Seized coins sale - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Chronikka

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Quote from: cp1 on April 19, 2014, 11:00:15 PM

Quote from: Thralen on April 13, 2014, 03:46:12 PM

Do they even have the private keys for the addresses? I thought that the .gov had not recovered those. If they don't have them, they won't be selling...

Yes, they've already moved them to another address.

1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH
1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

cp1

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Stop using branwallets

Quote from: Thralen on April 13, 2014, 03:46:12 PM

Do they even have the private keys for the addresses? I thought that the .gov had not recovered those. If they don't have them, they won't be selling...

Yes, they've already moved them to another address.

JorgeStolfi

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Quote from: BitchicksHusband on April 15, 2014, 12:01:31 PM

There is no, "The government wants". The US doesn't work that way. Despite all the articles you see, we aren't that corrupt (yet).

There are strict laws that the US has to follow concerning the auction of the coins:

1. Once the case is over, they are required to auction the items to the public for market value. Until then, they are not allowed to.
2. It will be a private auction listed on one of their auction sites.
3. The coins will be listed in lots. I don't know how many lots, but at least 10 and probably no more than 1000, but if bitcoins are too much then, they may list even more lots (otherwise nobody could afford to buy them).
4. The coins will be held until DPR is proven guilty. And maybe even until his appeals are exhausted. That could take years.
5. They will probably stagger the ending dates of the lots over a 2-3 week period. They often do this with other things.

Yeah, I am not insider (or even a US citizen) but that agrees with my understanding of how civil servants think and work (being one myself). I would also guess that, probably

* The people in charge of the sale are not particularly motivated to obtain the maximum possible price for those coins, since their pay does not depend on that; but

* Their first concern is not doing anything that they could be reprimanded for, such as failing to follow the laws and regulations, or making clearly stupid decisions -- such as choosing lot sizes and dates that result in too few bids.

* As long as they get enough bids, they will not care for the effect of the sale on the BTC price.

* They will not care if someone buys the coins for X at the auction and immediately sells them for 2*X. That sort of thing happens all the time at government auctions.

* In their view, all the coins and other assets seized from SilkRoad belong to DPR (& associates?). If the court confirms the seizure and authorizes the auction, all the money goes to the US Govt. Otherwise, all the assets will be returned to DPR. The concept of "client of SilkRoad" must be meaningless before US law, except for its bad implicatons.

Makes sense?

Sage

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Quote from: zeeshanblc on April 13, 2014, 03:13:00 AM

it's so sad how fragile BTC actually is Sad

LOL

Yep, so fragile a fork, relentless attacks, ridiculous IRS rulings, Gox, & government bans have yet to kill it.

Even if you bought at the top of the $30 & $266 bubble, at $450 now, show me any investment that has matched it!

Yep, fragile...

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: BitchicksHusband on April 15, 2014, 11:49:44 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on April 14, 2014, 05:01:07 AM

Quote from: semaforo on April 14, 2014, 02:13:26 AM

They have to prove Ross Ulbrecht's guilt first- that may take a while.

Even if they succeed in it, there is no way to prove that all of the coins belong to him. Actually they belongs to dozens of Silk Road users and vendors, with most of them outside the US jurisdiction.

That hasn't stopped them in the MegaUpload case. They seized everyone's files (in the world) and tried to destroy them, and most of those people were outside US jurisdiction.

Then this is a very bad news. But I hope someone will argue that destroying files is noway similar to seizing currency from someone's account. In case of those files, they can argue that some of them were illegal. But in the case of currency, there will be no such arguments.

counter

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Time is on our side, yes it is!

Yea I'm on the opinion they would hold for the best time to maximize profits. So it would be strategic and cause alot of weak hands to let go.

Chronikka

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Quote from: BitchicksHusband on April 15, 2014, 12:01:31 PM

Quote from: Chronikka on April 14, 2014, 06:43:06 AM

I don't understand why people freak out so much about the price dropping. You would think people would be more concerned that the US government has such a large holding of Bitcoin.

When they sell them they will be redistributing the coins. Yes the price will drop but coins taken out of circulation by the US all of a sudden go back into circulation. The US government can only strengthen its position against bitcoin if it holds the coins. They don't possess enough to truly tank the market if they sell everything now.

My guess is that government has no intention of selling its bitcoins any time soon. They are just like the rest of us right now...waiting to see where this is gonna go

There is no, "The government wants". The US doesn't work that way. Despite all the articles you see, we aren't that corrupt (yet).

There are strict laws that the US has to follow concerning the auction of the coins:

1. Once the case is over, they are required to auction the items to the public for market value. Until then, they are not allowed to.
2. It will be a private auction listed on one of their auction sites.
3. The coins will be listed in lots. I don't know how many lots, but at least 10 and probably no more than 1000, but if bitcoins are too much then, they may list even more lots (otherwise nobody could afford to buy them).
4. The coins will be held until DPR is proven guilty. And maybe even until his appeals are exhausted. That could take years.
5. They will probably stagger the ending dates of the lots over a 2-3 week period. They often do this with other things.

But do those laws apply to bitcoin? The purpose of forfeiture laws is solely to raise money. Forfeited items are sold at market value and the money from the sale is put in The Department of Justice Asset Forfeiture Program.

http://www.justice.gov/jmd/afp/02fundreport/02_2.html

But what happens when money is seized? There is no sale. No auction. The money goes straight into the fund to be used on other LE activites and government programs.

So what about bitcoin? Is it seized property or seized currency? If they classify it as a currency then they could sit on it. No sale would be required. They would at some point have to spend it, but why not wait a year, 2 years, 10 years?

BitchicksHusband

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Quote from: Chronikka on April 14, 2014, 06:43:06 AM

I don't understand why people freak out so much about the price dropping. You would think people would be more concerned that the US government has such a large holding of Bitcoin.

When they sell them they will be redistributing the coins. Yes the price will drop but coins taken out of circulation by the US all of a sudden go back into circulation. The US government can only strengthen its position against bitcoin if it holds the coins. They don't possess enough to truly tank the market if they sell everything now.

My guess is that government has no intention of selling its bitcoins any time soon. They are just like the rest of us right now...waiting to see where this is gonna go

There is no, "The government wants". The US doesn't work that way. Despite all the articles you see, we aren't that corrupt (yet).

There are strict laws that the US has to follow concerning the auction of the coins:

1. Once the case is over, they are required to auction the items to the public for market value. Until then, they are not allowed to.
2. It will be a private auction listed on one of their auction sites.
3. The coins will be listed in lots. I don't know how many lots, but at least 10 and probably no more than 1000, but if bitcoins are too much then, they may list even more lots (otherwise nobody could afford to buy them).
4. The coins will be held until DPR is proven guilty. And maybe even until his appeals are exhausted. That could take years.
5. They will probably stagger the ending dates of the lots over a 2-3 week period. They often do this with other things.

BitchicksHusband

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 255

Quote from: bryant.coleman on April 14, 2014, 05:01:07 AM

Quote from: semaforo on April 14, 2014, 02:13:26 AM

They have to prove Ross Ulbrecht's guilt first- that may take a while.

Even if they succeed in it, there is no way to prove that all of the coins belong to him. Actually they belongs to dozens of Silk Road users and vendors, with most of them outside the US jurisdiction.

That hasn't stopped them in the MegaUpload case. They seized everyone's files (in the world) and tried to destroy them, and most of those people were outside US jurisdiction.

BitchicksHusband

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 255

Quote from: Thralen on April 13, 2014, 03:46:12 PM

Do they even have the private keys for the addresses? I thought that the .gov had not recovered those. If they don't have them, they won't be selling...

They transferred them, so I am going to have to say, "yes".

jparsley

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Another factor to watch for when trading

Chronikka

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Activity: 658

Merit: 504

I don't understand why people freak out so much about the price dropping. You would think people would be more concerned that the US government has such a large holding of Bitcoin.

When they sell them they will be redistributing the coins. Yes the price will drop but coins taken out of circulation by the US all of a sudden go back into circulation. The US government can only strengthen its position against bitcoin if it holds the coins. They don't possess enough to truly tank the market if they sell everything now.

My guess is that government has no intention of selling its bitcoins any time soon. They are just like the rest of us right now...waiting to see where this is gonna go

AT101ET

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When the coins are sold, they'll probably be sold off in smaller amounts. It wouldn't be possible for them to sell the coins in one go as who'd buy them all?
I'd say they'll be sold off over a period of a couple of weeks.
With the ease of supply, the price won't be affected too much. In this case it's not about an increase in supply as the coins are already in circulation. It would be more of a case of buyer confidence that would determine whether or not the price level would be affected. If people believe in BTC for what it is, it'd get snatched up at the market rate. If you only look at BTC in terms of its USD parallel then yes, price may fall quite a bit.
Remember, when you're valuing the coins at 12.5m, that's at the current market price. Who'd spend 12.5m if they know as soon as they'd buy it, it would drastically drop in price Huh

IMO, there's no need to be concerned.

zeeshanblc

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on April 14, 2014, 05:01:07 AM

Quote from: semaforo on April 14, 2014, 02:13:26 AM

They have to prove Ross Ulbrecht's guilt first- that may take a while.

Even if they succeed in it, there is no way to prove that all of the coins belong to him. Actually they belongs to dozens of Silk Road users and vendors, with most of them outside the US jurisdiction.

this is a good point, I did not think of that at all

zolace

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Quote from: zeeshanblc on April 13, 2014, 02:58:08 AM

What if(when) feds decide to sell seized coins?

https://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX
https://blockchain.info/address/1FfmbHfnpaZjKFvyi1okTjJJusN455paPH

Can you imagine price drop, panic it would create and how would ignorant people react if they start selling all they have when fake news from China comes out.

It would totally saturate exchanges

They won't sell the seized coins.....at least not yet!

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: semaforo on April 14, 2014, 02:13:26 AM

They have to prove Ross Ulbrecht's guilt first- that may take a while.

Even if they succeed in it, there is no way to prove that all of the coins belong to him. Actually they belongs to dozens of Silk Road users and vendors, with most of them outside the US jurisdiction.

saif92

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Activity: 392

Merit: 250

Quote from: jdun on April 14, 2014, 12:39:20 AM

Can they legally do that? The coins are internationally owned, and no government has international jurisdiction.

Some time they no need any law or any jurisdiction about this they have power they can do this

maurya78

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Hmm. The US govt has a (tax) stake now so unlikely to dump the coins without thought for market impact

semaforo

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They have to prove Ross Ulbrecht's guilt first- that may take a while.

freedomno1

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Learning the troll avoidance button :)

Quote from: jdun on April 14, 2014, 12:39:20 AM

Can they legally do that? The coins are internationally owned, and no government has international jurisdiction.

I would love to see the drug dealer who asks for his money back from the FBI
Uh this violates the law these are my Bitcoins
Why don't you have a seat
Uh Nvm

Topic: Seized coins sale - page 2. (Read 5027 times)