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Topic: Scammer tag: PatrickHarnett - page 17. (Read 39315 times)

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
November 08, 2012, 06:56:17 PM
For the record, he hasn't been operating for "so long". He has just been slimy, that specific sort of "bro"-ness that has the respective nitwits all enamored. Pirate did the exact same thing. In fact, pretty much all the people that fucked "the community" in the ass with a piece of raw pine did exactly the same thing. Buddy-buddy pays for scammers.
And the people who paid them to do it bear no responsibility whatsoever, right? The people who loaned Patrick money made precisely the same mistake Patrick did. (Assuming Patrick is telling the truth about his default problems, which is plausible but not confirmed.)
No.  The people who loaned Patrick money made the mistake of trusting Patrick.  And Patrick made the mistake of trusting whoever it was claimed to be a PTT.

The people who loaned Patrick money did NOT have a choice of where it was invested.  Because Patrick chose how to invest it, and because he offered a risk-free contract (i.e., a set payback amount and period, not a payback based on whether his investments panned out or not), Patrick is liable to his investors for the FULL amount that he promised he would pay.

Patrick could have said "if the investments I am investing this money in default, then you will not be repaid", but he made no such specification in his contract.  All he did was promise a certain payback over a certain period of time.  And that's exactly what he should be held liable to.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
November 08, 2012, 06:40:12 PM
For the record, he hasn't been operating for "so long". He has just been slimy, that specific sort of "bro"-ness that has the respective nitwits all enamored. Pirate did the exact same thing. In fact, pretty much all the people that fucked "the community" in the ass with a piece of raw pine did exactly the same thing. Buddy-buddy pays for scammers.
And the people who paid them to do it bear no responsibility whatsoever, right? The people who loaned Patrick money made precisely the same mistake Patrick did. (Assuming Patrick is telling the truth about his default problems, which is plausible but not confirmed.)
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
November 08, 2012, 06:28:26 PM
Seems like you should put this effort in to working something out with Patrick vs. crying about it in the forums....

I don't understand the logic of "let's negotiate with the scammer". What's the value proposition, does it go something like
I think it's because it's black and white for some people, while white and black for others, which makes for a heated, lengthy thread topic.  Nothing special about Patrick - the situation he is in is just special.

No, I fully agree with Zeeks. There's a little sewing circle, Nitwits United or something like that. The benefits of social media.

For the record, he hasn't been operating for "so long". He has just been slimy, that specific sort of "bro"-ness that has the respective nitwits all enamored. Pirate did the exact same thing. In fact, pretty much all the people that fucked "the community" in the ass with a piece of raw pine did exactly the same thing. Buddy-buddy pays for scammers.


Well no.. But something is better than nothing. no?
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
November 08, 2012, 06:02:05 PM

In fact it has been long established legal practice (where "long" means > 100 years) in both civil and common law that any exchange which shows agreement between businessmen of the sort they would normally employ in the usual course of their trade is sufficient and binding as a contract. These aren't retail investors dealing here.

You are clever only to do claims. As I had already admitted, you fail to understand the meaning of evidence. Since you only have a IRC log, that does not count as contract, but as evidence for a mutual agreement. Without a physical or digital signature from both parties, there is not a method to determine if both parties have changed the contract after the initial agreement. That means you or Patrick cannot prove which party is providing the legitimate contract.

Do you like old books? I suggest you read this before you send another 500 Bitcoins to an Internet user:

Handbook of the law of contracts (Open Library)

http://www.archive.org/stream/lawrencecontracts00clar#page/n3/mode/2up

I actually have an old book on contract law, and yes, I love old books, being that I own quite a few.  You would be surprised what you can get for under $10 on Amazon if you know what your looking for.  

In regards to this, we need to understand that we have no regulations other than this forum and people's personal knowledge of different events.  Kinda like a social credit rating.  I read the response above from the OP, thank you for your reply.   I understand what you are saying and if you feel that strongly about the issue then I can see why you think the "Scammer" tag is appropriate.   I did not know his debt was that large (BTC20K ~ can someone verify this?).   I have been doing some reading on here and at least from what I have seen, there is no doubt he is in "Default" and the mods should have this tag available in conjunction with "Scammer".  

I still don't think the bar has been met to apply the latter.   It just doesn't seem that much of a no-brainer....at this point.   If it was a slam dunk, I mean he has truly disappeared or didn't immediately starting paying back debts, I would agree with you.

Outstanding Question in my mind:  I would like to hear more about Patrick's deposit guarantee, what stipulations it had and what "his" explanation why he got so leveraged that he didn't keep up with his deposit guarantee.   I will say this, why I was looking at all the offers out there, that guarantee was the most attractive offer available at that point, he did seem to have his s**t together, I knew there was risk though, because I knew he was speculating & lending and I figured some of the people were not the best of character.   What I also figured is that he knew what he was doing and he was the least risky of the bunch, but if you had to ask me what his rating was that would make it the highest at that point... rating:  BBB-
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
November 08, 2012, 04:54:47 PM
Cool - I can play that game too.

(...)

I rest my case.

Rest well, because all you did was not to provide any evidence which indicates that IRC logs are accepted as direct evidence to determine that a contract was signed, even less that any court of law have relied on IRC logs to determine the legitimacy of a contract.

All quotes you posted does not substantiate MPOE-PR claims.

In fact it has been long established legal practice (where "long" means > 100 years) in both civil and common law that any exchange which shows agreement between businessmen of the sort they would normally employ in the usual course of their trade is sufficient and binding as a contract. These aren't retail investors dealing here.

You are clever only to do claims. As I had already admitted, you fail to understand the meaning of evidence. Since you only have a IRC log, that does not count as contract, but as evidence for a mutual agreement. Without a physical or digital signature from both parties, there is not a method to determine if both parties have changed the contract after the initial agreement. That means you or Patrick cannot prove which party is providing the legitimate contract.

Do you like old books? I suggest you read this before you send another 500 Bitcoins to an Internet user:

Handbook of the law of contracts (Open Library)

http://www.archive.org/stream/lawrencecontracts00clar#page/n3/mode/2up
The only point I was setting out to prove is that any agreement, with or without signature, can be upheld as a contract in a court of law.  That includes handshake agreements, verbal agreements, and written agreements (and yes, IRC logs as well, since they are "written").  Proving identities might be tricky, but as long as that is done, any written agreement (which this certainly qualifies as one) can be upheld as a contract.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 504
November 08, 2012, 04:34:19 PM
Cool - I can play that game too.

(...)

I rest my case.

Rest well, because all you did was not to provide any evidence which indicates that IRC logs are accepted as direct evidence to determine that a contract was signed, even less that any court of law have relied on IRC logs to determine the legitimacy of a contract.

All quotes you posted does not substantiate MPOE-PR claims.

In fact it has been long established legal practice (where "long" means > 100 years) in both civil and common law that any exchange which shows agreement between businessmen of the sort they would normally employ in the usual course of their trade is sufficient and binding as a contract. These aren't retail investors dealing here.

You are clever only to do claims. As I had already admitted, you fail to understand the meaning of evidence. Since you only have a IRC log, that does not count as contract, but as evidence for a mutual agreement. Without a physical or digital signature from both parties, there is not a method to determine if both parties have changed the contract after the initial agreement. That means you or Patrick cannot prove which party is providing the legitimate contract.

Do you like old books? I suggest you read this before you send another 500 Bitcoins to an Internet user:

Handbook of the law of contracts (Open Library)

http://www.archive.org/stream/lawrencecontracts00clar#page/n3/mode/2up
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
November 08, 2012, 04:29:10 PM
Seems like you should put this effort in to working something out with Patrick vs. crying about it in the forums....

I don't understand the logic of "let's negotiate with the scammer". What's the value proposition, does it go something like
I think it's because it's black and white for some people, while white and black for others, which makes for a heated, lengthy thread topic.  Nothing special about Patrick - the situation he is in is just special.

No, I fully agree with Zeeks. There's a little sewing circle, Nitwits United or something like that. The benefits of social media.

For the record, he hasn't been operating for "so long". He has just been slimy, that specific sort of "bro"-ness that has the respective nitwits all enamored. Pirate did the exact same thing. In fact, pretty much all the people that fucked "the community" in the ass with a piece of raw pine did exactly the same thing. Buddy-buddy pays for scammers.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
November 08, 2012, 03:58:16 PM
I have been looking through a lot of old threads, being newish myself here. I had read the forums a bit while I read the technicals about Bitcoin before actually signing up though.

Seems like PatrickHarnett gets some special consideration among all those called into question, a few others have too. Seems like there is some sort of inner circle action going on here...

Is it because he has been around and operating for so long? It seems like there is a long history with this community continuing to trust someone even as others cast founded suspicions and doubts upon them and their actions. As the many suspicious things pile up until they ultimately disappear from the community with a large wallet of Bitcoins and then all the people who had defended them before lament that they never saw it coming and how surprising it was.

This appears to be fairly self destructive. Or at least, a self-perpetuating atmosphere of scamming even if those in question did not set out to scam anyone in the first place since as the issues pile up it becomes better to just grab everything and run as there is never any penalty for it other than a very late "scammer tag" on this forum. They probably just come back under a new name to start a new business too because why not? No one ever finds out they are a dangerous business partner until it's too late.
I think it's because it's black and white for some people, while white and black for others, which makes for a heated, lengthy thread topic.  Nothing special about Patrick - the situation he is in is just special.
full member
Activity: 180
Merit: 100
November 08, 2012, 03:54:48 PM
I have been looking through a lot of old threads, being newish myself here. I had read the forums a bit while I read the technicals about Bitcoin before actually signing up though.

Seems like PatrickHarnett gets some special consideration among all those called into question, a few others have too. Seems like there is some sort of inner circle action going on here...

Is it because he has been around and operating for so long? It seems like there is a long history with this community continuing to trust someone even as others cast founded suspicions and doubts upon them and their actions. As the many suspicious things pile up until they ultimately disappear from the community with a large wallet of Bitcoins and then all the people who had defended them before lament that they never saw it coming and how surprising it was.

This appears to be fairly self destructive. Or at least, a self-perpetuating atmosphere of scamming even if those in question did not set out to scam anyone in the first place since as the issues pile up it becomes better to just grab everything and run as there is never any penalty for it other than a very late "scammer tag" on this forum. They probably just come back under a new name to start a new business too because why not? No one ever finds out they are a dangerous business partner until it's too late.
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
November 08, 2012, 03:31:17 PM
WhO? Spongebob or pirate?
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
November 08, 2012, 03:30:00 PM
@ MPOE-PR - Bottomline, you need to prove the intention of scamming you.   If you calling for a Scammer tag because two parties took "risk" in trusting each other and the debtor made bad choices with an investment, DOES NOT mean it is a scam.  You may not like the decision but at the time you made the deposited the coins, you trusted that person judgement.   Nothing you say, even with insults changes that fact. 

Yes he is in "default" at this time but you continue to claim something much more nefarious.   If you want that to stick, you need to come with more proof and is verifiable in some manner. 


Public Disclosure:  I do not or am not owed any debt to PatrickHarnett.   I have talk to him once offline about a business project I was working on that was un-related to any lenders or securities that are in default.

Right, all I have is circumstantial evidence. That happens to be all we'll ever have, in this case and in absolutely any other. Not like someone's going to uncover PatrickHarnett's signed confession.

For the record, there's still people who believe pirate was a stand-up guy and "it wasn't proven he was a scammer". And there's some brainies chipping in to buy Nefario flowers.

What can I tell you....

You need to read up on contract law then.  Anything written can count as a valid contract.  Heck, even a verbal or handshake agreement can be a contract, and enforceable in court.  The only thing that needs to be done is the contract has to be proven.  IRC logs can server that purpose, as can emails, recorded telephone conversations, etc.

In fact it has been long established legal practice (where "long" means > 100 years) in both civil and common law that any exchange which shows agreement between businessmen of the sort they would normally employ in the usual course of their trade is sufficient and binding as a contract. These aren't retail investors dealing here.

Yeah, not sure why anyone would of had any faith in Pirate after he had lied so often......... ^ sorry to hear you lost some coins...... 500 btc? would you really want someone to sell there house over 5 grand?....

You're aware the guy ran off with about 20k btc right?

hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
November 08, 2012, 03:28:08 PM
Well if all you can do is go to court... Then go blow 10 grand to recover 5......



Seems like you should put this effort in to working something out with Patrick vs. crying about it in the forums....


legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
November 08, 2012, 03:23:00 PM
Cool - I can play that game too.

Quote
Believe it or not, the old-fashioned "handshake" began as a means for two people to assure one another that neither was carrying a weapon. Over the years, this simple gesture has evolved into a contractual symbol—or a guarantee—for an oral agreement. But in an era of phone-book sized contracts, fine print and legal battles, does time-honored handshake deal still carry any weight?

The answer is yes—as long as you can prove it in court.

http://www.legalzoom.com/business-law/contract-law/oral-contracts-do-they-carry

Quote
If an e-mail or chain of e-mails clearly states an offer for entering into a deal with all of the material terms and the other side responds by e-mail accepting the terms, then there's a good chance that a valid contract has been formed — even though no signatures have been exchanged. So be careful. If all you intend is to negotiate the issues leading to a formal written and signed contract accepted by both parties, make sure you say that in your e-mails.


http://www.allbusiness.com/legal/contracts-agreements/2378-1.html#ixzz2BfGZbzPE

Quote
Generally, oral or verbal contracts are indeed legally enforceable, but there's a fundamental problem: how do you prove what was agreed upon? That's why written contracts are far more useful, because everything's down in, well, black and white.
Read more at http://www.askdavetaylor.com/are_verbal_contracts_legally_enforceable.html#giafXjivC7k2GBuK.99

http://www.askdavetaylor.com/are_verbal_contracts_legally_enforceable.html

I rest my case.
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 504
November 08, 2012, 03:13:49 PM
You need to read up on contract law then.  Anything written can count as a valid contract.  Heck, even a verbal or handshake agreement can be a contract, and enforceable in court.  The only thing that needs to be done is the contract has to be proven.  IRC logs can server that purpose, as can emails, recorded telephone conversations, etc.

The only thing an official signed contract does is makes it easier to enforce, especially when it comes to the nitty-gritty details.  But from what was said in IRC, this is easily an enforceable contract in which Patrick promised to pay back interest on a loan, and has failed to do so.

Unless Patrick repays the loan, he absolutely SHOULD be called a scammer.  He has an obligation to pay, because he said he would.

http://common.laws.com/contract-law

Quote
The most important feature of contract law is that one party must make an offer for an agreement that the other party accepts. When the agreement is made tangible through a signature, the agreement takes the form of a legally-binding document.

http://signaturecapture.com/laws.htm

Quote
For an electronically signed document to be enforceable in court, it must meet the requirements for legal contracts in addition to the electronic signature guidelines specified in the appropriate laws (e.g. UETA, ESIGN, etc.). According to ESIGN, an electronic signature is "an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically associated with a contract or other record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record." In contract law, signatures serve the following general purposes:

Evidence: authenticates agreement by identifying the signer with a mark attributable to the signer that itself is capable of authentication

Ceremony: act of signing calls attention to the legal significance of the act, preventing ‘inconsiderate engagements’

Approval: express approval or authorization per terms of agreement

http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/writing-and-signature-requirements-for-a-valid-contract.html

Quote
Handwritten, stamped, engraved, electronic pen, and photocopied signatures are all generally adequate to validate a contract unless the circumstances of the contract indicate otherwise.  Some states indicate a simple mark or “x” is sufficient as a signature, but if this is an issue in a case, courts will look at all the facts to determine whether both parties intended to enter into the contract.  Electronic and email signatures are now valid, but the exact requirements of electronic signatures vary from state to state.

http://www.australiancontractlaw.com/law/formation-formalities.html

Quote
The following discussion is based on complying with the formalities required by s 126 of the Instruments Act 1958 (Vic). The easiest way to comply with the formalities requirements in this provision is simply to enter into a written contract signed by both parties. This is not, however, essential. It is sufficient if there is a memorandum or note of the agreement (this might, for example, be as informal as a diary note or letter) and it is only necessary for the party against whom action is being brought to have signed it. The note or memorandum must, however, contain all the material terms (eg, identity, subject matter, consideration).
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
November 08, 2012, 12:26:05 PM
You transferred 500 Bitcoins to Patrick and did not require a signed contract to secure or to determine both parties obligations? Is that the way you handle your stock exchange business?

If you think an IRC log represents a legitimate contract, you have completely failed.
You need to read up on contract law then.  Anything written can count as a valid contract.  Heck, even a verbal or handshake agreement can be a contract, and enforceable in court.  The only thing that needs to be done is the contract has to be proven.  IRC logs can server that purpose, as can emails, recorded telephone conversations, etc.

The only thing an official signed contract does is makes it easier to enforce, especially when it comes to the nitty-gritty details.  But from what was said in IRC, this is easily an enforceable contract in which Patrick promised to pay back interest on a loan, and has failed to do so.

Unless Patrick repays the loan, he absolutely SHOULD be called a scammer.  He has an obligation to pay, because he said he would.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1026
Mining since 2010 & Hosting since 2012
November 08, 2012, 11:58:58 AM
@ MPOE-PR - Bottomline, you need to prove the intention of scamming you.   If you calling for a Scammer tag because two parties took "risk" in trusting each other and the debtor made bad choices with an investment, DOES NOT mean it is a scam.  You may not like the decision but at the time you made the deposited the coins, you trusted that person judgement.   Nothing you say, even with insults changes that fact. 

Yes he is in "default" at this time but you continue to claim something much more nefarious.   If you want that to stick, you need to come with more proof and is verifiable in some manner. 


Public Disclosure:  I do not or am not owed any debt to PatrickHarnett.   I have talk to him once offline about a business project I was working on that was un-related to any lenders or securities that are in default.
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
November 08, 2012, 10:31:01 AM

Yeah, not sure why anyone would of had any faith in Pirate after he had lied so often......... ^ sorry to hear you lost some coins...... 500 btc? would you really want someone to sell there house over 5 grand?....

Where I am currently living, bankruptcy is publicly announced and divulged in any job application (killing your career forever). For someone in Patrick's profession, bankruptcy results in legally-mandated termination and permanent ineligibly for future employment. The societal attitude, if anything, is that this punishment is much too lenient.

Whether you think Patrick should fork over his house or not depends on cultural values.


Must depend where you live....
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
November 08, 2012, 10:18:22 AM
But I think we all agree that a person who borrows some Bitcoins fully intending to pay them back but then can't pay them back (say they lost their job) deserves a scammer tag.

So why on earth doesn't Harnett then?

I thought your argument was that Harnett's lenders are equally to blame for any problems they have experienced due to his default because they should have done more due diligence before lending to him.

Surely that would apply in this case too?

In my opinion, a person who borrows a handful of coins and then can't pay them back due to unforeseen circumstances is much more deserving of trust, compassion and leniency than someone who starts up a commercial enterprise that is based on borrowing coins that goes into default based on poor investments

It's Harnett that should be called to account for his lack of due diligence. He was in the business of lending out other people's money for his own profit, and therefore should be held to a higher standard.
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1003
November 08, 2012, 08:55:37 AM

Yeah, not sure why anyone would of had any faith in Pirate after he had lied so often......... ^ sorry to hear you lost some coins...... 500 btc? would you really want someone to sell there house over 5 grand?....

Where I am currently living, bankruptcy is publicly announced and divulged in any job application (killing your career forever). For someone in Patrick's profession, bankruptcy results in legally-mandated termination and permanent ineligibly for future employment. The societal attitude, if anything, is that this punishment is much too lenient.

Whether you think Patrick should fork over his house or not depends on cultural values.
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 502
November 08, 2012, 08:34:30 AM
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