SEED storage on digital media. | Bitcointalksearch.org

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: m2017 on October 19, 2024, 09:14:51 AM

Take, for example, the same ZX Spectrum. Of course, buying technically obsolete devices will be a little more difficult than a regular purchase in an electronics store, but still, it is possible. Therefore, even if USB ports change in 10 years (or more) (Type-C already differs from USB 2.0-3.0), then you can still find retro devices on the market, which will become modern technology. And regarding the fact that children will not know how to use USB, the Internet will increasingly accumulate knowledge and this information will certainly be stored on the network. Knowing that a parent \ relatives in the distant past had a bitcoins, these children will find a way to use USB.

I had a local Spectrum clone back in the nineties, it was the machine for my first "computer" games and my first lines of code. But I've sold it at some point. I am not sure I'd know where from could I buy one now if I'd want to - I mean in my country.

While indeed, you may find old hardware at enthusiasts one may need to be inclined toward such "circles" in order to know about them. The heirs may not know if their struggle will pay off and may give up early.
And back to ZX Spectrum: I know for sure that my kids would have quite a hard time to figure out they can feed the computer with programs from audio cassettes Wink

So I stick to the advice of also keeping it physical, no matter how one wants to play and test.

OP is an enthusiast, and while he does like to play with stuff, he already took my advice to think properly on an inheritance plan (at least he wrote that).

Quote from: ABCbits on October 23, 2024, 04:21:21 AM

Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages.

Aside from what other member have said, there are few others uncommon reason such as.
1. The HW company or official seller can't ship to your country or region.
2. Don't want to leave any trace or history that they buy or own hardware wallet.

Actually for signing a Tails stick is just fine. Or a SeedSigner is not that difficult to build.
..Just this topic is about long term storage of a seed, and some insist on digital storage, and more than just for test/fun.

ABCbits

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Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages.

Aside from what other member have said, there are few others uncommon reason such as.
1. The HW company or official seller can't ship to your country or region.
2. Don't want to leave any trace or history that they buy or own hardware wallet.

philipma1957

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Quote from: m2017 on October 19, 2024, 09:14:51 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.

No matter how digitalized the world is, there is no escape from the physical world and at least 1 backup should always be physical.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE

If you look a little into the past (in time), then before CD/DVD, magnetic tapes were used, which, if you really want to, can still be found, as well as playback devices. Retro devices even 40 years old are now not a problem to find and use. Take, for example, the same ZX Spectrum. Of course, buying technically obsolete devices will be a little more difficult than a regular purchase in an electronics store, but still, it is possible. Therefore, even if USB ports change in 10 years (or more) (Type-C already differs from USB 2.0-3.0), then you can still find retro devices on the market, which will become modern technology. And regarding the fact that children will not know how to use USB, the Internet will increasingly accumulate knowledge and this information will certainly be stored on the network. Knowing that a parent \ relatives in the distant past had a bitcoins, these children will find a way to use USB.

ebay has a shit ton of obsolete gear.

I sometimes list old clean hdds at a high price with an offer option.

I say that these can be used to recover old hdds if you are in the business.

Ie dissasemble my working old drive and the indentical dead old drive.

lift the disk from the old dead drive and put it in my working old drive.

I have sold about 20 old hdds this way to different hdd recovery people.

m2017

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.

No matter how digitalized the world is, there is no escape from the physical world and at least 1 backup should always be physical.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE

If you look a little into the past (in time), then before CD/DVD, magnetic tapes were used, which, if you really want to, can still be found, as well as playback devices. Retro devices even 40 years old are now not a problem to find and use. Take, for example, the same ZX Spectrum. Of course, buying technically obsolete devices will be a little more difficult than a regular purchase in an electronics store, but still, it is possible. Therefore, even if USB ports change in 10 years (or more) (Type-C already differs from USB 2.0-3.0), then you can still find retro devices on the market, which will become modern technology. And regarding the fact that children will not know how to use USB, the Internet will increasingly accumulate knowledge and this information will certainly be stored on the network. Knowing that a parent \ relatives in the distant past had a bitcoins, these children will find a way to use USB.

satscraper

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Quote from: Forsyth Jones on September 27, 2024, 02:07:37 PM

OP I visited this topic in the past, but I didn't get it in detail, just in general. One day I want to understand everything, but from what I saw it seems cool and ingenious.

Thanks for your appraisal, you will not waste your time in the course of diving into this technique.

BTW, I have refill my Tails ammo ^{(which keeps my SEED and other sensitive info)} with two Samsung Pro Endurance microSD cards with enterprise grade NAND cells that "stands up against magnets, X-rays, water, drop and wearout"

Quote from: https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/memory-storage/memory-cards/pro-endurance-adapter-microsdxc-32gb-mb-mj32ka-am/

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: Forsyth Jones on September 27, 2024, 02:07:37 PM

I like the idea of creating encrypted digital backups, I like seeing people's creativity.

That's something I completely agree with.
My concerns are on the fact the digital backup is indeed safely made and stored and that a complicated approach may become "too complicated" even for yourself in case something unexpectedly bad happens.
But yes, creativity is nice.

Quote from: Forsyth Jones on September 27, 2024, 02:07:37 PM

Simple works, but it depends on the person's point of view, whether they feel comfortable with "simple" or want something more complex. The important thing is to sleep with peace of mind.

Well said.

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Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages. And that's all, your wallet is generated and stored safely. Why should you make process harder and have a headache when you can super simplify everything without losing protectability?

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

That's a very good warning but in the first case, he shouldn't make things hard when there isn't necessity of it, especially when the pros don't outweigh the cons, i.e. the risk/safety ratio is worse in this case.

I like the idea of creating encrypted digital backups, I like seeing people's creativity. I have developed my own method that offers good plausible deniability and resistance against brute force attacks.

Simple works, but it depends on the person's point of view, whether they feel comfortable with "simple" or want something more complex. The important thing is to sleep with peace of mind.

OP I visited this topic in the past, but I didn't get it in detail, just in general. One day I want to understand everything, but from what I saw it seems cool and ingenious.

satscraper

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Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder?

Because we have the skills. Tongue

Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet,

I'm the owner of Passport2 and shared bunch of tips on this device here on forum. Just look at my history. Wink

Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates

The primitive media like "fire, water and impact resistant metal plates" doesn't allow to share it with SEED among geographically distant relatives ^{(as they can easily peep up my SEED)}. My sophisticated media can be distributed with no worry about SEED safety^{(as a matter of fact I shared it with my distant) relatives)}.

Quote from: Synchronice on September 27, 2024, 11:10:36 AM

then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages. And that's all, your wallet is generated and stored safely. Why should you make process harder and have a headache when you can super simplify everything without losing protectability?

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

That's a very good warning but in the first case, he shouldn't make things hard when there isn't necessity of it, especially when the pros don't outweigh the cons, i.e. the risk/safety ratio is worse in this case.

I'm sharp enough, don't worry Wink

Synchronice

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I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages. And that's all, your wallet is generated and stored safely. Why should you make process harder and have a headache when you can super simplify everything without losing protectability?

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

That's a very good warning but in the first case, he shouldn't make things hard when there isn't necessity of it, especially when the pros don't outweigh the cons, i.e. the risk/safety ratio is worse in this case.

satscraper

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Quote from: Greg Tonoski on September 27, 2024, 01:02:28 AM

What alternative software do you think could be used instead of Kleopatra and KeyPassXC?

I didn't try any other alternatives, thus I can not take the responsibility for the consequences of the use of other software. However to generate your security key you may use ^{(as I did)} the following commands instead of using Kleopatra (^{which in fact the interface for GnuPG)} for this purpose:

Code:

gpg --expert --full-gen-key

Choose 9

choose 1

choose 0

3

gpg --export-secret-key --armor

Take care of the secret key you have exported.^{(I have encrypted mine with HW pgp and keep it in Tails persistent volume)}

Greg Tonoski

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What alternative software do you think could be used instead of Kleopatra and KeyPassXC?

satscraper

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Quote from: Greg Tonoski on September 26, 2024, 04:16:46 AM

Can I ask you to elaborate on the "hardware pgp keys", please? How do you suggest making them? How to use and update them step-by-step?

I use YubiKey 5 series dongles which among other protocols support OpenPGP 3 ^{(however I can assume that there are other dongles whch sopprt openPGR, just DYOR).} Regarding on how to use them, please see my opening post which described step-by-step procedure on how to set the security key to your YubiKey. Should you have any further questions, feel free to ask me.

Greg Tonoski

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Can I ask you to elaborate on the "hardware pgp keys", please? How do you suggest making them? How to use and update them step-by-step?

satscraper

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

Quote from: satscraper on May 11, 2024, 10:48:21 AM

What may be wrong with HW keys that hold my pgp secret? Don't say about physical damage.

Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.

Well, this is highly, highly unbelievable scenario to happen, nevertheless I have took it seriously and to prevent it I will buy in the nearest future USB tester to control voltage on D+ and D- lines. Have seen this stuff recently on Amazon, the price around $50 is not to worry about. Thanks.

P.S. In this scenario applied to my setup, USB pens with Tails would get damage first, rather than HW pgp keys.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 11:27:59 AM

[

We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

Should USB be replaced by new interface my private pgp key can be easily ported. HW is just a holder of that key.

BTW, two of my HW keys have NFC interface alongside with USB. Wink

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Quote from: satscraper on May 11, 2024, 10:48:21 AM

What may be wrong with HW keys that hold my pgp secret? Don't say about physical damage.

Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.

We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?

I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE

satscraper

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 10:04:58 AM

While I don't fully agree with your trust in the USB keys

(even if they're 3 of them),

Really intrigued because those keys are crucial for my guarding system. What may be wrong with HW keys that hold my pgp secret? Don't say about physical damage. Should this happens with any key it can be easily replaced. In fact their quantity can be increased at any time but I don't see the need for keeping more than three keys at the moment.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 11, 2024, 10:04:58 AM

Are we indeed talking about a significant amount that deserves the hassle of paid legal service,

You can guess yourself Wink

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Quote from: satscraper on May 08, 2024, 03:27:23 AM

Lock-time transactions for inheritance is awkward stuff in my view as they required a constant renewal while you alive. Besides, any legitimate inheritance plan must contain the legal strand.

In my case, the relevant flash drives, PIN to HW pgp keys and detailed instruction will be handed over to heir by me in person, while he will get the envelope with those physical pgp keys from representatives of the legal service I have contracted with.

While I don't fully agree with your trust in the USB keys

(even if they're 3 of them), I do think that this "inheritance model" is better than the lock time approach.

Are we indeed talking about a significant amount that deserves the hassle of paid legal service, or are you talking about a hypothetical future scenario? (Clearly, you don't have to answer me on this, it's something you have to think/answer to yourself, you know..)

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Quote from: tranthidung on May 08, 2024, 12:29:39 AM

[4] Using Locktime for inheritance planning, backups or gifts

Lock-time transactions for inheritance is awkward stuff in my view as they required a constant renewal while you alive. Besides, any legitimate inheritance plan must contain the legal strand.

In my case, the relevant flash drives, PIN to HW pgp keys and detailed instruction will be handed over to heir by me in person, while he will get the envelope with those physical pgp keys from representatives of the legal service I have contracted with.

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Quote from: satscraper on May 06, 2024, 02:23:49 AM

Agreed, this is the weakness of human being whose memory is vulnerable to deceases, hard accidents and senility.

Thus, I'm in the process of development of the inheritance plan, just for above reason.

I know you are very technical man, more than me, and I believe you knew about these risk very well. There are public cases like CEO of an exchange years ago suddenly died and he is the only one who control treasury of that exchange. Maybe more cases like this, I could not remember them all, from business level to family or individual level.

With individuals, they can learn from Hal Finney who has a chronic disease and prepare for his wife to inherit his Bitcoin private keys and bitcoins. You can do the same for ones you love, wife/ husbands, children, ...

[1] Crypto CEO dies holding the only passwords that can unlock millions in customer coins
[2] Quadriga CEO's widow speaks out over his death and the missing crypto millions
[3] Bitcoin and me (Hal Finney)
[4] Using Locktime for inheritance planning, backups or gifts

satscraper

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 05, 2024, 02:00:29 PM

Quote from: satscraper on April 30, 2024, 03:37:25 AM

In practice, I maintain three cloned Tails flash drives and three hardware keys, each serving as a backup for the others.

I welcome any constructive criticism regarding potential points of failure or unknown vulnerabilities in my system.

It's an interesting setup and I kinda like it. And 3 copies sounds good.

Still... flash drives can get corrupted a bit too easy for my liking. I mean I had to reformat or throw away at least 10 USB disks in the last 20 years... and we're talking about very long time here, right?
This is the issue with electronic devices. They can get broken easier than more physical stuff.

Yeah, I know that they can may break down. That is why I'm testing each of my cloned flash drive regularly on the month bases. It's highly unlikely that all three will fail simultaneously because of poor workmanship, thus if any of them were noticed as corrupted it could be replaced by other clone.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 05, 2024, 02:00:29 PM

I will add that age or an accident or stroke can make you forget the passwords/PINs you've used there.

Agreed, this is the weakness of human being whose memory is vulnerable to deceases, hard accidents and senility.

Thus, I'm in the process of development of the inheritance plan, just for above reason.

Topic: SEED storage on digital media. (Read 772 times)