Tibu can you tell us how exactly is Seedkeeper different from Satochip or Satodime cards?
If I understand correctly this is alternative option for storing and writing seed words on paper or metal.
One potential problem I see with Seedkeeper is that it can only work with Seedkeeper Tool, and only protection is short PIN code that could be hacked in theory.
I do like standard credit card format, that won't bring much attention from other people.
Sorry for the late reply, very busy weeks...
Satochip is a pure hardware wallet, you generate a new seed or import and existing one. Card is protected by a PIN code.
Your keys, your coins. It's a personnal storage for crypto-currencies and other crypto assets.
Satodime is more like a cold storage, you don't have to deal with a seed, a password or a PIN code. Everything is done by the chip and you can use a mobile app to load and check the wallet's balance.
It's not a personal product, more like a gift card. Best product to orange pill someone or for crypto newcomers.
Seedkeeper is purely designed to store sensitive information. Secured by a PIN code.
You can use it to initialize a Satochip card or save an existing seed. It's useful to add an extra security layer and as a backup of your metal plate.
The 3 products share the same hardware and the same chip. Changes come from the code which is open source.
One potential problem I see with Seedkeeper is that it can only work with Seedkeeper Tool
That's a good point. One might ask what would happen if the Seedkeeper tool or Satoship as a company isn't around in a few years? How do I get access to my seeds Tibu?
The software appears to be open source:
https://github.com/Toporin?tab=repositoriesSo you could download, compile, modify and even write your own software to interface with it, I suppose. It's probably a very standard
Java Card so you might even be able to use other Java Card software as well.
-> Yup that's true. Even if Satochip S.R.L. dies, you will be able to keep it running. Our software products are open-source.
and only protection is short PIN code that could be hacked in theory.
You can use up to 16 characters, so it's not that short. And there is really no protection of the words if your seed phrase is written down on paper or engraved in steel or wood either. You can use a passphrase though with your standard paper wallet or the seed you store in your Seedkeeper.
I see this as a less
safe version of a laminated paper backup (since it can be damaged by heat, cold or radiation), but maybe a bit more convenient. Though I wonder how often you make and restore seed words backups (probably not very often). However I do like the other products Tibu makes and will probably try Satochip in the future. Indeed, it's much more stealthy to carry around a regular card instead of a bulky hardware wallet and it might be a replacement for the software wallet I use for on-the-go payments. It's just a pity that while the device itself is as slim and inconspicuous as it gets, you always need a bulky reader to actually use it.
-> Our products are also great in combination with existing one... Such Ledger or Trezor. You can have a Satochip card as a backup or as a "traveller" hardware wallet while you keep your Ledger in the bank safe.
I just see this on my local board, Husna sharing this tool, I still don't know how it work, when the function still uses electronics as media for storing the seed, is that function can still be hacked from the internet even if it is offline?. (cookie, history and etc)
Is available for storing besides BIP39 seed such as Electrum seed?, because when I read how-to, there is generate a random seed, when different seed (electrum) from the default (BIP39), I doubt it will generally not as usual and make the confused when use for restoring it.
What material? SS304, Titanium, or PVC (ATM Card)?
how to restore when forget PIN CODE?
Your Seedkeeper card is protected by a PIN code: a 4-16 characters password used to unlock it
Seedkeeper is "offline". If you generate a masterseed "on chip", it's completly air-gapped. Meaning the hosting computer, neither the user is able to see it.
Of course, if you use our Seedkeeper-tool to generate a new seed or import an existing one and your computer has a keylogger, you might be compromised.
You can store any seed on the device.
Cards are made out of PVC like your ATM card.
If you forgot your PIN code, you wont be able to recover it. It's a security measure. But Seedkeeper-Tool comes with a one click backup solution. So you can initialize several Seedkeeper cards with different PIN code and import the same backup on each one.
- A piece of paper can be easily lost, damaged or destroyed;
Your card can't be lost, damaged (have you tested the influence of electromagnetic fields and other influences of the surrounding world on the safety of information on the memory module) or destroyed (how is a plastic card better protected from burning compared to paper?)
I do like standard credit card format, that won't bring much attention from other people.
I would add here the ability to randomize the appearance of card. For example, to apply an image as a gift or to give the appearance of a bonus card of any store in order to disguise it.
The way information is stored on a similar map makes me once again think that there is no ideal way to store seed-phrase. There will always be vulnerabilities in any method and the choice of how to store it, for example, on paper, metal or such a card, will depend on your goals and preferences. It is possible that some investors will want to store their seeds on such cards.
Well, of course the card can be lost, damaged or destroyed. But what I mean behind this sentence is: a paper is easily damageable; by the UV of the sun, by a wet surrounding air or just lost because it's a small piece of paper. Furthermore, your seed is usually written in plain text. That's why we dont recommand to store a seed on a sheet of paper (and for example, Ledger still sells its hardware wallet with a "seed paper card" to allow you to write your seed down").
But the card is waterproof and shock proof. It can be heat and cold resistant. And the secure element is tamper proof.
Regarding the card customization, you can already do it for the Satochip and the Satodime cards... We will soon launch the customization module for the Seedkeeper one.
Just like your favorite T-Shirt, you can download your own picture and customize the front and the back of the card.
"The way information is stored on a similar map makes me once again think that there is no ideal way to store seed-phrase." I agree 100% with you. There is no "best way" to store a seed. But some tools/products are a bit safer/better than other.
You can use up to 16 characters, so it's not that short. And there is really no protection of the words if your seed phrase is written down on paper or engraved in steel or wood either.
Minimum you can use is 4 characters and people tend to use minimal pin if they can.
If I use paper or metal backup I can always add additional protection with one or more passphrases, and I am not sure how that works with Satochip products.
You have a point, but you can also use it with laptops that already have built-in NFC chips.
This could be alternative option but I don't think all of their card wallets and products work with NFC technology, that is why they are offering big readers.
Using NFC for hardware wallets and seed words could mean opening new can full of worms, and I wouldn't be surprised if scammers find a way to abuse it soon.
This is similar like wireless, it even has small miniature antenna inside chip, but it's with shorter range.
Hey
Our products are all NFC compatible. Our card are equiped with NFC antenna and work like a charm when using a NFC reader.
For example, our Satodime card can be read on your mobile phone while using our app. That's really important for us because you can esaily check if a keyslot is sealed or unsealed and check the balance. Even on street while dealing some sats for a watch.
We are selling chip card readers because: 1) we have not release mobile app (and thus NFC communication) for Satochip and Seedkeeper products (not yet). 2) NFC reader are very expansive. Much more than a chip card reader.
"Using NFC for hardware wallets and seed words could mean opening new can full of worms, and I wouldn't be surprised if scammers find a way to abuse it soon." I dont get your point.
NFC is really secure. And even if you try to scan and skim a NFC card, you wont be able to perform any sensitive action as it will require the PIN code.
It's just a pity that while the device itself is as slim and inconspicuous as it gets, you always need a bulky reader to actually use it.
You have a point, but you can also use it with laptops that already have built-in NFC chips.
I totally missed that they have NFC; then it might actually be a pretty cool device to use in conjunction with a phone, since more phones have NFC than PCs or laptops. It would also be relatively inconspicuous quickly holding a card to the back of your phone even in public spaces. I'm generally not a fan of NFC or other wireless technologies on hardware wallets, but in this form factor and for this application (small amounts for usage on the go) it could actually make sense.
But if I understand correctly, unfortunately their software only runs on desktop OSes - missed opportunity in my opinion. If I can carry a laptop, I can also carry a Foundation Passport.
You are right. Our "NFC' mobile application protfolio is weak at the moment. We only have the Satodime Tool on Android.
But we are working on the iOS version and the mobile app for Seedkeeper. We can easily imagine to integrate Seedkeeper with Blue Wallet or Muun Wallet (non custodials soft wallet). And when a user want to create a new wallet, he can just tap his Seedkeeper and the seed is store within the card. It's easy and straight forward. It will be easier for newcomers to start with such software wallet as they would'nt have to deal with the seed. -Store in a dedicated device and forget -
, just write the PIN code of your Seedkeeper on your testament.
