Selling short in an exchange...the biggest scam of all

THeZoiD

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Quote from: alabamafan1 on April 24, 2014, 08:02:23 PM

Think about it, exchanges make hundreds of bitcoins through the trades...what do they do with all these coins they made thru profit? I'd say they manipulate the markets. Those 0.50% trading fees add up quick.

i get your point but...

if you spend time to develop a trading site and take the responsability that goes with it...

you deserve to make money...its just fare

if you want you can start your own...

im happy to pay the fees for the service thoes sites provide.

THeZoiD

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short selling is not the real danger for small investor...

im not happy when i loose from it...but im the first to do it when i get the chance...lol

the real danger for small trader is the whales... There is not anough people into cryptocurrency to control this

the whale gonna put a verry large sale to prevent price from going up...

the he would offer small amount of coins at small price(to drive the price down) and buy as much as they can...

then remove the wall(on the sale side) to allow the price going up...

and the coins they got at low price...sale it at top price

we need way more people mining and tradind to stop that

the reason i cant do that is...im too small...lol...people just buy off my wall...

alabamafan1

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Think about it, exchanges make hundreds of bitcoins through the trades...what do they do with all these coins they made thru profit? I'd say they manipulate the markets. Those 0.50% trading fees add up quick.

dyask

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 24, 2014, 07:12:23 PM

Quote from: dyask on April 24, 2014, 07:09:53 PM

Doesn't mean there is any shorting going on. I doubt it even can be shorted. There never was enough value in AUR for shorting.

Air went to 0.15 BTC. ...
But you still don't get it. The whole crypto landscape is growing very fast. It makes sense to get in on the ground floor, to see what works.
People are doing this in every conceivable way.

Again you are the one making claims, you are the one that has to present evidence to back up your claims.

adhitthana

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Quote from: dyask on April 24, 2014, 07:09:53 PM

Doesn't mean there is any shorting going on. I doubt it even can be shorted. There never was enough value in AUR for shorting.

Air went to 0.15 BTC. ...
But you still don't get it. The whole crypto landscape is growing very fast. It makes sense to get in on the ground floor, to see what works.
People are doing this in every conceivable way.

dyask

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Activity: 854

Merit: 510

Quote from: adhitthana on April 24, 2014, 07:06:47 PM

Quote from: dyask on April 24, 2014, 08:50:16 AM

AUR is going down because it was pumped up far higher that it should have been. Now there is too much supply for the demand.

I agree. But you still haven't understood. This is exactly the sort of coin a shorter would like to target. The coin wnet too high. There is an unusual supply due to the airdrop.
This makes it an easy target for "shorters".
Think about it.

Doesn't mean there is any shorting going on. I doubt it even can be shorted. There never was enough value in AUR for shorting.

adhitthana

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Quote from: dyask on April 24, 2014, 08:50:16 AM

AUR is going down because it was pumped up far higher that it should have been. Now there is too much supply for the demand.

I agree. But you still haven't understood. This is exactly the sort of coin a shorter would like to target. The coin went too high. There is an unusual supply due to the airdrop.
This makes it an easy target for "shorters".
Think about it.

You have argued that it's not shorters targeting the coin but that other circumstances make the coin weak. But both can be true.
Why would someone adopt a strategy of shorting a coin if there was lots of demand and a short supply?

adhitthana

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Quote from: Keyser Soze on April 24, 2014, 11:31:09 AM

I have serious doubts about the sophisticated trading and market making you claim in these tiny alt coins,

The whole thing is an experiment. The whole crypto landscape is changing so fast. Why wouldn't someone xperiemnt to see wht works...to see what will happen. To be there in place if the crypto world grows.

adhitthana

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Quote from: Keyser Soze on April 24, 2014, 11:31:09 AM

If this was the case, why wouldn't the exchange just naked short themselves? Why allow these "market makers" (using the term loosely here) to naked short, when they can do it themselves and make more profit?

They may...but it's probably not their area of expertise

dyask

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 24, 2014, 08:18:38 AM

If you want to try to make your case you need to refute them. At the moment you have not responded to them, The place for you to start is to go back, read them , and respond.

Wrong, you are the one making the scam claims. It is your task to back up your claims with evidence. You haven't done that.

Quote from: adhitthana on April 24, 2014, 08:18:38 AM

You have no experience with computer trading programs, as I have over several years on a daily basis. You have a small amount of experience with doing whatever your broker told you and siging whatever he told you to sign, without even understanding it.

Again you are just saying things. I have actually written a trading program and also used it. Also you don't seem to have any experience with brokers. The only time there was ever anything to sign was when opening up an account. Even that wasn't consistent.

Keyser Soze

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 24, 2014, 08:18:38 AM

I have outlined the specifics of the strategies that have been happeing in AUR.

I have serious doubts about the sophisticated trading and market making you claim in these tiny alt coins, such as AUR. You do realize AUR's market cap is less then $1 million and has extremely low liquidity right? It seems to me that this is nothing more then a pump and dump, like many of the alt coins out there.

Quote from: adhitthana on April 23, 2014, 06:43:56 PM

I expect the market makers went and said similar kinds of things they say to other financial exchanges.

"Give us the ability to sell short (in this case) and we will increase your volume ,and you will make more money."

If this was the case, why wouldn't the exchange just naked short themselves? Why allow these "market makers" (using the term loosely here) to naked short, when they can do it themselves and make more profit?

dyask

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 24, 2014, 08:18:38 AM

Quote from: dyask on April 23, 2014, 11:59:31 PM

What evidence? You have given no evidence. So far the only scam here is the FUD you are trying to create.

There is no need to try to make this personal.
I have outlined the specifics of the strategies that have been happeing in AUR.

So you have nothing and are just making up nonsense. AUR is going down because it was pumped up far higher that it should have been. Now there is too much supply for the demand. In fact is still probably priced too high. Short selling doesn't make things just go down, it has to be covered and that causes buying pressure. Anyway, no way that program traders would even be interested in something like AUR.

BTC went through the same types of cycles as AUR. So do you think it was short traders that cause those when BTC wasn't even trading for a dollar?

adhitthana

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Quote from: dyask on April 23, 2014, 11:59:31 PM

What evidence? You have given no evidence. So far the only scam here is the FUD you are trying to create.

There is no need to try to make this personal.
I have outlined the specifics of the strategies that have been happeing in AUR.

If you want to try to make your case you need to refute them. At the moment you have not responded to them, The place for you to start is to go back, read them , and respond.
It's not that hard. It's easy...you just go back..read them...then take the time to investigate them,,,as I did , and explain why you agree or disagree.
The ball is in your court.
At the moment you are just digging your heels in, although you, from the evidence here (or lack of) have made no effort, put no time into investigating, the claims I made. You got personally offended by something and now are determined to oppose what I have said without making any attempt to investigate it.
If you had investigated it you would have made a specific comment about what I wrote...

You have no experience with computer trading programs, as I have over several years on a daily basis. You have a small amount of experience with doing whatever your broker told you and siging whatever he told you to sign, without even understanding it.

Why are you even bothering to come back when you haven't even bothered to investigate what I said?

dyask

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 23, 2014, 06:43:56 PM

Quote from: Keyser Soze on April 23, 2014, 02:20:41 PM

It essentially sounds like you are claiming that exchanges are naked shorting. Well, either the exchange itself or the exchange is allowing a select number of traders to naked short.......

Unless the exchange has some way of proving they hold 100% of user's balances, this is a possibility.

It's the only conclusion I can come to that explains the evidence I see.
Why else would the computer programs be using strategies designed to be implemented after a short position is established?

I expect the market makers went and said similar kinds of things they say to other financial exchanges.

"Give us the ability to sell short (in this case) and we will increase your volume ,and you will make more money."

What evidence? You have given no evidence. So far the only scam here is the FUD you are trying to create.

adhitthana

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Activity: 1190

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Quote from: Keyser Soze on April 23, 2014, 02:20:41 PM

It essentially sounds like you are claiming that exchanges are naked shorting. Well, either the exchange itself or the exchange is allowing a select number of traders to naked short.......

Unless the exchange has some way of proving they hold 100% of user's balances, this is a possibility.

It's the only conclusion I can come to that explains the evidence I see.
Why else would the computer programs be using strategies designed to be implemented after a short position is established?

I expect the market makers went and said similar kinds of things they say to other financial exchanges.

"Give us the ability to sell short (in this case) and we will increase your volume ,and you will make more money."

Keyser Soze

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It essentially sounds like you are claiming that exchanges are naked shorting. Well, either the exchange itself or the exchange is allowing a select number of traders to naked short. As previously stated, the concept of a "hot" or "cold" wallet has nothing to do with this discussion.

Unless the exchange has some way of proving they hold 100% of user's balances, this is a possibility. Some exchanges are working towards proving their liquidity or may have already in some fashion.

dyask

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 23, 2014, 03:00:49 AM

Quote from: dyask on April 23, 2014, 02:31:17 AM

You don't have to trust. An exchange can easily prove it has 100% of the coins and procedures are being set up to make that happen. Some exchanges have already stepped up and proved it.

http://www.coindesk.com/vault-satoshi-announces-proof-solvency-service/

How did you you turn one exchange, into some exchanges Huh

Don't you know anything that going on in the digital currency world?

http://www.coindesk.com/coinfloor-become-first-publicly-auditable-bitcoin-exchange/
http://www.coindesk.com/krakens-audit-proves-holds-100-bitcoins-reserve/

adhitthana

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Quote from: dyask on April 23, 2014, 02:31:17 AM

You don't have to trust. An exchange can easily prove it has 100% of the coins and procedures are being set up to make that happen. Some exchanges have already stepped up and proved it.

http://www.coindesk.com/vault-satoshi-announces-proof-solvency-service/

How did you you turn one exchange, into some exchanges Huh

dyask

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Quote from: adhitthana on April 23, 2014, 02:12:06 AM

Quote from: dyask on April 23, 2014, 12:31:53 AM

If the exchange maintains 100% reserves there isn't any additional risk.

Ok...so despite all the problems (such as Mount Gox) and despite the lack of any visibility you want to trust a crypto exchange and assume it has 100% reserves? Huh

You don't have to trust. An exchange can easily prove it has 100% of the coins and procedures are being set up to make that happen. Some exchanges have already stepped up and proved it.

http://www.coindesk.com/vault-satoshi-announces-proof-solvency-service/

adhitthana

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Quote from: dyask on April 23, 2014, 12:31:53 AM

If the exchange maintains 100% reserves there isn't any additional risk.

Ok...so despite all the problems (such as Mount Gox) and despite the lack of any visibility you want to trust a crypto exchange and assume it has 100% reserves? Huh

Added in edit: This looks like a good development though.

http://www.coindesk.com/vault-satoshi-announces-proof-solvency-service/

Topic: Selling short in an exchange...the biggest scam of all (Read 4420 times)