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Topic: Segwit Adoption. I looked at some data, and we are not there yet. - page 2. (Read 1284 times)

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: NotATether on October 30, 2020, 07:51:40 AM

There is one big reason why people still use legacy addresses, because legacy signatures are standardized across all clients and implementations, while segwit signed messages aren’t.

I don't think that's exactly a "big" reason, most users don't need to prove ownership of funds at any address (other than by sending a transaction from the address, of course). And many probably aren't aware that it's possible (or even what it means)

There is a developing standard (BIP322), but it may not be finalized for a few weeks/months yet. It was recently changed (simplified, in fact), so the new proposal will be reviewed amongst Bitcoin developers before it's ready to be implemented into wallet/client software.

NotATether

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Quote from: Artemis3 on October 19, 2020, 12:45:16 PM

There is no reason to use legacy. I have been using bech32 nearly since it got added into Electrum. The incentive is there, you pay a tiny little bit less in transaction fees. Could this be some exchange that keep being the bulk users still with outdated systems in place? Maybe the pools as well?

There is one big reason why people still use legacy addresses, because legacy signatures are standardized across all clients and implementations, while segwit signed messages aren’t. P2WSH and P2WPKH signatures don’t have an standard that’s implemented by everyone yet, so each client uses its own incompatible format of segwit signatures. This results in each client being unable to verify segwit signatures made by other clients and they are poorly written to print that the signed message is invalid, even though it’s perfectly valid.

For example the other day I made a signed message from a segwit address in Electrum to give to someone, but none of the online message tools would verify the signature, they all said it was invalid because it turns out they only support legacy addresses.

Wind_FURY

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Obviously the more software wallets, like Electrum, and the more exchanges integrate and support Bech32 as the default, the more of its usage trajectory goes up.

Don't listen to the FUD.

tranthidung

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About Bech32-address, it has upwards trend in count and value over last 3 years (plots show that trend -- see in median and interquartile range, the vertical line and box, respectively). Pay your attention on axis-scales that are different over 3 years.

In 2018

In 2019

In 2020 (10 months)

tranthidung

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Quote from: BTMBitcoinVN on October 22, 2020, 09:46:35 PM

A small data point "out of the field":

Quote

The BTM department of BitcoinVN announced in a recent tweet that all their current Bitcoin ATMs have been upgraded to enable SegWit deposits and withdrawals from their machines.

Native SegWit addresses can be identified that they commonly begin with “bc1…” at the start of the alphanumeric string.

https://news.bitcoinvn.io/bitcoin-atm-saigon-upgraded-segwit/?lang=en

We have upgraded all of our current fleet to utilize native Bech32 addresses

Especially since Bitcoin ATM users often just transfer smaller amounts of funds the savings in tx fees should be quite noticeable as we enter the next bull market (in Dec 2017 the peak tx fee one unfortunate customer had to pay was over 100$ Undecided

I know you meant this terrible period that I was in too. The time-series plot is for median statistics (that already exclude min, max and outlier values), not for maximum so you can imagine how those spikes look like if I use Maximum statistics and plot them.

To avoid derailing the thread, I invite you to read Bitcoin transaction fees (feer per KB - in USD) with median, outliers, plots

Your statement can be verified by plots above. Segwit adopters are mostly use the address type for smaller transactions but as said it does not solely because of them, exchangers and merchants have their roles here as well.

BTMBitcoinVN

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A small data point "out of the field":

Quote

https://news.bitcoinvn.io/bitcoin-atm-saigon-upgraded-segwit/?lang=en

We have upgraded all of our current fleet to utilize native Bech32 addresses

tranthidung

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You can see differences among 3 years (for address count and address values over 3 types of addresses): 2018, 2019 and 2020 (not yet completed)

In 2018
- Address count: 1-address decreased over months, and the highest peak was in January 2018 and gradually fell after that. In contrast, the 3-address rose over months and reached its peak in November.
- Address value: almost same trends. 1-address was high in first half of 2018, then fell significantly in the second half. 3-address increased over months but with less significance compares to address-count.
In 2019
- Address count: Both 1- and 3-address increased the first half (with peaks were around May) and decreased in the second half. Bech32-address increased stably over months.
- Address value: In this year, the 3-address type is dominant in address value with 2 highest peaks in January and June. It is very different than rest 2 years (2018 and 2020)

In 2018

In 2019

tranthidung

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The increases of values are confirmed by box plots. In the same period, whilst the increases in BTC add counts (reached peak in May) are not significantly over 3 types of address, the rises in address values are very significantly and noticeable. The peak of address values (1-address type, specifically) in 2020 so far was hit in September. It began the rise since August and with the amazing breakout of BTC I think the new peak can be hit in October. Let's wait time to confirm it.

Bech32 addresses are less affected by bitcoin rises (both in counts and values). People still have favorite in Legacy addresses to store their bitcoin and it can be explained by the fact that most of people store their bitcoin on exchangers, not on their own non-custodial wallets (my assumption only).

Two plots are other confirmations for your pie charts in OP. Cheesy

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

Quote from: LoyceV on October 22, 2020, 04:21:38 AM

Quote from: bitmover on October 20, 2020, 07:27:28 AM

We only need data since 02/26/2018 (Bitcoin Core segwit release date).

I only notice this now: SegWit was implemented on August 23, 2017. Why use Feb 26 (a couple months later)?

This was a mistake in my first post, corrected later on:

Quote from: bitmover on October 20, 2020, 08:44:04 PM

I stripped block data before block 481824 (segwit activation)

Quote from: bitmover on October 20, 2020, 10:25:57 PM

By 2017-08-24 (the day block 481824 was mined ) there were:

But from my sources it is 2017-08-24 01:05:01

Anyway, that doesn't make much of difference...

Quote from: bitmover on October 22, 2020, 12:18:47 AM

And there was still a block with 2992 legacy transactions (and zero segwit) in 2020!

I made a summary per day already. I can create one per block, but it takes some time so I'll only do it if someone's going to use it.

No need for one per block, as I used your other post to get data from each block.

LoyceV

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Quote from: bitmover on October 20, 2020, 07:27:28 AM

We only need data since 02/26/2018 (Bitcoin Core segwit release date).

I only notice this now: SegWit was implemented on August 23, 2017. Why use Feb 26 (a couple months later)?

Quote from: tranthidung on October 21, 2020, 11:10:59 AM

It looks like there was a dusting spam attack somewhere in 2015, with many output addresses.

Quote from: bitmover on October 22, 2020, 12:18:47 AM

And there was still a block with 2992 legacy transactions (and zero segwit) in 2020!

I made a summary per day already. I can create one per block, but it takes some time so I'll only do it if someone's going to use it.

pooya87

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Quote from: bitmover on October 22, 2020, 12:18:47 AM

And there was still a block with 2992 legacy transactions (and zero segwit) in 2020! I searched to find out who that miner was (block 616561) with no success.

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/616561
Miner: Unkown (in blockchair and blockchain.com databases)

interesting find.
that block's coinbase's signature script is this:

Code:

03716809049f203f5efabe6d6d790aeab57d0c2c6db22acdf312204864aa6e0804d236bcfbf3193f216ac0aef8040000000000000008180052c2d7050000142f70726f68617368696e672e636f6d9b1d02002f

when encoded using UTF8 it contains the name "prohashing.com" which is a multi-coin mining pool.

block explorers usually mark these as "unknown" when the mining pool is small or when they don't have the name string in their hardcoded database.

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

Quote from: pooya87 on October 21, 2020, 11:45:54 PM

do you know the number of transactions in blocks with 100% legacy/SegWit transactions?

Yes, I have all of them:

Quote

it is possible that these blocks contain between 1 transaction (coinbase) and a handful of them which makes it easy to have 100% of one type only.

You are right, most of them are coinbase tx, but not all.

I filtered all blocks with less than 2 transactions here in these tables:

As we can see, 20% of all 0% segwit have more than 1 transaction (coinbase). Most of them in the begin, when adoption was still struggling...
But only 2% of 100% segwit blocks have more than 1 transaction.

And there was still a block with 2992 legacy transactions (and zero segwit) in 2020! I searched to find out who that miner was (block 616561) with no success.

https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/616561
Miner: Unkown (in blockchair and blockchain.com databases)

pooya87

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Quote from: bitmover on October 21, 2020, 12:55:08 PM

There are also 100% legacy blocks. Are there miners who still do not want to add segwit transactions in their blocks? That's a possibility.

do you know the number of transactions in blocks with 100% legacy/SegWit transactions?
it is possible that these blocks contain between 1 transaction (coinbase) and a handful of them which makes it easy to have 100% of one type only.

Quickseller

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Quote from: DaveF on October 19, 2020, 05:25:03 PM

How many addresses out there are cold storage / physical things that have funds sitting on them in legacy addresses?
They will probably be there for a long time.
How many are paper wallets?
There are a few other reasons I can think of that legacy is still around and being used.

-Dave

Some people followed a specific procedure to generate, secure and backup keys, or xpriv keys, and are confident the keys are secure and safe against loss. They may be nervous about generating new private keys for segwit addresses. I started using SW years ago, but this was my biggest hurdle to switch over.

tranthidung

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Quote from: bitmover on October 21, 2020, 12:55:08 PM

Which platform do you use? You are making nice graphics. It is not easy to do that in excel, unless you have a super computer (excel is so slow). powerbi?

You can use Stata, SPSS, R or Python. If you have good experience with Python, there are packages for you to use (on Python and on R as well). People have switched to use R or Python because they are free and of course much stronger and fastly updated with community contributions.

Excel is not good to play with plots and analyses.

Quote from: bitmover on October 21, 2020, 12:55:08 PM

I had problems with this chart as well. Those spikes are probably a data problem as I have them in my charts as well.

You can try with different recasting options (area, line, connected, scatter) and choose an option that gives you best plots. Cheesy

bitmover

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Quote from: LoyceV on October 21, 2020, 03:18:41 AM

Try a scatter graph instead of lines

Better result...
The data is not representative when we look at each block, as I said there are far too many 100% segwit blocks.

There are also 100% legacy blocks. Are there miners who still do not want to add segwit transactions in their blocks? That's a possibility. Take a look at the bottom of the chart.

Quote from: tranthidung on October 21, 2020, 11:10:59 AM

bitmover,

I don't get experience with Python and don't know how to use it. If you need help with time-series plots, I can help you with weekly updates.

Which platform do you use? You are making nice graphics. It is not easy to do that in excel, unless you have a super computer (excel is so slow). powerbi?

Quote from: tranthidung on October 21, 2020, 11:10:59 AM

This chart is beautiful.
but there is something wrong with the Legacy count in 2020. Legacy add count is still bigger than the bech32 and p2sh.
I made the same chart. Take a look:
Sorry, I understood what you did now: You didn't stack, it is not an area chart but a line chart.
I made a stacked version of yours now. My first chart had problems as well:

Quote from: tranthidung on October 21, 2020, 11:10:59 AM

I had problems with this chart as well. Those spikes are probably a data problem as I have them in my charts as well. I decided to make a 100% stacked bar, and the results were nicer:

tranthidung

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bitmover,

I don't get experience with Python and don't know how to use it. If you need help with time-series plots, I can help you with weekly updates.

Of course, I am supper happy if we can work together in the future.

LoyceV,

There are 4 time-series plots. I might polish them tomorrow with a narrower period and might stratified them over years.

Hope it helps! Cheesy

BrewMaster

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Quote from: franky1 on October 20, 2020, 12:08:25 PM

for me segwit is just the gateway address for LN. i still use legacy
yep i know they made legacy 4x more expensive. but thats just corporate politics at play to make people lean into wanting to use other networks. and i refuse to play their game because of it
heck segwit is not even cheaper then the 2015 promise of cheaper transactions.. and yep i stand by my point that its not segwit is cheaper. but devs made legacy more expensive.

just because the new thing is cheaper doesn't mean the old thing becomes more expensive. the legacy transactions have the same size as they always did and their fee is just as it has always been. the only thing that changed is that we are now computing fee based on virtual size and SegWit transactions have a smaller virtual size while legacy transactions have the same virtual size as before.

Quote

segwit complex code does not give it any intrinsic feature to explain the cost difference of legacy vs segwit

it is not complex at all, at least not any more complex than any other part of bitcoin. when you don't understand the bitcoin technology of course it is going to look complex to you.

LoyceV

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Quote from: bitmover on October 20, 2020, 08:44:04 PM

Very ugly chart.

Try a scatter graph instead of lines

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: franky1 on October 20, 2020, 12:08:25 PM

Quote from: BrewMaster on October 19, 2020, 01:20:37 PM

the best metric in my opinion is the number of SegWit inputs per block. for example if a block has 2000 transactions and that is 2500 inputs and out of those 1500 are SegWit inputs then you can say the adoption is 60%.

not really. many blocks are not filled with user transactions.. but mixer and exchange cold wallet fills and empties

also coins per address is not a fair measure because a exchange with 10,000 coins per single p2sh multisig. vs 10,000 people with 1btc on legacy. does not show the reality of usage.

for me segwit is just the gateway address for LN. i still use legacy
yep i know they made legacy 4x more expensive. but thats just corporate politics at play to make people lean into wanting to use other networks. and i refuse to play their game because of it
heck segwit is not even cheaper then the 2015 promise of cheaper transactions.. and yep i stand by my point that its not segwit is cheaper. but devs made legacy more expensive.

Besides being the least problematic onchain capacity increase, wasn't Segwit mainly a transaction malleability-problem fix, and brought other benefits for the network?