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Findingnemo

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Quote from: JiiBs on February 24, 2024, 09:16:22 PM

Quote from: Findingnemo on February 24, 2024, 02:45:35 PM

I always go by the old school method of writing on paper but to answer the question QR code should convert the format in completely offline so if someone using an air-gapped device then it's same level of secured as writing on paper, but if the device can expose to internet while reading or even after we done we can't say for sure that our seed is completely safe with us.

With particular emphasis on safe,
Just how safe can this method to wallet key security be?

The idea about keys to a wallet of this nature is how it could be completely secure and then, having it in a QR code formate might be a very simple means but, its just a scan away from being hacked.

Meanwhile, most the mobile devices these days don't need an icon to be clicked for searching out the program behind a code. Just a flash of the device camera and the code is linked.

Now, does this automatically suggest you a wallet for download for you or itould just error out if you aren't scanning from a specific wallet.

It's the user's responsibility to keep the seeds that are converted into QR codes in a secured environment where no one can access them except you and just same as writing and storing the seed words, the only purpose of converting them into QR codes is convenient which I don't practice as said.

If you are scanning QR for a specific purpose like scanning to make a payment and the app doesn't recognize will show it's error but just a split second is enough to read the QR code data by the reader so if you are hanging the converted seed in a place where someone can snap then you are inviting people to steal what you have.

JiiBs

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Quote from: Findingnemo on February 24, 2024, 02:45:35 PM

I always go by the old school method of writing on paper but to answer the question QR code should convert the format in completely offline so if someone using an air-gapped device then it's same level of secured as writing on paper, but if the device can expose to internet while reading or even after we done we can't say for sure that our seed is completely safe with us.

With particular emphasis on safe,
Just how safe can this method to wallet key security be?

The idea about keys to a wallet of this nature is how it could be completely secure and then, having it in a QR code formate might be a very simple means but, its just a scan away from being hacked.

Meanwhile, most the mobile devices these days don't need an icon to be clicked for searching out the program behind a code. Just a flash of the device camera and the code is linked.

Now, does this automatically suggest you a wallet for download for you or itould just error out if you aren't scanning from a specific wallet.

Findingnemo

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Quote from: m2017 on February 24, 2024, 08:16:54 AM

Quote from: Charles-Tim on February 19, 2024, 03:45:53 AM

If you have generated a seed phrase or private key, the wallet you used can give you the option to backup the seed phrase or private key using QR code. You can use the QR code as backup. So that anytime you want to recover the wallet you can use the QR code backup to recover your wallet as it contains the seed phrase or the private key. But I will not advice you to use this method for backup. It is better you write down your seed phrase instead which is better and seem more secure in my opinion.

You can always restore a simply written seed phrase (on paper, metal or any other way) without third-party applications. In the case of QR-code backups, you will need some kind of application that converts from one format to another. This moment is the most unsafe. Why create an extra (dangerous) intermediary between you and cryptocurrencies?

I always go by the old school method of writing on paper but to answer the question QR code should convert the format in completely offline so if someone using an air-gapped device then it's same level of secured as writing on paper, but if the device can expose to internet while reading or even after we done we can't say for sure that our seed is completely safe with us.

m2017

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on February 19, 2024, 03:45:53 AM

If you have generated a seed phrase or private key, the wallet you used can give you the option to backup the seed phrase or private key using QR code. You can use the QR code as backup. So that anytime you want to recover the wallet you can use the QR code backup to recover your wallet as it contains the seed phrase or the private key. But I will not advice you to use this method for backup. It is better you write down your seed phrase instead which is better and seem more secure in my opinion.

You can always restore a simply written seed phrase (on paper, metal or any other way) without third-party applications. In the case of QR-code backups, you will need some kind of application that converts from one format to another. This moment is the most unsafe. Why create an extra (dangerous) intermediary between you and cryptocurrencies?

Quote from: satscraper on February 22, 2024, 09:20:17 AM

Any thought on how to transfer Compact SeedQR to the steel plate? I'm asking because master SEED can be presented now in both SeedQR forms on the screen of Passport 2 which is device to manage my bitcoin stash. I thought about mapping the transparent film with the relevant image and use it for the further transfer to the metal plate. But maybe you have a better view on this matter.

This brought up another thought. Transfer the bitcoin address into QR code format and apply it (laser engraving) to a small metal plate (like an army badge or medallion) and show it to receive payment or donations. Fast (QR code is always on your neck / pocket), convenient (takes up little space) and cool.

Well, or wear it as a keychain.

satscraper

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Quote from: RickDeckard on February 24, 2024, 04:42:53 AM

Quote from: satscraper on February 23, 2024, 03:28:22 AM

Thus my plot is the following: I would cover display with transparent film, using the fibre-tip pen with permanent ink map to this film the relevant Compact SeedQR and then, after placing this film on the steel plate hammer it with a punch tool.

I am unsure how efficient that idea would be considering the method. My main fear is that somehow your copied QR code isn't recognized and you are left with a metal plate that is not useful to your needs. I would tell you to test it before copying it to the metal plate but that would make you to use an exterior device (which I believe you don't want to).

Sure, I will test more than once both transparent film mapped with Compact SeedQR and its copy on the metal plate until get the satisfactory results. Regardless, this plate will serve as the second-class backup for my SEED. The stainless-steel washers with the stamped seed-words are nights and days in my garage.

RickDeckard

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Quote from: satscraper on February 23, 2024, 03:28:22 AM

Thus my plot is the following: I would cover display with transparent film, using the fibre-tip pen with permanent ink map to this film the relevant Compact SeedQR and then, after placing this film on the steel plate hammer it with a punch tool.

I am unsure how efficient that idea would be considering the method. My main fear is that somehow your copied QR code isn't recognized and you are left with a metal plate that is not useful to your needs. I would tell you to test it before copying it to the metal plate but that would make you to use an exterior device (which I believe you don't want to).

satscraper

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Quote from: RickDeckard on February 22, 2024, 06:05:23 PM

Quote from: satscraper on February 22, 2024, 09:20:17 AM

Any thought on how to transfer Compact SeedQR to the steel plate? I'm asking because master SEED can be presented now in both SeedQR forms on the screen of Passport 2 which is device to manage my bitcoin stash. I thought about mapping the transparent film with the relevant image and use it for the further transfer to the metal plate. But maybe you have a better view on this matter.

I wonder, does the new version of Passport allows you to magnify each area of the generated QR code? That would make it rather easy for you to zoom a certain section of the QR code, grab a metal plate, a steel hammer and a punch tool and just start hitting that steel plate. You can see that process in action here[1]. Could you please confirm if Passport has this functionality? (at first sight I would say that it doesn't, but I can't actually test it)

As an additional tip, in order to improve the readability of steel plates I would also follow these[2] recommendations as some users report having problems scanning from them.

[1]https://econoalchemist.github.io/SeedSigner/05_Seed-Backup.html
[2]https://seedhammer.com/article/how-to-scan-qr-codes-off-steel-plates

Interesting suggestion which didn't strike my head yesterday at the test of the new version of Passport. Today, after reading it, I have tested Passport ad hoc and can confirm that it doesn't allow to magnify areas of SeedQR.

Thus my plot is the following: I would cover display with transparent film, using the fibre-tip pen with permanent ink map to this film the relevant Compact SeedQR and then, after placing this film on the steel plate hammer it with a punch tool.

I would reluctantly use any electronic based mediator (like Web cam) at SeedQR transfer as In my view it might potentially pose a threat for Seed safety.

RickDeckard

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Quote from: satscraper on February 22, 2024, 09:20:17 AM

Any thought on how to transfer Compact SeedQR to the steel plate? I'm asking because master SEED can be presented now in both SeedQR forms on the screen of Passport 2 which is device to manage my bitcoin stash. I thought about mapping the transparent film with the relevant image and use it for the further transfer to the metal plate. But maybe you have a better view on this matter.

I wonder, does the new version of Passport allows you to magnify each area of the generated QR code? That would make it rather easy for you to zoom a certain section of the QR code, grab a metal plate, a steel hammer and a punch tool and just start hitting that steel plate. You can see that process in action here[1]. Could you please confirm if Passport has this functionality? (at first sight I would say that it doesn't, but I can't actually test it)

As an additional tip, in order to improve the readability of steel plates I would also follow these[2] recommendations as some users report having problems scanning from them.

[1]https://econoalchemist.github.io/SeedSigner/05_Seed-Backup.html
[2]https://seedhammer.com/article/how-to-scan-qr-codes-off-steel-plates

satscraper

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Quote from: RickDeckard on February 20, 2024, 06:19:58 PM

This is totally accurate and I am sorry for not bringing it up alongside my explanation for how a SeedQR works. Whatever the OP decides to do, he/she should ideally use a air gapped device to read whatever SeedQR code that he currently holds.

Don't be sorry, be happy.

Any thought on how to transfer Compact SeedQR to the steel plate? I'm asking because master SEED can be presented now in both SeedQR forms on the screen of Passport 2 which is device to manage my bitcoin stash. I thought about mapping the transparent film with the relevant image and use it for the further transfer to the metal plate. But maybe you have a better view on this matter.

RickDeckard

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Quote from: satscraper on February 19, 2024, 04:51:40 AM

Quote from: RickDeckard on February 18, 2024, 08:13:43 PM

SeedQR is a clever way of transforming your seed phrases into a single stream of digits

Just to extend a bit your statement.

There are two formats of SeedQR: Standard SeedQR and CompactSeedQR. The first one transforms seed phrases into decimal digits stream while the second into the stream of binaries.

Whatever is the flavor of SeedQR, the online relevant readers must never be used to decode them into SEEDs.

This is totally accurate and I am sorry for not bringing it up alongside my explanation for how a SeedQR works. Whatever the OP decides to do, he/she should ideally use a air gapped device to read whatever SeedQR code that he currently holds.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: Unsaint32 on February 18, 2024, 07:56:29 PM

Can I find a wallet's seed phrases or private key, if I have the wallet's seedQR?

TL;DR: Yes. The seedQR contains the seed phrase and it is not encrypted.

In my opinion, if you are going to carry around a seedQR (or a seed phrase in any form), it should be extended (i.e., have a "passphrase"). This will ensure that a person who finds your seed phrase will still not be able to access your bitcoins.

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Quote from: Unsaint32 on February 18, 2024, 08:35:39 PM

I should have provided the context. I am using Blockstream Jade. As a part of the setting up the Jade wallet, it gives me an option to "draw" the seedQR, which is used to login to this stateless wallet (which forgets the private key when power turned off). What I don't understand is, why would anybody want to create this seedQR, which is like a card with the 12 words written on it. Sure, you can write down the words and put it away somewhere safe, but you shouldn't be using the card everytime you log in to the wallet.

So like you said, the SeedQR serves as a backup for that stateless hardware wallets - like Jade. It functions sort of like a seed phrase would, but it's custom-tailored in a way that specifically complements these stateless setups and their distinctive security features.

And that right there is the central advantage: because those wallets never save your seed or private keys locally, even someone snatching the physical device shouldn't pose a risk per se. Not even theoretically!

But then again that SeedQR still represents sensitive data in its own right. So in that sense, commonsense precautions apply. You'll wanna handle that QR code document with the same care and discretion you would any other confidential info. Keep it stored away safe and private just like you would your seed phrase.

satscraper

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Quote from: RickDeckard on February 18, 2024, 08:13:43 PM

SeedQR is a clever way of transforming your seed phrases into a single stream of digits

Just to extend a bit your statement.

There are two formats of SeedQR: Standard SeedQR and CompactSeedQR. The first one transforms seed phrases into decimal digits stream while the second into the stream of binaries.

Whatever is the flavor of SeedQR, the online relevant readers must never be used to decode them into SEEDs.

Charles-Tim

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Quote from: Unsaint32 on February 18, 2024, 07:56:29 PM

Can I find a wallet's seed phrases or private key, if I have the wallet's seedQR?

If you have generated a seed phrase or private key, the wallet you used can give you the option to backup the seed phrase or private key using QR code. You can use the QR code as backup. So that anytime you want to recover the wallet you can use the QR code backup to recover your wallet as it contains the seed phrase or the private key. But I will not advice you to use this method for backup. It is better you write down your seed phrase instead which is better and seem more secure in my opinion.

Yamane_Keto

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Quote from: Unsaint32 on February 18, 2024, 08:35:39 PM

I should have provided the context. I am using Blockstream Jade. As a part of the setting up the Jade wallet, it gives me an option to "draw" the seedQR, which is used to login to this stateless wallet (which forgets the private key when power turned off). What I don't understand is, why would anybody want to create this seedQR, which is like a card with the 12 words written on it. Sure, you can write down the words and put it away somewhere safe, but you shouldn't be using the card everytime you log in to the wallet.

Stateless wallet does not store any data locally after turning off the power. Thus, wallets are useful in case of physical attacks as If your wallet is stolen and the thief wants to brute force the wallet PIN or for those who have different seeds for a multisig wallet.

In this case, you will be required to enter the seed every time you use the wallet. To speed things up, instead of entering the words manually, you can simply scan the seedQR. If you do not need a Stateless wallet, do not use this option. the seedQR option may be bad, as everyone who accesses it accesses your money, so the option of manually writing the seed is better.

witcher_sense

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Quote from: Unsaint32 on February 18, 2024, 08:35:39 PM

I should have provided the context. I am using Blockstream Jade. As a part of the setting up the Jade wallet, it gives me an option to "draw" the seedQR, which is used to login to this stateless wallet (which forgets the private key when power turned off). What I don't understand is, why would anybody want to create this seedQR, which is like a card with the 12 words written on it. Sure, you can write down the words and put it away somewhere safe, but you shouldn't be using the card everytime you log in to the wallet.

If the benefits of using hand-written QR codes for unlocking a wallet are not obvious to you, then it is unlikely that you actually need at all a functionality of stateless airgapped hardware wallets. But in general, when you use SeedQR technology, you keep your QR in a safe place like a normal seed, you don't use a hardware wallet in public places to make transactions, and you don't share it with anyone unless it's people who you fully trust. Just use it in your home, and make transactions effortlessly and completely independently of third-party solutions; these transactions will be securely isolated from potentially dangerous environments. That's the idea.

Unsaint32

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I should have provided the context. I am using Blockstream Jade. As a part of the setting up the Jade wallet, it gives me an option to "draw" the seedQR, which is used to login to this stateless wallet (which forgets the private key when power turned off). What I don't understand is, why would anybody want to create this seedQR, which is like a card with the 12 words written on it. Sure, you can write down the words and put it away somewhere safe, but you shouldn't be using the card everytime you log in to the wallet.

RickDeckard

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Quote from: Nwada001 on February 18, 2024, 07:58:35 PM

If you have the QR that contains the wallet private key or seed phrase, then yes, you can.

Building on top of Nwada001 reply, SeedQR is a clever way of transforming your seed phrases into a single stream of digits (and then into a QR code). If you go over to the SeedQR documentation[1] you will quickly understand how it works, but to give you a quick idea:

The total worldlist for English seed phrases is 2048[2];
Assume that your first seed phrase is "banner", which occupies the 147 position in the English wordlist;
Your second one is "scatter", which occupies the 1540 position[2].
The SeedQR specifications uses the positions of both seed phrases (0147 for banner and 1540 for scatter) and combines them (01471540). You would have to continue do this exercise until you have combined all 12 or 24 seed phrases into a single stream of digits.

Using this knowledge you now understand that you basically have to group each 4 digit from the single stream of digits in order to obtain the first seed phrase. You would have to keep doing this until you have the complete seed phrase list in your possession.

[1]https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner/blob/dev/docs/seed_qr/README.md
[2]https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt

Hazink

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Quote from: Unsaint32 on February 18, 2024, 07:56:29 PM

Can I find a wallet's seed phrases or private key, if I have the wallet's seedQR?

I think wallet seedQR is already all you need to get access to a wallet.
If you scan that SeedQR you can be able to review what the seed phrase is, and if they are correct on that QRcode then you can import it in any wallet good recommended wallet and generate private key with it.

All you need is a good QRcode reader or scan directly using any wallet you want to import it in on and you will be able to import that wallet successfully. That’s if what you mean by SeedQR is the same as seed phrase.

Nwada001

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If you have the QR that contains the wallet private key or seed phrase, then yes, you can.

But if it's a QR code that contains the wallet address or public key alone, then you can't have access to the keyphrase or private key. You can't generate a private key from a wallet address, but you can use the phrase or private key to get a wallet address.

Topic: SeedQR (Read 375 times)