September 27, 2011 U.S.Department of the Treasury might regulate BitCoin - page 2.

BCEmporium

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Quote from: bitrebel on August 03, 2011, 09:32:25 PM

No no no, your mistaken. Even if you're not American you have to go by American laws. Don't believe me? Just wait. After North Korea and Iran and Libya, your Next buddy!

Looks like Libya isn't going down that easy, doesn't it? Let alone N Korea and Iran. And what about China and Russia? Putin just called US an economic parasite whereas launched the re-equip of Russia... looks like US's reign of terror is about to end rather than someone "to be next".

Exonumia

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Quote from: ctoon6 on August 03, 2011, 09:29:49 PM

Quote from: BidBitcoins on August 03, 2011, 09:27:31 PM

Quote from: Exonumia on August 03, 2011, 09:21:02 PM

I understood the main reason for this legislation was to close the anonymous pre-paid phone accounts... that is they are not happy that you can use a phone without it being tied to your name/address. The whole thing is silly, however, as those with criminal intent will just use others credentials to purchase.

I don't think that's what it is. Anyone can get a Metro PCS phone without ID. I think it's the fact that stored value cards are used to launder drug money. The Treasury issued a Memorandum about this a few years back. They claimed it was the number one way people were avoiding taxes and laundering drug money.

legalize drugs.

reasons: less money spent on catching criminals and keeping them locked up.
heavily tax the drugs, they would still be cheaper than off the street.

tada! half the money laundering is now gone.

We can't have them competing with Big Pharma now can we...

Seriously I agree with you in all points... the problem is there is no organized bribery... I mean lobby group for the "illicit" drug sellers.

bitrebel

sr. member

Activity: 364

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Quote from: BCEmporium on August 03, 2011, 09:30:08 PM

Gosh! You guys never let me down on amaze me with prepotency!
WTF do I care for an US "act"?! In my jurisdiction "US acts" can be used for toilet paper, like in the remaining 95% of the World... the bankrupt treasury of US should be more concerned about pay its huge over 100% of GDP debt rather than "regulate" an international borderless e-currency which doesn't belong to USA.
Well, if you're American you must abide your country laws, but that's it.

No no no, your mistaken. Even if you're not American you have to go by American laws. Don't believe me? Just wait. After North Korea and Iran and Libya, your Next buddy!

BCEmporium

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1000

Gosh! You guys never let me down on amaze me with prepotency!
WTF do I care for an US "act"?! In my jurisdiction "US acts" can be used for toilet paper, like in the remaining 95% of the World... the bankrupt treasury of US should be more concerned about pay its huge over 100% of GDP debt rather than "regulate" an international borderless e-currency which doesn't belong to USA.
Well, if you're American you must abide your country laws, but that's it.

ctoon6

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 251

Quote from: BidBitcoins on August 03, 2011, 09:27:31 PM

Quote from: Exonumia on August 03, 2011, 09:21:02 PM

I understood the main reason for this legislation was to close the anonymous pre-paid phone accounts... that is they are not happy that you can use a phone without it being tied to your name/address. The whole thing is silly, however, as those with criminal intent will just use others credentials to purchase.

I don't think that's what it is. Anyone can get a Metro PCS phone without ID. I think it's the fact that stored value cards are used to launder drug money. The Treasury issued a Memorandum about this a few years back. They claimed it was the number one way people were avoiding taxes and laundering drug money.

legalize drugs.

reasons: less money spent on catching criminals and keeping them locked up.
heavily tax the drugs, they would still be cheaper than off the street.

tada! half the money laundering is now gone.

BidBitcoins

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: Exonumia on August 03, 2011, 09:21:02 PM

I understood the main reason for this legislation was to close the anonymous pre-paid phone accounts... that is they are not happy that you can use a phone without it being tied to your name/address. The whole thing is silly, however, as those with criminal intent will just use others credentials to purchase.

I don't think that's what it is. Anyone can get a Metro PCS phone without ID. I think it's the fact that stored value cards are used to launder drug money. The Treasury issued a Memorandum about this a few years back. They claimed it was the number one way people were avoiding taxes and laundering drug money.

ctoon6

sr. member

Activity: 350

Merit: 251

I think its time we set up a decentralized information network with wireless mesh.

Exonumia

full member

Activity: 189

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I understood the main reason for this legislation was to close the anonymous pre-paid phone accounts... that is they are not happy that you can use a phone without it being tied to your name/address. The whole thing is silly, however, as those with criminal intent will just use others credentials to purchase.

nmat

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 502

Quote from: BTC_Junkie on August 03, 2011, 09:00:34 PM

So even disregarding its application to bitcoins.... you will need to show ID to buy an amazon.com gift card?

Now that's a relevant question. If so, amazon gift cards will get extremely unpopular.

BTC_Junkie

member

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So even disregarding its application to bitcoins.... you will need to show ID to buy an amazon.com gift card?

nhodges

sr. member

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: kgo on August 03, 2011, 10:45:35 AM

I don't see how sending or receiving of bitcoins would constitute free speech.

Maybe if we called each other up on the phone and spoke the hashes Cheesy

Can you say charged for conspiracy to defraud the US Treasury? Cheesy

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: Nesetalis on August 03, 2011, 11:44:02 AM

bitcoins are information, strings of bytes. That is communicated from one computer to another through the network..
thats how it falls under free speech.

If that were true, "I'll give you $50,000 if you kill my wife" would be lawful speech as well, but we know it's not.

bitrebel

sr. member

Activity: 364

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No matter what you think or want to argue, bit coin is NOT "pre-paid financial instruments".

So Bitcoins cannot be legally included in this definition or this law. It applies to all items used to store DOLLAR value. Even when you buy WOW gold, it's still denominated in dollars. Bitcoins are not dollars, so therefore items that utilize bitcoins exclusively are not included in US legislation of this kind.

da judge has spoken

kgo

hero member

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Quote from: Nesetalis on August 03, 2011, 11:44:02 AM

bitcoins are information, strings of bytes. That is communicated from one computer to another through the network..
thats how it falls under free speech.

So modern day money-laundering is free speech too? Because the same argument applies to bank transfers.

RogerR

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Quote from: nmat on August 03, 2011, 11:50:56 AM

Quote from: Nesetalis on August 03, 2011, 11:44:02 AM

bitcoins are information, strings of bytes. That is communicated from one computer to another through the network..
thats how it falls under free speech.

Dollar transactions are strings of bytes communicated between banks Roll Eyes

Bitcoin is a currency. It isn't free speech.

I think someone with easy access to a lawyer should check out if this applies to bitcoin or not (or maybe contact FinCEN directly).

I doubt this is correct. Interbank data transmissions are contracts to commit assets stored at central clearing organizations to be deposited at counterparty accounts within said clearing organizations. They may be similar to a currency, but they are not the same.

Let me give you a short example: If Clearstream (a central European clearing house) was to lose it's credibility tomorrow, the stored money/assets would still be valuable, but the Clearstream transmissions themselves could easily be considered worthless.

Not a contract lawer though, but this is my impression as a former Fixed Income trader who actually had to deal with the bank liquidity business before.

wareen

legendary

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Revolutionizing Brokerage of Personal Data

Quote from: Nesetalis on August 03, 2011, 11:44:02 AM

bitcoins are information, strings of bytes. That is communicated from one computer to another through the network..
thats how it falls under free speech.

Right - no data packet can be illegal so luckily there will never be any crime on the Internet Wink

While I don't think freedom of speech can be successfully applied to Bitcoin, I'm not so sure if it is easy to cover Bitcoin with any conventional definition of "pre-paid financial instruments" either.

Quote from: apetersson on August 03, 2011, 08:55:02 AM

Note that Germany has passed a similar law, which might also apply to Bitcoin.

I beg to differ - a German attorney came to the conclusion that under current jurisdiction, Bitcoin is not a currency but a commodity. According to this thread, Germany's Federal Financial Supervisory Authority also stated in a response to a lawyer of a forum member that Bitcoins are specifically not "e-Geld" (e-money) and as such do not fall under the recently proposed anti money laundering draft law 317/11 you're probably referring to.

I personally expect Bitcoin exchanges to be regulated soon but merchants accepting Bitcoins as payments or individuals paying with Bitcoins will most probably not be covered by any conventional laws (ie. laws not specifically crafted for P2P cryptocurrencies) for the foreseeable future.

BioMike

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Quote from: http://www.bitcoinmoney.com/post/8412471372/fincen-prepaid-access-final-rule

Last month FinCEN issued a ruling that was intended to clarify the definition of an MSB and includes the possibility that even businesses outside the U.S. conducting money transfer over the Internet could still be classified as U.S. MSBs. Additionally, the definition no longer requires that an MSB be a business — any individual who receives funds in exchange for a stored value might be considered an MSB.

I'm no lawyer, but reading this gives me the following question: if I (in Europe) sell bitcoins (over internet == USA) to some other European person for money... I have to report it to FinCEN?

Plus, op topic, FinCEN can't track EVERY transaction, so seems a bit impractical to me. So what prevents people from civil disobedience?

nhodges

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Quote from: nmat on August 03, 2011, 06:26:02 AM

You do realize that, in your example, BitProxy cannot operate legally, right? If you take bitcoins from someone without knowing his/her personal details, you are doing an illegal trade.

But it is arguable that the signature generated from their private key is indeed identifiable and unique detail. It's the damned if you do, damned if you don't situation all over again. You can fight both sides of this case, but whoever has more money will win in court.

hugolp

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Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol

Quote from: ?? on ??

Since when anyone in US cares about The Constitution? I thought there are like dozens of current and enforced laws which are clearly in direct violation of The Constitution. Anyone would like to list top 100?

"The constitution is just a piece of paper"

George Bush

Rassah

legendary

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Quote from: nmat on August 03, 2011, 11:50:56 AM

Quote from: Nesetalis on August 03, 2011, 11:44:02 AM

bitcoins are information, strings of bytes. That is communicated from one computer to another through the network..
thats how it falls under free speech.

Dollar transactions are strings of bytes communicated between banks Roll Eyes

Bitcoin is a currency. It isn't free speech.

I think someone with easy access to a lawyer should check out if this applies to bitcoin or not (or maybe contact FinCEN directly).

Well, according to the Citizens United Supreme Court ruling, money == speech...

Topic: September 27, 2011 U.S.Department of the Treasury might regulate BitCoin - page 2. (Read 5780 times)