's the point? At the end of the day, the value of bitcoin matters! People are getting increasingly interested about it and even corporates are holding it as their reserve asset! That's all fine!

I simply don't understand what the problem is? Is it people are not spending bitcoin as a daily currency?

mk4

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You do realize that bitcoin rising in price is totally inevitable when it gains mass adoption, right? Also, when an asset rises in price, in some(or most) cases retail investors get too excited and flood in impulsively. The same also happens in stocks and in other assets. You know why? That's how markets work. 🤷‍♂️

Topic: Satoshi must be spinning in his grave. (Read 339 times)