Topic: -- Seriously wealth destroying phenomenon happening at accelerated rate! -- - page 2. (Read 2788 times)

It's wrong, innovation doesn't pay. Neocoin is an innovative coin with uniques features and much time spent and some copycat coins without real work are more valuable. It's why you won't find much real programmers with talent and skill who spend their time and their programming knowledge on this stuff. It's much profitable to spend time to create softwares and sell them with paypal or other payment methods.

The key to success to make a popular altcoin is an aggressive marketing, rare rewards and other scam scenarios, that's all.

Have no fear, the law of supply and demand is here.

I read someone predicting that people were going to lose their life savings? I hope individuals are not investing their life savings into alt coins. Not a good idea. The bottom line is "developers" are going to keep cranking out coins until it is no longer profitable to do so. Back in the early 90's the same thing was happening with search engines, it seemed like a new search engine was being cranked out each day. Eventually the market decided which search engines were valuable and the others fell by the waist side.

There is a temptation to blame the exchanges, but ultimately it will be the market that decides which coins succeed, which coins have value, and which ones are worthless.

They aren't even useful for games, because they are so insanely insecure.

Until you have a difficulty high enough that the gangbanging pools cannot shift your difficulty by their coming and going from your coin, you are almost less than a toy even, since serious players tend to like their toys to be at least somewhat durable. They don't like to wake up and find the coins they spent all night killing goblins to get are gone or whatever.

Maybe the first thing a new coin should do is get legally binding contracts with enough miners to ensure the hashing power for the first year will be at least twice the total of the high points of the last year of hashing power of all the gang-bang pools. If not enough people are confident enough in the proposed new coin to commit their mining power to it for a year maybe the proposal needs some work before bothering to implement the thing.

-MarkM-

they offer nothing new. only new devs and new names. only very few of them offer new functions. CPU coins, even when they are as awesome as primecoin, almost cannot succeed due to botnets etc.

my best guess is that coins with at least moderate marketing and new functions/good devs (see anoncoin or megacoin) have a SHOT. that's it. a shot.

the bullion is doing excellent marketing stuff. that is another route to go.

90% of the coins here are just complete copycats that changed some parameters and image files in the client. you cannot really produce eternal value this way again and again and again and expect it to succeed in 100% of the cases. suckers can only invest so much money in tulips before they smell the bacon.

Its because the alts have to evaluate more than bitcoin in order to be profitable.
If bitcoin goes up 10% and alt has to go up +10%.
I would argue that alts do better when bitcoins goes down in value, which is not often.
Right now I'm keeping my eye on one particular coin.
But I want it to come down so I can buy it for cheap so its name shall remain anonymous. *wink wink* 

The whole vibe of this post seems to imply that most of these coins had value to begin with.  The reality is probably at least 90% (if not more) had no real value to begin with, nor do they have much future potential.  The phenomenon you describe isn't wealth being destroyed, its markets correcting themselves.

The real problem here isn't so much the auto-dumpers, as much as it is the exchanges giving them the vehicle.  Back when I started in Crypto, when a new coin came out, your only option to move it was via forum trades, and I used to make 50-100x what you usually can these days on exchanges like Cryptsy/coins-e/bter/whatever.  Is that because the coin was more valuable?  No not really, its because it had no real open market to set its value appropriately.

But how can you blame exchange X.  If they didn't add it, some other exchange would and we'd just be complaining about them instead.   And if they didn't really have value to begin with, is it the exchanges fault for bringing that to light sooner in a coins life than it otherwise would?

Whats a new coins value a week or two after launch,  that has no new inovations and brings nothing new to the table?  I'd argue its pretty much 0.  If its listed any higher than that, aren't we all ending up ahead?

Maybe everyone just got bored by the idea of endless alts.  Mine were sitting there a while and then I decided I might as well dump them all for something that has more volume.

Related: http://falkvinge.net/2013/09/13/bitcoins-vast-overvaluation-seems-to-be-caused-by-usually-illegal-price-fixing/

ZenithCoin... one case example.

Agreed. Cryptsy is a dumping ground for miners and scamcoin devs. Somewhere to sell off their unwanted useless coins, count their winnings, and repeat.

Its like a Second Hand/Thrift store, mostly full of rubbish which nobody wants, but a big attraction to naive customers who think they are picking up a bargain.

It is up to the buyer to do their homework, to read up and understand what they are putting their money into. As there are sometimes jewels hidden among the rabble. Does it have a future? Does it have a purpose? Does it have a use? Is it nothing more than an imitation of something with real value? Is it actively being promoted, developed, and accepted as payment by a growing number of services.

Anyone can walk into one of these stores and have the owner/maker tell you what is the best thing for you to buy, and watch you go ahead and buy it. It doesn't mean its the best thing for you. More than likely the most profitable thing for him to sell, and probably something that is hard to pass on to the next fool without a loss.

Do your research before buying any coin, off any exchange. Know where it came from, know where it's at, and be more than sure to know where its heading.



 

Its bad for a coin to be listed on an exchange before it has enough difficulty that the gangbang pools cannot make much if any dent in their difficulty.

That is because it is the price in the exchanges that attracts the gangbangers in the first place.

There is much much better profit made mining or buying coins that are NOT listed on exchanges then there is in bothering with the crapcoins whose main purpose in life is to get on an exchange so they can dump. So really the longer your coin manages to NOT get onto an exchange the better, unless your goal is simply to dump it as fast as possible and move on to something else.

Also, just because hundreds or thousands of scammers demand a place to dump their useless shit doesn't make the place they dump it a good place to buy good things.

-MarkM-

Multipools + AutoSell

Its more profitable to mine alts and then convert to BTC, several multipools are out there now attracting people with claims of "Always be mining the most profitable coin" but just look at coinchoose, refresh it every 5 minutes and you see the top coin changes all the time because the pools mess with difficulty in a big way.

regular miners end up getting screwed over by massively high difficulties after only a few minutes of the huge hash rate multipool being on the coin.

eventually miners realise its not profitable to mine the coin most of the time and move to another, which just leaves the daily dumping of the coin for the multipools.

which leads to the eventual demise of coins being mined by the pool.


This isnt the only factor, but im fairly sure its a big one!




(MarkM why do you dislike Cryptsy so much? they list coins people want listed, there are always lovers and haters of coins but im pretty sure very few were created to be an out right scam, and it appears if a Dev has a real life as well as a coin the public class them as a scammer.  - What actually goes into maintaining a coin?? Personally i havent a clue as i havent ever made one. but i do know about other areas of IT (Web design/running online games/hosting forums among other things)  and it has been a constant battle to try and explain to people just how much work goes into the tiniest of things, when they demand their features NOW!. so I wouldnt want to see every busy dev being classed a scammer (I mean look at RealSolid - he has armies of people claiming he's a scammer, but also armies of people claiming hes a top bloke. - always seems to be 6 of 1 and half a dozen of the other >.< so it makes it rather difficult to spot what may actually be a scam at the end of the day. - I think we might  need a Scam Police group with strict guidelines of what is and what isn't a scam. ) Best thing to do on exchanges is not listen to the troll boxes ;-) their great entertainment but definitely not for financial advice!

anywho didnt want to go off topic there but I always seem to >.<

back on topic.

I blame Multipools and Autosell ;-)

All the best

Stuart

I am not saying close the exchange, I am just saying if you want to be ripped off or to rip people off go to the scammy exchange that have all the latst rippoffs of the day, if not then patronise exchanges that try harder to pick only coins that might actually be worthwhile.

If you insist on buying from sleazy fences in back alleys its silly to complain about what you end up buying.

Shop at a butcher's you're likely to end up with meat, shop at a jewelry store you're likely to end up with jewelry. Shop at scam of the day shop and you're likely to end up with scam of the day. So pick what specialty you want and shop at a place that specialises in it.

A bunch of exchanges clearly specialise in scams such as pre-mines, instamines, cut-and-paste jobs etc. Don't shop there if that isn't what you want to buy.

-MarkM-

I hear you.  But close the exchange because only 1% of it is legit?  Hmm, I guess it's a viable argument.  More than viable actually.  Again, my point is that there will be winners and legitimate newcomers.  Completely shutting the exchange which serves as a platform for 'graduating' to the next level might be overkill.  But then again, if a coin is truly legitimate, it shouldn't need it, right?  But then centralization becomes a concern, I think.  Only one or two exchanges that get to say what coins are exchanged.  Sounds contradictory to the crypto currency movement.  Perhaps this system of 'graduating' to the next level is the issue.  But even a P2P system of exchanging coins won't stop a con-artist from conning.  No easy solution...

Huh? You are listing one of the many years successful cards.

No mention of all the little pieces of plastic whipped up by forgers and scammers with made up new names hawked in back alleys off of times square.

Go print up a whole bunch of clonecards, with new different names, Xcovercard, Winer's Club, Fastercard, etc etc etc and flog them in back alleys and see in 20 or 30 or 50 or whatever years how well they all are doing.

The fact that you can buy the crap in a back alley is not convincing. The fact you can ONLY buy it there is even worse.

You probably don't even know a dozen, maybe even half a dozen, of the crapcards scammers pressed out with backroom plastic-forming kits back in the years when discovercard etc were first launching, so your statistics are almost certainly totally off, based on looking back with 20/20 hindsight.

If we print off 100 different "brands" of made up pretend cards, how many of each are you going to buy into on the chance one of them is the next Diner's Club or Discover Card or whatever?

-MarkM-

In other words, you can buy coins...as long as you buy THESE coins.

Sounds like imperialism reloaded.  There's a balance somewhere in this chaos, and it's not that...

I mean, seriously, what the heck was Discover Card thinking 20 years ago when they entered the credit card business?  How dare they attempt to offer nothing new and yet contend against Visa, Mastercard, and Amex.  (*sarcasm*)  

Last I checked, Discover Card was doing pretty darn good...

Its like you are saying that the fact a bunch of sleazy fences operating out of back alleys accosting people with offers of cheap new watches that look like a Rolex causes people to think those "new brands" are legitimate.

It is crazy to think that the biggest sleazebags among exchanges picking up yet another ripoff of the day "legitimises" that new ripoff of the day.

To the contrary, the fact that the sleazebags love the stuff should be a red flag. "Oh oh, I see this coin is traded by the biggest rippoff artists in the business, maybe it'd be wise to check whether MtGox trades it yet... Wow MtGox doesn't even trade litecoins and namecoins yet, if even those aren't legit its obvious the crap the biggest scammers of all are pushing must be illegitimate..."

I mean really, for gosh sakes, most of the crap is pre-mined and/or instamined from the get-go, both of which are also huge red flags.

Its too bad the legit coins cannot force the scam exchanges to remove them, instead people have to realise that just because the scammers trade bitcoins as well as the latest ripoffs doesn't mean the latest ripoffs must be just as legit as bitcoins.

If you wallow in shit you're unlikely to come out smelling like roses unless you are the shitter / scammer / ripoff-artist looking to dump your garbage...

So far the solution is trivially simple: just don't deal with the scummy "exchanges" that facilitate the scams.

-MarkM-

I already explained my definition of major -- hands down the most active exchange for the vast majority of currencies in question. I understand what you are saying...but it's completely irrelevant at this point. We're inside the altcoin vacuum, here. Moving on...


Because instead of placing buy orders at perceived market value...savvy buyers place orders below market value knowing that autosellers will dump into their buys at certain intervals. The downside to this is that it becomes a chain reaction that can quickly drop the market price -- especially if a particular currency isn't active enough. I've seen buy orders that have been sitting there for weeks that were 10% of market value when they were placed...and because the investors were holding (but not buying) there weren't enough buy orders out there...and the autosells dumped in all the way down to these old, ridiculously low buy orders. Suddenly, that becomes the new market value...and miners begin to abandon the coin to invest their hash power in more profitable currencies. Before you know it...this situation all but completely killed the currency in question. Obviously, with a high enough volume of buyers, this isn't going to happen...but the more currencies that get added the thinner everything is spread and it's been picking off the currencies in the lower tiers for weeks. Buyers aren't going to place orders at 10X the market value -- why would they? Especially when the incoming autotrades are predictable for the most part.

If you don't understand it at this point, I'm not sure how else to explain it. In that case, however, I will say that altcoins may not be the best investment for you. This is pretty basic stuff.


If you fail to see the problem, you're part of the problem. If it's obvious that a dev is creating a coin solely to pump and dump it at first opportunity and disappear...and they're doing the same thing over and over again...it's an issue. The exchanges that are listing these coins are enabling this to continue. Nobody is making me mine or buy these currencies (and I don't) -- you are correct there. However, whether you understand why or not, these currencies are indirectly devaluing all altcoins. Money and/or hash power that would have normally been invested in quality currencies with real devs and a future is instead dumped into the pockets of the bums that have scammed the investors. There is no easy way for the average person to fully educate themselves because, as your responses in this thread clearly indicate, a lot of people doing the educating don't even understand the market. I feel like an exchange that has as much activity as Cryptsy should do more research before adding currencies -- people see a currency hitting the exchange as a sign that it is legitimate. This is clearly not the case -- you know that, and I know that -- however, not everybody does. Money and hash power is already spread pretty thin -- it's time to improve the networks and values of legitimate currencies instead of currencies that will soon be abandoned.


It's simple -- they create a currency that they knew from day 1 they would abandon as soon as they could dump their holdings for a profit. Initially the scam involved a sizable premine...but eventually Cryptsy tightened their requirements and they used different approaches (for example, soft launches followed by them and others in on the scam mining as much as possible. This growing network speed also helped attract new victims.) To take it a step further, there are a number of usernames posting about these currencies and pretending to support them/etc. People are screwed because they are being duped -- the entire thing is a charade with the goal of getting the currency listed on Cryptsy, everybody that's in on it dumps once it's pumped to the agreed upon price, and they all abandon the currency (dev included) and move on to the next scamcoin where they repeat the same process. Lather, rinse, and repeat. Unfortunately there are always enough people roped into the scam that it works...and by listing these currencies on Cryptsy, Cryptsy is effectively enabling the scam.

The problem here is that there is so much misinformation, confusion, and inflammatory banter that it's difficult for people to see the truth. Look at your post -- you're implying that the only way for a coin dev to screw people over is to kidnap them and force them to invest? How is that helpful to anybody reading this and attempting to learn from it?

How in the hell can anybody be against doing what we can to limit dishonesty and deceit in a financial market? I don't understand your motivation for arguing against some common sense ways to improve the integrity of the altcoin market.

Citing Cryptsy seems to be where your problem is.

Cryptsy seems to be basically a junk/crap exchange, it is where you go when you want to offload a bunch of totally useless crapcoins, sucker a bunch of suckers etc.

Look instead at exchanges like Vircurex. If a coin is not on Vircurex yet it is probably because it is a bunch of crap best left to bottom-feeders such as Cryptsy.

It can be argued that even Vircurex has set its standards too low, I am sure some people out there think so, but compared to middens like Cryptsy it is sure as heck trying a lot harder to only list coins that might actually maybe in the long run turn out to have been worth listing.

So basically if you want to go get ripped off or rip other people off go play in the crappy places like Cryptsy that specialise in ripoff-of-the-day, otherwise stick to reputable exchanges and even there do your due diligence carefully and don't "invest" more than you can afford to lose.

-MarkM-

take for example Quark

I find it really interesting because there were people complaining because ha ha they invested in it or they mine it and then everyone was dumping it .

and if you look at the trend there looks like there could have been a Botnet mining and dumping .

well , if you had any faith in Quark as a viable currency , i have to ask you would you see this as a :

Net Negative ?

or

Net Positive ?

i mean i have to laugh how stupid are people, if you have faith in the design and mindless Botnets are mining and auto-dumping , then isn't that a gift to you  ?

I mean then if it isn't;..... doesn't that mean the you are just angry because you had no faith in the design but are angry because someone else beat you to the dump ?

that's just called sour grapes ha ha , not investing.

i think people have a lot to learn .