Topic: Scam Accusation board or merit stealing zone? Comment on the system (Read 525 times)

Lol, It's indeed understood now why the place is how it is. Very few understood what was the logic of this thread. The thread was not created to defend the project or anything as such but was created to highlight how "BLIND" Feedback system works, where a person doesn't bother to CONFIRM things before leaving a feedback, and when asked the said part is that I will check later to review it.

So basically everything is correct, only the person who try to defend/respond is the BIGGEST criminal on the planet earth. But that's obvious because why will anyone prefer to change anything, when they have zero benefit from it? The only people who suffer by it is the ones who are lower rank, so cares about them.

I don't even want to reply to some of the ABOVE message, as it's time waste due to their already built mindset, you can't change mindset of certain class of people.


Well, I never meant people are ganging up AGAINST me, I am pointing out that people added "MERITS", just based upon creation of thread.

Ok some here already said that it takes "EFFORT" to create such threads, but what about the "EFFORTS" one puts to create project (IF Genuine)?

And is there ANY system that can "REMOVE" Merits? What IF the case is proven "WRONG", how does that seems then? Shouldn't that person be "PUNISHED" for false accusation?

Majority here said that you should "TRY" and solve the issue instead of bringing it into notice, but ANYONE explain HOW?

THE OP of that thread did not "REPLIED" what his ACTUAL issue was with us. We asked him that was not having "REFERENCE" was his concern about our Whitepaper, but instead of responding to that, he was repeating same thing again and again, with such attitude and behavior, how exactly do we SOLVE the issue?


I have already given example on the very start, where the person who left "NEGATIVE FEEDBACK" had no time to review anything, but just on the basis of the thread being creation, he was "HUNGRY" to leave FEEDBACK, and that genuine is called "Avirunes"

Some people say that it's "IMPORTANT" to leave feedback early to "HELP" people stop investing, but does that mean leaving "BLIND FEEDBACK"? And like I said many said that it's okay you can always "DELETE" Feedbacks, but how do we delete the damage on reputation? How do we recover the "TRUST" of people who might already sidelined us just because of accusation?

So according to the present situation, you are 99% scammer/fraud and all the terms used by some people above, regardless of everything else.

There are "SOME" threads, where people were able to add every possible document to finally get this of the issue, but when it happened? It happened weeks and weeks AFTER it, which meant there was "ALREADY" damage down to their reputation. And best part is that MOSTLY with such threads, the OP did not even care to write on top that it's solved or anything as such. It was just present on the Title while the whole content stayed the SAME till someone actually "SCROLL" down to understand that the situation was SOLVED.

So basically all efforts are made to ACCUSE someone, after that no one got "ENOUGH" time for anything else. And how can there be "ENOUGH" time, you get MERITS and Appreciation for ACCUSING, but IF you are given that your claim was wrong, you get "NOTHING" instead your reputation dips, so such threads are always tried to be put out of the way for sake of their OWN IMAGE!



Just a COMMON SENSE question, how anyone supports blind feedback? Ok I understand the thread getting opened, because the person checked, but HOW do people who left "MERIT", or leave feedback can give their decision so quickly? And let it be clear, when I say quickly, I mean within "FEW HOURS" not days!

Have you seen my merit? I don't need any merit until 2 years. Because I have earned more than Hero rank but I am still Sr. Member due to lack of activity. For be a Legendary I need more 2 years for activity. Do you understand the merit systems? Your subject really not related with merit system nor someone abusing merit there. I told you don't invite more DT if you are not legit enough. See now, your previous feedback's was two only, now your feedback's from DT's are SIX.

To be honest, I believe you total project is scam. I told you you just spend $370 for create your website and tokens.

I am currently wondering why you are not still banned in this forum?
I find your tags are valid because who does not what plagariasm is, how to put correct references is promoting a business .
Somebody that do not have basic understanding cannot be trusted for running a business.

The purpose of the trust system is to give an assessment of a potential trading partner's ability to trust someone.

It is not uncommon for a scammer to be trying to scam multiple people at a time, and a quick negative rating may prevent additional people from getting scammed after the 1st accusation surfaces if they have not sent the scammer money or property yet, or it will at least cause them to ask questions and take additional precautions to protect themselves.

If you demand a delay in others giving you negative trust once an accusation is made, then others will not be warned. If you have a negative rating immidiately after an accusation surfaces, but before you have had a chance to respond, you can address the situation with anyone you are dealing with privately, and it will be up to them to decide if they want to trust you or not.

If you want to compare the trust system to the legal system, then I would tell you that if there is probable cause that anyone committed a crime, the police can arrest them, and can hold them in jail for a period of time without charging them. The standard of probable cause is very low, but has not been defined by the US Supreme Court to my knowledge. In many jurisdictions, if there is a 51% chance that a crime was committed, the standard of probable cause will have been exceeded.

I do have other concerns about the trust system, but yours is not one of them. If anything, it took too long for a negative rating to be applied, but there may not always be someone reviewing the various marketplace sections, nor the scam accusations sub for this type of thing.

Are you just going to leave it there as just a statement with no observable grounding or continue with a detailed break down of negatives and positives measured against the old system?

I would be interested to see this, and it is surely on topic if we are discussing does the new system work.

Well, its not really a new system, we started being able to leave each other feedback in 2013 or so? Your point on "could it be a problem if people are too hasty leaving feedback" would be more effective if you gave examples where it did occur.  Before the feedback system, people still created scam accusation threads just as freely as now, the only difference was that then Theymos had to personally review each one and decide whether a person would get a scammer tag or not. If you are claiming that people can farm merits by opening scam accusations, I don't know that I'd agree with that. I generally do see valid scam accusations earn merits, but not so much the invalid ones. Its sort of hard to compare back then to now, because Bitcointalk was a fairly uniform discourse community at that point, so things were a bit different, but overall with the exception that people take feedback too seriously, I'd say that it works better than the old system.

No, it is just fine as long as the reference were being mentioned. However, there is a proper way in acknowledging the author of an article or resources by mentioning it usually before or after the statement being rephrased. In our forum it has been observe but not all doing it well for some of the users here are not a native english speakers and some does not have.undergone proper training in English grammar construction. The admin also has extending tolerance to all users here about the problem.

So, it is the discretion of the user's view and opinion here either the user is doing it wrong or right.

So, in my opinion since this is a forum of free discussions for that user is all I can say that the user is just doing fine. It is from the white paper to which the admin of this forum has no jurisdiction over it.

Jetcash fittotalk forum is ideal about solving this kind of problem but I did not see that guy promoting again the forum he/she made for free to all users.

@ OP ...The system does NOT work and can not work.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-most-important-thread-you-can-contribute-to-this-yearno-kidding-5088852

ask me any questions you do not understand .

   Why does someone need 24 hours to assess whether it is true or not whether the white paper of your project is plagiarized or not? It appears the OP of the scam accusation thread made it pretty clear that substantial portions of the white paper are plagiarized. Also, you are not "helpless." Now that it has been pointed out to you that copy/pasting portions of a whitepaper is deemed untrustworthy and unacceptable, you can take corrective action and redo the white paper. Either cite your sources for the large portions of copy/paste content, or have your team make the needed definitions in their own words conveying their own understanding.
  Also, about the OP post getting merit. It's clear that the OP spent time combing over your white paper and checking to see exactly where portions were copied from. Also, it appears that what they are conveying is true since none of your excuses that you give in the thread refute that the material was indeed copied from another source. Anyone giving merit to that post is distributing their merit in the most correct manner possible.

The trust system is not broken, you just don't know how it works.
If you think you are wronged and don't deserve the negative rating, start a thread on the reputation board asking DT members to review your rating. If you bring enough evidences, the one who negged you will have to remove/neutralize his feedback. If he refuses, it is still possible for other DTs to counter it with a positif one.


We are not ganging up on you here, please avoid such provacative replies.

Oh FFS, that has absolutely nothing to do with your issue, and the fact that some posts got merited doesn't mean people are tagging you or ganged up against you in order to earn merits.  That's on you if you're outraged.

Have you never read any of the scam accusations against ICOs and their plagiarized whitepapers?  Just take a look at the Scam Accusation section's first page, and I bet at least half of the threads are about this.  It's that rampant, and lots of people are paying attention to it.  Had you noticed this before putting together your whitepaper you probably would have taken a little more time to state concepts in your own words.  But obviously you did not, and that also is on you.

no they are no treated as "PETS" but as "Scammer".
Did you call a coincidence copy entire periods from other sites?
No this is a bad mistake not only a coincidence.
What have you have created? A copy paste white-paper ready to launch a promising ICO?

Instead of moaning here, how about answering some simple questions on the thread in question?


Err, you are the team.

 

Are you sure about that?


I've checked your ICO yesterday, forget the plagiarized whitepaper, that project is a total scam.
The fake whitepaper, fake firm, fake "gold mines" come on, who the hell is going to believe that crap?


Sorry, no plans on discussing anything before you address the new accusations in the scam section regarding your project.


Maybe I'm getting crazy but it quacks like something else too...

Quacks like a scammer.

What else did I have wrote? I have already mentioned that the ONLY reason I came up with this because of the situation, and understanding how it would feel for people who are treated like "PETS" by certain people.

Ok so did you checked the thing that was pointed, or you just went with the title of Plagiarized Whitepaper? I just want this answer before we can discuss long day further.

Here we go again, the merit Illuminati, the DT tustbangers, the shills of a service I will not quote since are a direct competitor...
Have you read much of "How to make enemies of total strangers" by CH?
The way you speak makes me think you're at least a co-author.


Somebody, somebody, please think of the newbies starting an ICO with a plagiarized whitepaper.

This topic is not about the DT system.
Since it was modified not once have you come to meta to complain but once you've got tagged you suddenly had an epiphany and saw the guiding light that told you all the problems would go away if we stop tagging scammers.

And looking at your project...
One year ago you were doing bounties for 50$ now you have 9 gold mines backing you....the American dream!!!!!!
But with 1$ capital and a registration code that is a zip code.....

Well, you just said what I am trying to say.

This is your part that I am trying to say about people who are accused

"although as humans there could be some flaw & few mistakes but they're doing a good job. Just appeal your case reasonably. A little bit of advice to you, don't forget they're all humans insulting or attacking them won't resolve your tag instead it can get you more negative red tags."

This is what I and many people say them, and some even BEG that kindly show SOME humanity because everyone is human, and often "MISTAKES" are made, which doesn't mean the person or project is scam.

Just imagine it in this way, how much a genuine project put efforts to be successful? If someone accuse them falsely, just imagine the pain they go through, as it's not always about "MONEY" but efforts that are often put up. It is obvious that so many people only start up to scam, but just because of that it means everyone should be seen with same way?

We honestly have little to gain by this because we are already trading and it's really nothing extra for us to gain by doing this but like I said I just want to take stance against these people who find "EASY" targets, because they can't fight or if they try to do NO ONE listens to them, as they obviously can't be right because their forum rating says so.

At no point that we said that the reference adding is "WRONG", we repeatedly asked the OP that tell us that is that your problem with us not giving reference, but instead of replying to that particular point, the whole scene sets around how we copied but no one cares to mention that the thing called copied was for Explaining various aspect of Crypto like what is Blockchain and as such.

So, probably "LAZY" can be the right word, but with such stuff is it so hard to contact us ONCE and see if we can add the reference or on this basis it was enough to DECLARE us "SCAM", that there I am amazed how SHAMELESS certain people are. Leaving "BLIND" feedback, yet act like they are going to star in next Sherlock Homes movie!

And also cheers to those PEOPLE who added "MERITS" within minutes of the thread getting opened. So for those kind hearted people, it was act of kindness to support someone without even knowing much.

All those elected as DT members have all earned it. The new DT system have made it possible to elect new DT members or removed them from DT by detrusting them. You can review their previous contributions to the forum they have all paid their dues although as humans there could be some flaw & few mistakes but they're doing a good job. Just appeal your case reasonably. A little bit of advice to you, don't forget they're all humans insulting or attacking them won't resolve your tag instead it can get you more negative red tags. Present your case with some reasonable point on Reputation board and hopefully you get untagged and if you don't then take it as a lesson learnt and always reference source of copied works no matter how irrelevant you think they are, it makes you look more professional.

I like to begin from the very end. "If your ratings are trash, you'll get voted out eventually.", yes that is true and that by the 3 PEOPLE who I am trying to "EXPOSE", so I am all fine with it. The rating thing was done and dusted long back, I just want people to look at this and take a stand, not for ME but for a lot of people who are not CAPABLE of handling this bullying going on from a fairly decent time! I have made this a priority of mine to ensure every day I check which is their "NEXT" victim, and to put it in front of the community and in particular, the ADMIN!

Now back to the beginning (hope I am not thrashed here to copy "Back to the Future"), as you can't be sure of anything with certain people on this forum.

It's indeed in INTEREST and betterment of everyone when a SCAM is exposed, but is that really what happening? You are trying to justify that leaving a feedback just HOURS after accusation comes is fine? And then to have 2 merits GIFTED just for opening the thread. Is this what you call in "EVERYONES" interest? I believe it's in certain people's interest, not everyone.

Except that it's not up to you.

Views don't correlate to facts (atleast not in your case).
Give me a good example of the problem you're describing. (Which still would be a logical fallacy as merit =/= truth, it's merely a tool towards it (most of the time anyway))

It's in everyone's interest to expose scams, isn't it?


there is no "duty", there is no "legal doctrine" here, everyone on DT is more or less elected by other forum members. You don't join shit, and don't have obligations for anything really.

If your ratings are trash, you'll get voted out eventually.

There is nowhere did I requested to simply discard my case or reverse anything. If you read again, you will realize what I am pointing out.

If I join Police duty, then it's important that I look after every case, because that's the reason I joined. If I can't handle it then I should leave. If any DT Member is not interested in genuinely making this community BETTER and only have time in leaving blind feedback, then I am sorry to tell you he/she doesn't DESERVE the right to be a DT Member.

But it's not just about "FEEDBACK", it's how the system where a person is so irresponsible like Avirunes - https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/avirunes-175302 that he LEFT a review FIRST (within hours of the thread opening) and going to check "LATER", is this the standard set for this feedback system?

And how about your views on the Scam Accusation section itself, is it not turning out to be a FREE MERIT grabbing zone with 90% of the threads getting Merits, regardless of whether the case was "PROVEN" or "NOT-PROVEN".

BTW, I would definitely joining BESTMIXER.IO // BEST BITCOIN MIXER, seems so cool.

Obviously you created this thread because you got negged, thus you can't ask us to simply discard your case as it proves that the trust system is working as it is supposed to be.

I don't know why are you attacking Avirunes! At least he accepted to review his feedback. Other DT members will just ignore your PM because of the number of complaints they receive.

Actually true. I am definitely frustrated, not because of the feedback but because of the "WAY" it was done. I mean, at least give a person 24 HOURS to response. The feedback was put in within 6 hours. But again VERY honestly, the only reason I created this thread is that I want to highlight how "HELPLESS" people like ME become because of certain people who act like Admins.

It can be a good thing when people UNDERSTAND that their actions can HURT people. I am not saying that EVERYONE is innocent new born baby, but what I am saying is at least give people "OPPORTUNITY" to put their views instead of blasting them right away.

While another point that can be seen is that the thread was created and SHORTLY there were 2 people giving MERITS, now honestly anyone tell me HOW can anyone judge something like that and even add MERITS without doing search?

I mean is this not encouraging others to do the same for sake of MERIT? Is this not where personal interest thing comes in?

I haven't looked into your situation yet, but I will and I did notice the negs you got--however, the above statements are plainly false.  You're quite obviously pissed off at your feedback and are indeed seeking the community's opinion about what happened to you, even if it's in an indirect way.  Just be honest about that.  I'm a Meta regular and I've never seen you post here before getting negged, so this thread is all about you.  And that's fine, but not being straight with everybody isn't good.

The trust system isn't new.  The only thing that's new is the fact that a lot more people are on it, and that's what Theymos wants.  I happen to think it's a good thing.

Ok so tell me what about the reputation of the person?

If the feedback is removed after 3-4 days, what is the solution to the damage on the reputation of that person? Is that not important? You said that these things "SAVE" people from possible scams, but in other hand, do you see it "COULD" hurt a genuine project, and give "NIGHTMARES" to already invested people?

Many people claim they are busy right now, if they are so busy then why they bother doing something they don't have time for? Or is it all about the "MERITS" collection?

If I am so eager to make the forum BETTER than should I not be responsible enough towards it?

If I am away for 24/36 hours, and the feedback is already made and seen by many people, so how exactly do I change their mindset? Not everyone got the time to read through all replies.

But like I said the issue is not about scam or people trying to help, the issue IS that people want to get appreciation. As is it not so easy? Majority of the people who get accused will "NOT" response. So that means the OP is CORRECT, and bravo he receives handful "MERITS", as he did a GOOD JOB, even if the thing was right or not.

The remaining people don't know how to deal with it so they give up while some who wish to fight need to deal with TWINS. So eventually there is no way out of this "CIRCUS", since the ONLY person who can make change is "ADMIN" and obviously he is BUSY with WORTHY stuff instead of looking at these things.

You have to understand how the system works, those feedbacks can be deleted whenever those that left it finds you innocent, they are left their to prevent any potential scammers as cases such as plagiarism from ICO projects are handled with seriousness as it can lead to lost of fund. Go to the thread you have been accused in and if you can convince DT members there, your negative feedback would be lifted (deleted) but for now they serve as a warning as you have an accusation on your ICO project.


That's what you get when you choose the right campaign manager to mange your project and he picks the best (quality contributing) candidates to promote the project with decent pay rate.

But I am not pointing towards "TRUST", I am pointing towards the new system which enabled a lot more the power to leave feedback. So, I am not sure how this does not belong here. But anyhow, IF that is true then I request any Moderator to kindly make the shift but I would stick with keeping it here, unless it's shifted by mods.

Ok so basically you mean discussion on Trust system means "NEGATIVE" feedback, please just confirm IF that is what you said or meant.

I have opened this thread PURELY to discuss the system not my problem. The only reason I have given reference here is to show that how people are irresponsible with their powers, how it is misuse.

Just a simple question for you and some others, is opening a thread on Scam Accusation board ENOUGH to "EARN" merits?

Now it certainly should be ENOUGH when "PROVEN", but how is this "ENOUGH" when the thread just opens up. I mean even without waiting for 24 hours (6 hours in the case pointed) or even without a response from the person accused. Is this really how the system is created so that people start giving random feedback right on the moment of any accusation. You can call me THIS or THAT, but explain me the thing I mentioned, should it not be INNOCENT till "PROVEN" guilty? or it runs opposite way in here?


This is EXACTLY my point. I am not even willing to say I am Honest/Innocent, because that's not in my hands to decide but I am just pointing the thing you said.

The thread accusing me was created and within following hours, I had a "NEGATIVE" feedback. Even a murdered get opportunity to response/reply before pushing them into guilty zone, but here with my case I did not even had THAT OPPORTUNITY. The moment the thread was created, my fate was sealed as SCAMMER/CHEATER/FRAUD.

While should it not be responsiblity of the person leaving feedback or opening accusation thread to just ask the person for 1 response before proceeding? Is it not done because people want to get into limelight and get "MERITS"? Is it so easy to damage people's credibility? I know I am a useless JUNIOR but still I do have feelings and reputation that can be HURT!

While once again, it's FINE and sensible to add the feedback AFTER 24 hours and if the response is not there but how exactly is it sensible to leave it straight away?


You don't really deserve a reply given the "LANGUAGE" you used. It's a shame people like you exist in this community and CLAIM to make it better.

So by your logic, we got benefit by explaining people what "BLOCKCHAIN" is!!  

You deserve Oscar award for your logic.

I really don't understand..

You're commiting multiple felonies simply because you're a lazy son of a b*tch copy paster, and yet you have the audacity to somehow think you're above it all, and that the feedback system is at fault here.

All the feedback system did was warn people about yet another copy&paste ICO, with evidence included in the reference links. Anyone at this point can make up their mind whether or not it's credible..


Damn, there's your problem asshole, you're only here looking to steal other people's work and to somehow profit from it. No regards to providing an actual service, or any ethics. (Although ethics, you're straight up ripping off other people's intellectual property, that's theft if not untrustworthy behavior.)

What a shame you're not invited to that party, isn't it?

If there appears to be a credible accusation against someone, it is not inappropriate to leave a provisional rating against the person while they wait for additional information to come out.

If you present evidence to show your innocence, OR the accuser (or anyone else) cannot provide sufficient evidence to show that you are a scammer or that you tried to scam someone (or will likely do so in the future) then the ratings can be removed.

The reason for this is so that others will be warned about dealing with a potential scammer.

Trust isn't moderated by forum, so your topic isn't belongs to Meta. Move your thread on "Reputation" board.

System is working fine for other except few people's. And this subject has been discussed so many time. You might read all other thread by using search button "how working trust system". Most likely you are calling more DT members to leave you more feedback's. You should only open thread if you are legit enough. Otherwise may be your rating will increase more.

I already mentioned, I have not opened it to DISCUSS my problem but the question that I asked about this system. So, do not judge it in reference to my problem.

But just for sake of answering, did you read the thread?

His point is that why we have Blockchain and other general terms in the Whitepaper from different sources. Is it not supposed to be like that?

Many ICOs got such explanation in their FAQs section, so do you think they would give reference to that? Not because no one is trying to COPY as there is no benefit in doing so. The obvious attempt is to explain people the general aspects which a beginner might not understand. Our whitepaper is about the system we had, and that's the part needed to be check if it's genuine or not. Which we repeatedly asked that if he found any issues with that part, but no evidence was provided. Instead we were repeatedly refer to why we have explanation of Blockchain and other aspect from reputed sources.

If the above thing doesn't make sense, then fine we can't really repeat same thing again and again.

Please note it again, this thread is ENTIRELY to discuss the SYSTEM not discuss whether I am RIGHT or WRONG.


We already understood the point made, but like mentioned countless times, there is no obvious benefit we are to gain through it. We were explaining the general technology of Blockchain and other aspects, which again is SIMPLY to guide people in knowing what it is in best possible manner and that via using TOP REPUTED sources. So can you point out ONE benefit we get from it? Many cases on that section comes from people ripping Whitepaper from other ICOs and label it as theirs but there is no such thing with us.

But what to do when the EGO is so large of some people who will NEVER accept it. And why should they? They are getting MERITS for it and more importantly, majority only read the thread's first part, so they look like masters but in reality a person who go through things will understand what they are exactly doing.

BTW BESTMIXER.IO // BEST BITCOIN MIXER seems to be a very popular name, everyone who are handling that section got that Signature only...... Interesting....

Learn to leave reference, if you copied something from another's site make sure you indicate that in your article, post or whatever you're writing if not it'll be considered plagiarism. The problem with your whitepaper was that you copied texts without giving the original creators of those content some credit (link to source/reference).

Regarding if the system is working right, for now it isn't perfect but it has been keepings us safe, helping us identify the scammers and potential scammers since its introduction therefore we can consider the system working right.

Huh, so what's all this about then?

-- https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5126836 --

All that is false? You didn't copy and paste anything from the sites that are linked? It's all a coincidence? What's up with that?

-- http://archive.is/85CGs#selection-245.1-245.685 // Page #3 on your whitepaper, https://mayapreferred.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/MAYP-final-2.pdf (As pointed out by @lovesmayfamilis)
It's right there, how exactly do you refute this? Did the site steal your content somehow, or?

Seems like it's stopping "Get-rich-quick" scammer-esque's like you dead in their tracks, so it does looks like it's working.
Take your garbage coin somewhere else.

Hello everyone, as we know after recent changes by Bitcointalk forum, there is a new system, where a lot of people now got the facility to leave feedback.

So I like to ask the Admin in particular, and other members that is this system really working right and has made this community better?

What I am sharing is NOTHING to do with my issue that I am facing but I have simply opened because a lot of people like me might suffer at the hands of these people who claim that they make this place better, but that's far from it instead they are master at bullying newbies.

Here is the one example -

Avirunes - https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/avirunes-175302

Ariunes as his name! He left the Feedback just on the Basis of seeing the thread is created!

NOTE - the feedback was made within hours of the thread appearing, without even waiting for my response.



He basically had no time to review anything but HAD time to leave the feedback. And why not, who is going to listen to someone newbie like me?

So, I at no way has started this thread because of anger or anything. But I just want to honestly ask the Admin, is this place become BETTER? I know many will say I am Bias because I got feedback, but just check the thread and even other people with how the system is working not just in terms of feedback but people able to EASILY create scam accusation threads. It only take a minute or moment for these people to do it for their own sake and to have "MERITS" easily.

So it would great if Admin just take 1 minute to basically reply to tell whether he feels this is the way it has made this forum better.

Note - I am not asking anyone to give their views on the feedback on me or my problem, I am just asking the views on this SYSTEM whether you guys feel it's working or not.