Shocking: Small amount of chinese miners block 88% of segwit support by services

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: jonald_fyookball on April 23, 2017, 09:57:58 PM

Quote from: pereira4 on April 23, 2017, 12:42:14 PM

https://coin.dance/poli

As of today, 88% wants segwit. EC (BUcoin) has a bigger rejection rate than UASF, which is revealing. As we have seen with LTC, the price rises along with the segwit hashrate (and we'll see an ATH due BTC's inability to get to enjoy segwit, thus blocking LN development efforts, since segwit provides for full capacity LN and other features needed for proper payment channel functionality).

A small amount of miners (how many really? Jihan Wu? and a couple other pools, no more than 5 guys) are blocking hundreds of people involved in BTC services, exchanges and so on.

They also go against node majority.

Segwit is officially held hostage by a tiny amount of miners with a hashrate monopoly, probably state-sponsored. Meanwhile, LTC will eat BTC's lunch as segwit activates.

^ meaningless rhetoric. The miners will decide the longest chain and don't care about your opinion. Go sell your BTC and buy LTC if you love segwit.

I believe it is all going there. The hesitance of the miners to activate Segwit could make developers have interest to develop on Litecoin more. Correct me if I am wrong but Segwit does open up the possibility for Bitcoin or Litecoin to have smart contracts for the network, yes?

AngryDwarf

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Quote from: -ck on April 23, 2017, 06:49:38 PM

Quote from: AngryDwarf on April 23, 2017, 01:10:04 PM

The link you refers to shows 46% explicit support, and 42% prepared / ready.

My service moved from supported to ready; i.e. ready is a HIGHER status for me than support. I am definitely supporting AND ready. While it is distinctly possible that a service may be "ready" without explicitly stating they are supporting segwit, the vast majority have moved to ready as a result of making their service ready because they support it.

Then we are arguing over meaningless stats, since the definition of the stats is not well defined.
If I was a business, I would probably be segwit ready. But that does not mean that I think it is the best solution.

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Quote from: pereira4 on April 23, 2017, 12:42:14 PM

https://coin.dance/poli

As of today, 88% wants segwit. EC (BUcoin) has a bigger rejection rate than UASF, which is revealing. As we have seen with LTC, the price rises along with the segwit hashrate (and we'll see an ATH due BTC's inability to get to enjoy segwit, thus blocking LN development efforts, since segwit provides for full capacity LN and other features needed for proper payment channel functionality).

A small amount of miners (how many really? Jihan Wu? and a couple other pools, no more than 5 guys) are blocking hundreds of people involved in BTC services, exchanges and so on.

They also go against node majority.

Segwit is officially held hostage by a tiny amount of miners with a hashrate monopoly, probably state-sponsored. Meanwhile, LTC will eat BTC's lunch as segwit activates.

^ meaningless rhetoric. The miners will decide the longest chain and don't care about your opinion. Go sell your BTC and buy LTC if you love segwit.

Wind_FURY

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Quote from: pereira4 on April 23, 2017, 12:42:14 PM

https://coin.dance/poli

As of today, 88% wants segwit. EC (BUcoin) has a bigger rejection rate than UASF, which is revealing. As we have seen with LTC, the price rises along with the segwit hashrate (and we'll see an ATH due BTC's inability to get to enjoy segwit, thus blocking LN development efforts, since segwit provides for full capacity LN and other features needed for proper payment channel functionality).

A small amount of miners (how many really? Jihan Wu? and a couple other pools, no more than 5 guys) are blocking hundreds of people involved in BTC services, exchanges and so on.

They also go against node majority.

Segwit is officially held hostage by a tiny amount of miners with a hashrate monopoly, probably state-sponsored. Meanwhile, LTC will eat BTC's lunch as segwit activates.

Then maybe that is the real purpose of Jihan Wu and his allies. They want to maintain the same existing conditions in Bitcoin because it is at a advantage to them while they want to change things up in Litecoin because there might be a profit motive for them to do it. This shows the real power the Chinese miners have.

-ck

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Ruu \o/

Quote from: AngryDwarf on April 23, 2017, 01:10:04 PM

The link you refers to shows 46% explicit support, and 42% prepared / ready.

My service moved from supported to ready; i.e. ready is a HIGHER status for me than support. I am definitely supporting AND ready. While it is distinctly possible that a service may be "ready" without explicitly stating they are supporting segwit, the vast majority have moved to ready as a result of making their service ready because they support it.

XbladeX

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Quote from: BillyBobZorton on April 23, 2017, 04:35:26 PM

***
Meanwhile, LTC is rising to new all time highs as all lightning networks development will move there. Anyone not holding LTC right now is an idiot.

This all situation is so broken Jihan now have like 30% of LTC mining and eating profits from LTC segwit same time he with Asicboost earns 20x more than other BTC miners so for him is better to keep status quo.
Situation with patent of field is unacceptable i don't see problem with "exploit" when it won't hold development i bet Satosi didn't wrote about such situation on whitepaper.
What is more he even was not thinking that one single entity will have such influence and will stop progress to keep patented edge. Many ideal views on BTC was corrected by hard life examples. 1st BTC have no block limit then people started spamming so in defense they added limit. Now we have asicboost so in defense we have to make some POW change to destroy that patented edge.
In history BTC was making HF to defend itself.

BillyBobZorton

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Quote from: AngryDwarf on April 23, 2017, 01:10:04 PM

Selective use of statistics. The link you refers to shows 46% explicit support, and 42% prepared / ready. That still means less than half the businesses they have polled explicitly support it. Business would be stupid not to be prepared or ready for it, especially since some are hell bent on trying to force it through.
Applying their 'economic weighting' shows 23% explicit support and a further 68% prepared / ready for a total of 91%.

Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?

The poll done by 21 suggest that around 75% of big players in the space want segwit and the 70.5% reject Buggy Unlimited explicitly:

https://medium.com/@21/using-21-to-survey-blockchain-personalities-on-the-bitcoin-hard-fork-1953c9bcb8ed

So let's not circlejerk about some %, the thing is clear: most reject EC, not even neutral. Segwit has more support by nodes and big actors in the field. Only like 3 people running big mining pools don't want it, which means we either convince them, or we will see some big problems to get segwit since we'll have to UASF and that is not an easy road.

Meanwhile, LTC is rising to new all time highs as all lightning networks development will move there. Anyone not holding LTC right now is an idiot.

d.kevin29

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Quote from: lionheart78 on April 23, 2017, 01:48:16 PM

Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: lionheart78 on April 23, 2017, 01:17:30 PM

Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:12:31 PM

Quote from: d.kevin29 on April 23, 2017, 01:09:55 PM

Who owns the hashpower rules.

Exactly how Bitcoin was designed to be. Bitcoin is a Proof-of-work coin. This is all in the whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

Oh well one miner can have 10% of hashpower while 100 miners can have 2% of the hashpower, the way you are saying, Bitcoin is not decentralized after all. So Satoshi is just faking about decentralization since the group who owns the highest hashrate has power towards Bitcoin's next movement? If that so we are just dreaming about Bitcoin as decentralized p2p currency.

Change the whitepaper and make a new coin if you don't like how Bitcoin works.

Why create another coin when there is already some coins existing in the market that offers better feature than Bitcoin Tongue

. I would rather save the effort and follow that better coin. Besides I am not a programmer to create one lol.

New coins will never be perfect. Even if a new coin comes up, others will come with new ideas and new coins with more features will show up. You cannot stop that. It's going to keep happening.

ImHash

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Most of the services and exchanges are ready or want SegWit there are however some key exchanging services undecided or with no instance on any available proposals.
If miners want bigger blocks and don't care about 1GB extra data daily, if they can maintain current node count after 6 months past from mining blocks of 2MB/4MB/8MB if they can guarantee fast confirmations and low fees and a stable network functioning without any problem then why not?

But even they know something is not right with BU.

lionheart78

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Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:24:17 PM

Quote from: lionheart78 on April 23, 2017, 01:17:30 PM

Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:12:31 PM

Quote from: d.kevin29 on April 23, 2017, 01:09:55 PM

Who owns the hashpower rules.

Exactly how Bitcoin was designed to be. Bitcoin is a Proof-of-work coin. This is all in the whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

Oh well one miner can have 10% of hashpower while 100 miners can have 2% of the hashpower, the way you are saying, Bitcoin is not decentralized after all. So Satoshi is just faking about decentralization since the group who owns the highest hashrate has power towards Bitcoin's next movement? If that so we are just dreaming about Bitcoin as decentralized p2p currency.

Change the whitepaper and make a new coin if you don't like how Bitcoin works.

Why create another coin when there is already some coins existing in the market that offers better feature than Bitcoin Tongue

. I would rather save the effort and follow that better coin. Besides I am not a programmer to create one lol.

lurker10

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Quote from: AngryDwarf on April 23, 2017, 01:29:50 PM

Follow the link. The OP is talking about businesses polled not hashpower. Even then the OP has managed to turn a minority explicit business support argument by including business ready statistics in order to play the victim card against the evil miners.

Businesses can be sybil'ed, it makes no sense to poll them.
Hashpower cannot be sybil'ed, that is why Satoshi Nakamoto chose hashpower to decide network consensus.

AngryDwarf

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Follow the link. The OP is talking about businesses polled not hashpower. Even then the OP has managed to turn a minority explicit business support argument by including business ready statistics in order to play the victim card against the evil miners.

lurker10

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Quote from: lionheart78 on April 23, 2017, 01:17:30 PM

Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:12:31 PM

Quote from: d.kevin29 on April 23, 2017, 01:09:55 PM

Who owns the hashpower rules.

Exactly how Bitcoin was designed to be. Bitcoin is a Proof-of-work coin. This is all in the whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

Oh well one miner can have 10% of hashpower while 100 miners can have 2% of the hashpower, the way you are saying, Bitcoin is not decentralized after all. So Satoshi is just faking about decentralization since the group who owns the highest hashrate has power towards Bitcoin's next movement? If that so we are just dreaming about Bitcoin as decentralized p2p currency.

Change the whitepaper and make a new coin if you don't like how Bitcoin works.

lionheart78

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Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:12:31 PM

Quote from: d.kevin29 on April 23, 2017, 01:09:55 PM

Who owns the hashpower rules.

Exactly how Bitcoin was designed to be. Bitcoin is a Proof-of-work coin. This is all in the whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

Oh well one miner can have 10% of hashpower while 100 miners can have 2% of the hashpower, the way you are saying, Bitcoin is not decentralized after all. So Satoshi is just faking about decentralization since the group who owns the highest hashrate has power towards Bitcoin's next movement? If that so we are just dreaming about Bitcoin as decentralized p2p currency.

Yakamoto

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I'm not going to blindly agree with this. There isn't an 88% support for segwit that's being blocked by just a few miners, maybe in terms of actual individuals there are only 12% of miners blocking the remaining 88% of individual miners, but the fact of the matter is they simply aren't putting forth enough hashing power to make it mean all that much. If they had more hashing power, and they could if they wanted to get more invested, then it might be more of an issue. But right now I can't say that Segwit is anywhere close to being this 88% figure.

lurker10

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Quote from: d.kevin29 on April 23, 2017, 01:09:55 PM

Who owns the hashpower rules.

Exactly how Bitcoin was designed to be. Bitcoin is a Proof-of-work coin. This is all in the whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto.

AngryDwarf

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Selective use of statistics. The link you refers to shows 46% explicit support, and 42% prepared / ready. That still means less than half the businesses they have polled explicitly support it. Business would be stupid not to be prepared or ready for it, especially since some are hell bent on trying to force it through.
Applying their 'economic weighting' shows 23% explicit support and a further 68% prepared / ready for a total of 91%.

Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?

d.kevin29

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Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 01:03:42 PM

Quote from: gmaxwell on April 23, 2017, 12:59:11 PM

Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 12:45:20 PM

34% of miners support Segwit

That is 34% of hashpower, it may well be 99% of miners. That is also signaling rather than support-- there are miners that support segwit who are not signaling it due to pressure or payments from others.

He said 88% of miners support segwit, not 88% of hashpower. I corrected the number which was way off.

There are also miners who do not signal BU+Classic due to pressure and DDoS threats from others. It works both ways.

It doesn't really matter. Who owns the power rules. If you'd promote a product in your mini-market together with 50 other mini-markets in your city and Walmart comes and says the product you're promoting is bad, most people will prefer Walmart's opinion over your mini-markets' ones. Not sure if it's the perfect example though.

Look at what happened a few days ago when Jihan wanted to block LTC SegWit. Could he do it? Yes, indeed, because of the hashing power he owns.

A man with $1.000.000 surely has some power and matters way more than a guy with $1.000.

In the end, this will be the decision of the whales. Just like it is when it comes to most things around us, including presidential elections and all that other stuff..

Qartada

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Even for services you're wrong. Not that I particularly support any other solution, but you're just showing us the statistics and lying about what's literally right in front of our faces.

It says that 46% support SegWit. The rest that you've included for some reason say that they're ready for SegWit - completely different thing.

lurker10

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Quote from: gmaxwell on April 23, 2017, 12:59:11 PM

Quote from: lurker10 on April 23, 2017, 12:45:20 PM

34% of miners support Segwit

That is 34% of hashpower, it may well be 99% of miners. That is also signaling rather than support-- there are miners that support segwit who are not signaling it due to pressure or payments from others.

He said 88% of miners support segwit, not 88% of hashpower. I corrected the number which was way off.

There are also miners who do not signal BU+Classic due to pressure and DDoS threats from others. It works both ways.

Topic: Shocking: Small amount of chinese miners block 88% of segwit support by services (Read 933 times)