Topic: SEED storage on digital media. (Read 890 times)
boo!
Amazing, a bad "carpenter" has chosen invalid tool in this case HDD and then blames it.
Yet another occasion of the folly of man who decided to keep his SEED on HDD.
I would advise you to read this thread from the very beginning to comprehend the correct way of using digital media for storage sensitive data.
UPD. There is no sense in deleting you post. ninjastic remembers everything just for history!
OP is an enthusiast, and while he does like to play with stuff, he already took my advice to think properly on an inheritance plan (at least he wrote that).
Yeah, my commitment to developed scheme remains strong. Following your advice I have acquired very useful stuff - FNB58 USB tester which as I think will help to avoid damage resulted from the faulty port for both my HW dongles and encrypted media:
Quote from: satscraper
I also took into account the potential bit-flips resulted from cosmic rays, events which happen sometimes and to mitigate this I have extended my armor by two Samsung Pro Endurance microSD cards and spread my digital storage over the world to my friends and relatives. I intend to buy at least one-two card/flash-drive each coming year and spread them also. Such doing is affordable for me.
Take, for example, the same ZX Spectrum. Of course, buying technically obsolete devices will be a little more difficult than a regular purchase in an electronics store, but still, it is possible. Therefore, even if USB ports change in 10 years (or more) (Type-C already differs from USB 2.0-3.0), then you can still find retro devices on the market, which will become modern technology. And regarding the fact that children will not know how to use USB, the Internet will increasingly accumulate knowledge and this information will certainly be stored on the network. Knowing that a parent \ relatives in the distant past had a bitcoins, these children will find a way to use USB. 
I had a local Spectrum clone back in the nineties, it was the machine for my first "computer" games and my first lines of code. But I've sold it at some point. I am not sure I'd know where from could I buy one now if I'd want to - I mean in my country.
While indeed, you may find old hardware at enthusiasts one may need to be inclined toward such "circles" in order to know about them. The heirs may not know if their struggle will pay off and may give up early.
And back to ZX Spectrum: I know for sure that my kids would have quite a hard time to figure out they can feed the computer with programs from audio cassettes
So I stick to the advice of also keeping it physical, no matter how one wants to play and test.
OP is an enthusiast, and while he does like to play with stuff, he already took my advice to think properly on an inheritance plan (at least he wrote that).
I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages.
Aside from what other member have said, there are few others uncommon reason such as.
1. The HW company or official seller can't ship to your country or region.
2. Don't want to leave any trace or history that they buy or own hardware wallet.
Actually for signing a Tails stick is just fine. Or a SeedSigner is not that difficult to build.
..Just this topic is about long term storage of a seed, and some insist on digital storage, and more than just for test/fun.
I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages.
Aside from what other member have said, there are few others uncommon reason such as.
1. The HW company or official seller can't ship to your country or region.
2. Don't want to leave any trace or history that they buy or own hardware wallet.
Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.
No matter how digitalized the world is, there is no escape from the physical world and at least 1 backup should always be physical.We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE
If you look a little into the past (in time), then before CD/DVD, magnetic tapes were used, which, if you really want to, can still be found, as well as playback devices. Retro devices even 40 years old are now not a problem to find and use. Take, for example, the same ZX Spectrum. Of course, buying technically obsolete devices will be a little more difficult than a regular purchase in an electronics store, but still, it is possible. Therefore, even if USB ports change in 10 years (or more) (Type-C already differs from USB 2.0-3.0), then you can still find retro devices on the market, which will become modern technology. And regarding the fact that children will not know how to use USB, the Internet will increasingly accumulate knowledge and this information will certainly be stored on the network. Knowing that a parent \ relatives in the distant past had a bitcoins, these children will find a way to use USB. I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE
ebay has a shit ton of obsolete gear.
I sometimes list old clean hdds at a high price with an offer option.
I say that these can be used to recover old hdds if you are in the business.
Ie dissasemble my working old drive and the indentical dead old drive.
lift the disk from the old dead drive and put it in my working old drive.
I have sold about 20 old hdds this way to different hdd recovery people.
Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.
No matter how digitalized the world is, there is no escape from the physical world and at least 1 backup should always be physical.We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE
If you look a little into the past (in time), then before CD/DVD, magnetic tapes were used, which, if you really want to, can still be found, as well as playback devices. Retro devices even 40 years old are now not a problem to find and use. Take, for example, the same ZX Spectrum. Of course, buying technically obsolete devices will be a little more difficult than a regular purchase in an electronics store, but still, it is possible. Therefore, even if USB ports change in 10 years (or more) (Type-C already differs from USB 2.0-3.0), then you can still find retro devices on the market, which will become modern technology. And regarding the fact that children will not know how to use USB, the Internet will increasingly accumulate knowledge and this information will certainly be stored on the network. Knowing that a parent \ relatives in the distant past had a bitcoins, these children will find a way to use USB. I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE
OP I visited this topic in the past, but I didn't get it in detail, just in general. One day I want to understand everything, but from what I saw it seems cool and ingenious.
Thanks for your appraisal, you will not waste your time in the course of diving into this technique.
BTW, I have refill my Tails ammo (which keeps my SEED and other sensitive info) with two Samsung Pro Endurance microSD cards with enterprise grade NAND cells that "stands up against magnets, X-rays, water, drop and wearout"
I like the idea of creating encrypted digital backups, I like seeing people's creativity.
That's something I completely agree with.
My concerns are on the fact the digital backup is indeed safely made and stored and that a complicated approach may become "too complicated" even for yourself in case something unexpectedly bad happens.
But yes, creativity is nice.
Simple works, but it depends on the person's point of view, whether they feel comfortable with "simple" or want something more complex. The important thing is to sleep with peace of mind.
Well said.
I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages. And that's all, your wallet is generated and stored safely. Why should you make process harder and have a headache when you can super simplify everything without losing protectability?
I like the idea of creating encrypted digital backups, I like seeing people's creativity. I have developed my own method that offers good plausible deniability and resistance against brute force attacks.Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
That's a very good warning but in the first case, he shouldn't make things hard when there isn't necessity of it, especially when the pros don't outweigh the cons, i.e. the risk/safety ratio is worse in this case.Simple works, but it depends on the person's point of view, whether they feel comfortable with "simple" or want something more complex. The important thing is to sleep with peace of mind.
OP I visited this topic in the past, but I didn't get it in detail, just in general. One day I want to understand everything, but from what I saw it seems cool and ingenious.
I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder?
Because we have the skills.
Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet,
I'm the owner of Passport2 and shared bunch of tips on this device here on forum. Just look at my history.
then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates
The primitive media like "fire, water and impact resistant metal plates" doesn't allow to share it with SEED among geographically distant relatives (as they can easily peep up my SEED). My sophisticated media can be distributed with no worry about SEED safety (as a matter of fact I shared it with my distant) relatives).
then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages. And that's all, your wallet is generated and stored safely. Why should you make process harder and have a headache when you can super simplify everything without losing protectability?
Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
That's a very good warning but in the first case, he shouldn't make things hard when there isn't necessity of it, especially when the pros don't outweigh the cons, i.e. the risk/safety ratio is worse in this case.I'm sharp enough, don't worry
I seriously don't understand one thing, why do you guys try to make things harder? Just buy a ColdCard or The Passport Foundation wallet, both of them are air-gapped, then write down seeds on fire, water and impact resistant metal plates or just shop on Trezor's website and you'll find other safe creative storages. And that's all, your wallet is generated and stored safely. Why should you make process harder and have a headache when you can super simplify everything without losing protectability?
Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
That's a very good warning but in the first case, he shouldn't make things hard when there isn't necessity of it, especially when the pros don't outweigh the cons, i.e. the risk/safety ratio is worse in this case. What alternative software do you think could be used instead of Kleopatra and KeyPassXC?
I didn't try any other alternatives, thus I can not take the responsibility for the consequences of the use of other software. However to generate your security key you may use (as I did) the following commands instead of using Kleopatra (which in fact the interface for GnuPG) for this purpose:
Code:
gpg --expert --full-gen-key
Choose 9
choose 1
choose 0
3
gpg --export-secret-key --armor
Take care of the secret key you have exported.(I have encrypted mine with HW pgp and keep it in Tails persistent volume)
What alternative software do you think could be used instead of Kleopatra and KeyPassXC?
Can I ask you to elaborate on the "hardware pgp keys", please? How do you suggest making them? How to use and update them step-by-step?
I use YubiKey 5 series dongles which among other protocols support OpenPGP 3 (however I can assume that there are other dongles whch sopprt openPGR, just DYOR). Regarding on how to use them, please see my opening post which described step-by-step procedure on how to set the security key to your YubiKey. Should you have any further questions, feel free to ask me.
Can I ask you to elaborate on the "hardware pgp keys", please? How do you suggest making them? How to use and update them step-by-step?
What may be wrong with HW keys that hold my pgp secret? Don't say about physical damage.
Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.
Well, this is highly, highly unbelievable scenario to happen, nevertheless I have took it seriously and to prevent it I will buy in the nearest future USB tester to control voltage on D+ and D- lines. Have seen this stuff recently on Amazon, the price around $50 is not to worry about. Thanks.
P.S. In this scenario applied to my setup, USB pens with Tails would get damage first, rather than HW pgp keys.
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We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
Should USB be replaced by new interface my private pgp key can be easily ported. HW is just a holder of that key.
BTW, two of my HW keys have NFC interface alongside with USB.
What may be wrong with HW keys that hold my pgp secret? Don't say about physical damage.
Let's say a very bad case of bad luck and every time and every laptop you try to use to read any of those USB key it breaks them. What then? How confident would you feel when the second one is already broken and you still didn't manage to make more backups? Yes, I know, it's extreme... Still, I recommend some physical means too as backup.
We are in 2024. USB is still widely used, but various flavors tend to change the trend. I would not be surprised if in 10 years already the USB port will not look like now. I expect USBC, for example for the port. Plus: 25 years ago CD/DVD was a thing, now it's no more; are you sure your kids or nephews will know - when the time comes - what to do with an USB stick? Will you be sharp enough in 20-30 years to change the storage (from USB stick) to something that will be then "in trends"?
I will only add this Star Trek classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShY6xZWVGE
While I don't fully agree with your trust in the USB keys
(even if they're 3 of them),Really intrigued because those keys are crucial for my guarding system. What may be wrong with HW keys that hold my pgp secret? Don't say about physical damage. Should this happens with any key it can be easily replaced. In fact their quantity can be increased at any time but I don't see the need for keeping more than three keys at the moment.
Are we indeed talking about a significant amount that deserves the hassle of paid legal service,
You can guess yourself
Lock-time transactions for inheritance is awkward stuff in my view as they required a constant renewal while you alive. Besides, any legitimate inheritance plan must contain the legal strand.
In my case, the relevant flash drives, PIN to HW pgp keys and detailed instruction will be handed over to heir by me in person, while he will get the envelope with those physical pgp keys from representatives of the legal service I have contracted with.
In my case, the relevant flash drives, PIN to HW pgp keys and detailed instruction will be handed over to heir by me in person, while he will get the envelope with those physical pgp keys from representatives of the legal service I have contracted with.
While I don't fully agree with your trust in the USB keys
(even if they're 3 of them), I do think that this "inheritance model" is better than the lock time approach.Are we indeed talking about a significant amount that deserves the hassle of paid legal service, or are you talking about a hypothetical future scenario? (Clearly, you don't have to answer me on this, it's something you have to think/answer to yourself, you know..)
Lock-time transactions for inheritance is awkward stuff in my view as they required a constant renewal while you alive. Besides, any legitimate inheritance plan must contain the legal strand.
In my case, the relevant flash drives, PIN to HW pgp keys and detailed instruction will be handed over to heir by me in person, while he will get the envelope with those physical pgp keys from representatives of the legal service I have contracted with.
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