smooth in your estimation is the addition of payment methods Dwolla (assuming I pass their KYC) and integration with Bitinsanity via the blockchain.info free service too small of a diminishing return relative to me needing to get on an airplane to return the land of "no fly lists" to renew my driver's license (and other residency status matters) so I can qualify for Paypal's (or Moneybooker's) KYC?
One thing that bothers me is being abroad and then some arbitrary demand. I've heard sometimes they demand you show utility bills in addition to a driver's license. I suppose they might even require you to be physically present at some point. Just seems like a potential sinkhole. Or am I exaggerating?
I am thinking to find a way to launch my project asap, then hopefully after proving its popularity, I can find a way to process credit cards such as perhaps someone partners with me to do the KYC (or find some efficient way that doesn't require me to fly back to USA).
Topic: Seamless ecommerce sell to credit cards & receive Bitcoin? - page 2. (Read 4344 times)
I always enjoy debating with smooth. I always get some useful result from it. As well find it intellectually challenging and it usually brings me to humor at some point or the feeling of gentleman's brawl and heading for a beer afterwards.
We rarely disagree, only we sometimes need to clarify what the facts are, then we agree usually.
We rarely disagree, only we sometimes need to clarify what the facts are, then we agree usually.
I look forward to that beer someday.
Stick to working on your useful project and don't waste too much time here.
I must admit I am out of the loop on Coinbase, because I balk at anything that asks for KYC.
For me, localbitcoins is the international face of Bitcoin, because no KYC, e.g. it is available here in the Philippines.
Perhaps I am only seeing what 5 - 10% of the market sees. I am surely not mainstream USA any more (shudder the Frankenstein it has become).
For me, localbitcoins is the international face of Bitcoin, because no KYC, e.g. it is available here in the Philippines.
Perhaps I am only seeing what 5 - 10% of the market sees. I am surely not mainstream USA any more (shudder the Frankenstein it has become).
I always enjoy debating with smooth. I always get some useful result from it. As well find it intellectually challenging and it usually brings me to humor at some point or the feeling of gentleman's brawl and heading for a beer afterwards.
We rarely disagree, only we sometimes need to clarify what the facts are, then we agree usually.
We rarely disagree, only we sometimes need to clarify what the facts are, then we agree usually.
"submitted 1 year ago"
I don't know how common this is, nor whether these sorts of delays used to be common.
All I can tell you is that I've bought from several different Bitpay merchants over the past year, using three different wallets (one of them Coinbase -- hard to get more "average person" than that) and they've all worked the same way. Bitpay invoice comes up, I pay it, Bitpay shows paid, merchant site shows paid, all within a few seconds.
Smooth, btw thanks I think I will contact blockchain.info and ask them why they can't sniff txs and callback before 1 confirmation. Their documention seems to indicate they are not. That is orthogonal to whether these credit card -> BTC services are worthwhile or not.
It may be that their api is run off a blockchain database and doesn't include unconfirmed tx, I'm not sure. Their web blockchain explorer certainly shows them though, so it would be an odd omission if they don't offer that in their API.
It could also be they are trying to protect merchants from themselves by excluding them from the receive payments api, in that some merchants who accepted zero confirm transactions would be doing something dangerous (depending on the nature of the product).
I had the exact same thoughts. Also I only perused the main page, so perhaps there is some more detailed API documentation I need to read which may provide the feature.
Actually I had thought about that when I was reading the main page, but I didn't prioritize that I should ask them about 0-confirmation callback. With you emphasizing that the ad hoc network is propagating most txs, pushes me to prioritize that inquiry. Thanks.
As well, why would I bother for such a small amount of BTC?
Because you seem confused about what is going on with Bitcoin commerce when you say things like:
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That is the most piece of shit system I've ever seen. A merchant is suicidal if they are using Bitpay. They will get so many complaints from customers who don't know WTF happened.
That is not my experience with Bitpay at all, as a customer, doing the sorts of things average people do (i.e. buying stuff).
Because you are not doing it the way average people do when they choose to use localbitcoins which is apparently a very popular site.
Do you think I am the only person who had that experience? I find that very very unlikely.
Characterizing it as me being confused is condescending. I am aligning my understanding with the fact that it never happens for credit cards, so if it is happening with a popular option, then it reflects a severe relative weakness. I can only imagine how many people abandoned Bitcoin because of that. You choose to say those are outliers and thus say I am confused about the "real" way it works. I say you are not being realistic. I am not the only person with that experience.
As well, why would I bother for such a small amount of BTC?
Because you seem confused about what is going on with Bitcoin commerce when you say things like:
Quote
That is the most piece of shit system I've ever seen. A merchant is suicidal if they are using Bitpay. They will get so many complaints from customers who don't know WTF happened.
That is not my experience with Bitpay at all, as a customer, doing the sorts of things average people do (i.e. buying stuff).
Can you please explain to your average person what "debug" means?
I wasn't addressing the average person, I was addressing a programmer who is apparently building some kind of Bitcoin-based commerce system. You might want to try these kinds of things to see what is actually going on in the system instead of relying on your experience with a domain registrar site. Or at least try a bunch of other Bitpay sites. Because I have and they all did zero-conf within a few seconds. Very user-friendly.
Precisely I choose to share the experience of the average person, because I know if I want to make million user products then I need to understand their needs.
That is one of the things that I do different than most nerds. I live amongst the normal people. That gives me insights.
As well, why would I bother for such a small amount of BTC? I am not intellectually curious, because I know already how Bitcoin works conceptually and I understand what is possible and what is ad hoc. Your experience doesn't serve any need. I am looking at how to change the world, not fart around in geek land with small adoption rates.
Add: perhaps I haven't tried enough sites that accept Bitcoin. But in any case, I've never had such horrible experiences with purchasing by credit card. So the coverage of Bitcoin is not reliable.
Your assertion of how it works is obviously false. Just declaring that localbitcoins is not a real wallet doesn't make the reality disappear.
At best it is a lousy wallet. Yes, I've used it. It's very slow, and unpredictably so (unless the counterparty is a localbitcoin wallet, in which case it is offchain and instant).
If you run your own node and watch the debug logs you can see the transaction arrive right away.
Can you please explain to your average person what "debug" means?
I wasn't addressing the average person, I was addressing a programmer who is apparently building some kind of Bitcoin-based commerce system. You might want to try these kinds of things to see what is actually going on in the system instead of relying on your experience with a domain registrar site. Or at least try a bunch of other Bitpay sites. Because I have and they all did zero-conf within a few seconds. Very user-friendly.
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or Bitpay is sniffing transactions at major pools
No that's not how it works at all. They are probably connected to major pools, yes, and this helps them know that the transaction is widely propagated, but you can sniff it off the p2p anywhere, usually within 1-2 seconds. If you run your own node and watch the debug logs you can see the transaction arrive right away.
The risk to the merchant is that the transaction never makes it into a block, but that is not seen by customers for most Bitpay transactions (I'll admit domain registration might be different -- that is not something I've done with bitcoin).
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Localbitcoins is I think sending it. It may have something to do with not including a tx fee. Who knows! Bitcoin sucks! (e.g. tx fee unreliability)
I have no idea what localbitcoins is doing.
Get a real wallet and try again. You realize that if you don't have the private keys you don't have Bitcoin right?
Unless the txs are not P2P propagated because the tx fee was insufficient. I don't know if that is what is happening or not. There is nothing in the Bitcoin protocol that requires peers to propagate txs which they themselves will refuse to include in the next block if they win it. I have no idea what ad hoc result we have.
Localbitcoins is a real wallet. Sorry you have your head in the sand. The masses are going to use it, thus it is real from their perspective. Bitcoin is broken from their perspective.
Your assertion of how it works is obviously false. Just declaring that localbitcoins is not a real wallet doesn't make the reality disappear.
If you run your own node and watch the debug logs you can see the transaction arrive right away.
Can you please explain to your average person what "debug" means?
You realize that if you don't have the private keys you don't have Bitcoin right?
You didn't learn anything from Mt.Gox and Coinbase about reality versus delusion?
People don't care! They use the easiest and most readily available method.
I can't even keep track of my underwear and you think I want to put some private keys on a USB stick for some < $1000 of BTC?
Hopefully investors have learned not to put $100,000 of BTC private keys on a server.
There are actually very few types of transactions that can't tolerate a short delay between order placement and final delivery.
Agreed. Distinguishing between "physical ship" (or irreversible state) on 0-confirmation and order confirmation (or access to 0-cost virtual goods) on 0-confirmation, then my point was the former.
One of the main points of my OP, is that merchants aren't able to easily integrate with "order confirmation on 0-confirmation" for these credit card -> Bitcoin providers. Ditto apparently Blockchain.info's new payment API.
Smooth, btw thanks I think I will contact blockchain.info and ask them why they can't sniff txs and callback before 1 confirmation. Their documention seems to indicate they are not. That is orthogonal to whether these credit card -> BTC services are worthwhile or not.
It may be that their api is run off a blockchain database and doesn't include unconfirmed tx, I'm not sure. Their web blockchain explorer certainly shows them though, so it would be an odd omission if they don't offer that in their API.
It could also be they are trying to protect merchants from themselves by excluding them from the receive payments api, in that some merchants who accepted zero confirm transactions would be doing something dangerous (depending on the nature of the product).
Quote
or Bitpay is sniffing transactions at major pools
No that's not how it works at all. They are probably connected to major pools, yes, and this helps them know that the transaction is widely propagated, but you can sniff it off the p2p anywhere, usually within 1-2 seconds. If you run your own node and watch the debug logs you can see the transaction arrive right away.
The risk to the merchant is that the transaction never makes it into a block, but that is not seen by customers for most Bitpay transactions (I'll admit domain registration might be different -- that is not something I've done with bitcoin).
Quote
Localbitcoins is I think sending it. It may have something to do with not including a tx fee. Who knows! Bitcoin sucks! (e.g. tx fee unreliability)
I have no idea what localbitcoins is doing.
Get a real wallet and try again. You realize that if you don't have the private keys you don't have Bitcoin right?
But also note that unless I have my own merchant account, the customer is going to be subject to variable verification results with any third party credit card processing company I use, because their verification model applies to all their merchants, not just my profile. (and other least common denominator bullshit too, because of shit like what Paypal does where they blame the innocent party for complicity in the fraud and so suddenly a month's worth of sales are frozen and your customers can't pay)
This needs to be further emphasized, because actually using a credit card processor that has very lax verification actually ends up costing you as the merchant, because you get blamed for their inability to squelch fraud.
Suddenly you find they are placing restrictions on you, demanding you provide further documentation of transactions, demanding more extensive KYC documentation, raising your holdback percentages, increasing your fees, etc..
This can even force you to change your business model to make your product essentially available for free so that people aren't enticed to do fraud to access what you are selling. And you can only weakly upsell instead. I am being a little bit over dramatic, but some businesses may find the bottom line pushing them to an ad-sponsored model instead.
Thus the cost of the increased verification procedures may not be as relatively onerous as you might initially assume. It also depends on the capabilities of the merchant.
Fine tuning these variables with your own merchant account is for larger capital businesses. A small outfit with lower economy-of-scale is at a distinct disadvantage.
Smooth, btw thanks I think I will contact blockchain.info and ask them why they can't sniff txs and callback before 1 confirmation. Their documention seems to indicate they are not. That is orthogonal to whether these credit card -> BTC services are worthwhile or not.
Finally, I'll point out one other contradiction in your reasoning. All of this extra "verification" you keep bringing up is anything but "seamless" (your word) for the customer. It is a very inefficient and expensive way to do e-commerce, which is why most normal sites don't do it (not because they, too, don't face some fraud risk). Every extra step in completing a purchase has an abandonment rate, which are cumulative and greatly increase cost of customer acquisition.
Agreed. But also note that unless I have my own merchant account, the customer is going to be subject to variable verification results with any third party credit card processing company I use, because their verification model applies to all their merchants, not just my profile. (and other least common denominator bullshit too, because of shit like what Paypal does where they blame the innocent party for complicity in the fraud and so suddenly a month's worth of sales are frozen and your customers can't pay)
Moreover (and especially since your point is about attribution rate), integrating with more payment providers gives customers more options when they are declined by another provider. Thus given I am unable to quickly accept credit cards the normal way (for the reasons I stated in a prior post), then I can start with these options I have proposed in this thread.
Other ecommerce sites might which were able to prioritize regular credit card processing, instead add these other options as an added option, and not as their first option.
In either case, there can be widespread demand for the options I have proposed. Especially from those merchants who want to help drive adoption of Bitcoin and crypto-currencies. Don't dismiss the importance of social value aspects. Humans are not only motivated by the bottom line profit, e.g. see Pair.com's "green" initiative (which makes me puke since I know anthropocentric climate change is a lie but any way Lol).
And this can be free referrals and advertising for this service providers I linked to. Thus I think it should be a "no brainer" decision for them barring any unforeseen issues we have not enumerated. I note they have affiliate programs, so this can be another source of income for the merchant (albeit probably a very minor increment).
I understand the point of diminishing returns, but I found in my past experience that having a second payment option added about 15 - 20% to download software sales. It might be even greater now given the level of fraud on the internet being greater and more sophisticated.
Also I think the verification procedure at Bitinsanity might in some cases require no special action for the user. Even phone callbacks are becoming quite common place now, e.g. signing up a new gmail account, so users are getting used to do these things quickly.
Also accepting Bitcoin, causes word of mouth advertising and good will. I think some users spend more when you accept Bitcoin. I surely would have never changed domain registrars except for the fact that my prior one refused to accept Bitcoin.
I understand accepting Bitcoin is orthogonal to integrating with ways to buy and pay in Bitcoin more seamlessly from credit cards and bank accounts (via Dwolla). But if going to bother integrating with that new blockchain.info API that I linked to, then might as well offer these other options too.
Spread the love around when it is not a unjustifiable diminishing return. I think generally it works as a paradigm.
For something like a dating site, you are far better off just taking credit cards directly, not putting extra obstacles in the way of the customer. As you already pointed out, your risk from chargebacks is limited, since your cost to deliver the server is low to nonexistent. By introducing BTC into the middle of the process you are making it worse.
As I explained above, not entirely true. Yes indeed it would be best to eventually take credit cards directly if I can. But the other options have benefits any way, and I have to do the work first that I can do. If can't do the credit cards first, then do what I can do and build from there.
And I for a fact I am not the only person in that circumstance. Google statistics for example on percentage of people in the UK who have no credit card to get some feel for the fact that a lot of people probably can't readily qualify to accept credit card payments or they may have ongoing issues with compliance with ongoing escalation of documentary requirements (e.g. the Paypal bullshit example).
they see it on the p2p
I was editing while you were in the process of replying.
or Bitpay is sniffing transactions at major pools
Localbitcoins is I think sending it. It may have something to do with not including a tx fee. Who knows! Bitcoin sucks! (e.g. tx fee unreliability)
If the major way many people buy Bitcoins doesn't work, then Bitcoin doesn't work!
There is really nothing wrong with Bitpay in most cases for people using better wallets, at least not in my experience with them, which has been entirely good.
That's not entirely true. The registrar can accept the order with 0-conf, but wait for sufficient confirmation before actually registering the name (delivery). If the registration fails after the payment confirms, you will need to get a refund, but that could happen regardless. You won't get instant domain registration, but there is no good reason to hold up the order process for this.
You hate to admit when you are wrong. Get realistic man. Domain registrars don't do it the esoteric way.
(Btw I was aware of 0-conf. I don't waste my time on sideband "noise")
Bitpay's screen does a timeout for 10 minutes waiting for 1 block chain confirmation.
That is up to the merchant as I understand it, and the ones I've used all accepted zero confirms as soon as the transaction was "seen" on the
Registering domains can't accept 0 confirmations. So many other examples where 0 confirmations are not acceptable.
That's not entirely true. The registrar can accept the order with 0-conf, but wait for sufficient confirmation before actually registering the name (delivery). If the registration fails after the payment confirms, you will need to get a refund, but that could happen regardless. You won't get instant domain registration, but there is no good reason to hold up the order process for this.
There are actually very few types of transactions that can't tolerate a short delay between order placement and final delivery.
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But I also think you are technically incorrect. Bitpay and the merchant have no way to know that localbitcoins sent the payment until the 1 confirmation is seen on the block chain (unless localbitcoins and Bitpay have a collaboration).
Sure they do, they see it on the p2p which is the same way miners get the transaction in order to include it in a block (I'm sure you know this so I'm not sure why you are confused about what is going on). The problem you may run into is that localbitcoins doesn't send payments right away. It isn't a very good wallet. There is really nothing wrong with Bitpay in most cases for people using better wallets, at least not in my experience with them, which has been entirely good.
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