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Topic: Should bitcoin lower the transaction fee? (Read 6366 times)

legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
March 05, 2013, 12:25:17 AM
#43
..The max block size should be smaller to have actual price competion for block space, than we won't need to worry about setting fee rates...

Check out this chart of daily transaction fees:

https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees-usd?showDataPoints=false×pan=&show_header=true&daysAverageString=7&scale=0&address=

Do we really need to force any more price competition right now? Why not let this level out and then decide whether fees are high enough?
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 501
Well we give such large blocks to miners, they might as well fill them with small paying transactions. It is better than leaving them mostly empty.

The max block size should be smaller to have actual price competion for block space, than we won't need to worry about setting fee rates.

As a miner why not just accept every nonzero since you don't lose anything by adding them.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
February 26, 2013, 11:06:35 AM
#41
One possible solution would be to simply make any transaction with an output value less than the minimum fee non-standard, so that those transactions won't be relayed or mined by miners. After all, if the value is less than the minimum fee, there isn't any rational reason to spend the output. (the fee is zero with sufficient priority mind you, but zero-fee tx's probably won't get mined forever)
A very good idea! I hope this gets implemented and used by the major mining pools.

Well then that would stop/damage the use/development of 'coloured coins'.
legendary
Activity: 1762
Merit: 1011
February 23, 2013, 06:08:01 PM
#40
This is why losing SatoshiDICE bets are so harmful to the system.  You get back 0.00000001 or so on a losing bet.  With such high transaction volumes, SatoshiDICE is handing out lots of difficult-to-spend dust spam.

I'd say it's the opposite of harmful. If one gambling website can harm Bitcoin, there is a problem with the system that needs addressed.

I'm not necessarily arguing with you, but it's not just "one gambling website". It's one gambling website making use of a particular flexibility in bitcoin, which can have legitimate future purposes, for a flawed purpose -- using a micro-transaction for every lost bet as a confirmation message of sorts. Using micro-transactions as confirmation or notification messages, if they blow up the size of the blockchain, is a particular category of problem, regardless of whether it's a gambling website or any other sort of business. Like others have said, discouraging micro-transactions with some sort of fee until those decimal places are legitimately needed sounds like the practical sort of solution. Hopefully it just won't continue to be so arbitrarily set or centralized.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
February 23, 2013, 12:45:53 AM
#39
In the end, who cares what the values of the outputs are. The only thing that matters is the space transactions take up in the block chain, and if fees are based upon that, then this nonsense resolves itself.

A more relevant measure than space in the block chain is the size of the list of unspent transaction outputs ("UTXO", list of spendable bitcoins).  It keeps growing and growing, with near-zero-value outputs.

RE "who cares what the values are"  One follows from the other.

If your purchases are typically 4-5 decimal places at most, and the remainder has sub-$0.001 value, the remainder is simply less likely to be swept up and spent... thereby taking up space in the block chain without being prunable.

This is why losing SatoshiDICE bets are so harmful to the system.  You get back 0.00000001 or so on a losing bet.  With such high transaction volumes, SatoshiDICE is handing out lots of difficult-to-spend dust spam.



This is a very important point.
so (open question). has anyone asked SatoshiDICE whether they can change their model to internalize their transactions?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
February 22, 2013, 11:11:08 PM
#38

Well, the first one paid 0.018 in fees for the privilege (almost $0.60) and the second one was about the same.

In the end, who cares what the values of the outputs are. The only thing that matters is the space transactions take up in the block chain, and if fees are based upon that, then this nonsense resolves itself.

This person spent a good portion of the bitcoins that make up the transactions in fees.

$0.6 is really cheap to spam thousands of full nodes, forcing them to store garbage forever.

The data storage is actually the easy part.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
February 22, 2013, 11:01:38 PM
#37

Well, the first one paid 0.018 in fees for the privilege (almost $0.60) and the second one was about the same.

In the end, who cares what the values of the outputs are. The only thing that matters is the space transactions take up in the block chain, and if fees are based upon that, then this nonsense resolves itself.

This person spent a good portion of the bitcoins that make up the transactions in fees.

$0.6 is really cheap to spam thousands of full nodes, forcing them to store garbage forever.
full member
Activity: 192
Merit: 100
February 22, 2013, 06:25:49 PM
#36
One possible solution would be to simply make any transaction with an output value less than the minimum fee non-standard, so that those transactions won't be relayed or mined by miners. After all, if the value is less than the minimum fee, there isn't any rational reason to spend the output. (the fee is zero with sufficient priority mind you, but zero-fee tx's probably won't get mined forever)
A very good idea! I hope this gets implemented and used by the major mining pools.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
February 22, 2013, 04:44:28 PM
#35
No-one is saying there isn't a problem with the system that doesn't need to be addressed. We absolutely do need a way to somehow discourage the creation of small-value outputs, and the fact that we don't yet is a flaw in Bitcoin.


Actually, we do have such a system.  It's the priority score system.  Been there for some time, and the effects of Satoshi Dice would be far worse in it's absence.

Most 0.00000001 outputs pay a fee, which exempts them from the priority system.  Priority is used for calculating how to fill the ~27k free transaction area, in the absence of a fee bidding for the non-free block space.

legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
February 22, 2013, 04:29:46 PM
#34
This is why losing SatoshiDICE bets are so harmful to the system.  You get back 0.00000001 or so on a losing bet.  With such high transaction volumes, SatoshiDICE is handing out lots of difficult-to-spend dust spam.

I'd say it's the opposite of harmful. If one gambling website can harm Bitcoin, there is a problem with the system that needs addressed.

No-one is saying there isn't a problem with the system that doesn't need to be addressed. We absolutely do need a way to somehow discourage the creation of small-value outputs, and the fact that we don't yet is a flaw in Bitcoin.


Actually, we do have such a system.  It's the priority score system.  Been there for some time, and the effects of Satoshi Dice would be far worse in it's absence.

Quote

One possible solution would be to simply make any transaction with an output value less than the minimum fee non-standard, so that those transactions won't be relayed or mined by miners. After all, if the value is less than the minimum fee, there isn't any rational reason to spend the output. (the fee is zero with sufficient priority mind you, but zero-fee tx's probably won't get mined forever)


We have this rule, also.  Or rather one like it as part of the priority system.

Quote
The bigger problem is that it's only the size of blocks that is the limited resource - the incentive structure should make transactions that reduce the UTXO set cheaper, but actually coming up with rules that effectively do that without causing other problems is hard.

Actually, not hard, and being done.  The many-outputs-transaction type is one such example, as it permits anyone that desires to pay a lot of different people at once to do it in a single transaction, which does reduce netowrk resource usage on a per-payee metric.  This one does require a fee bsed upon it's total bytesize, but it's demontratablely lower than if one had to pay a minimum transaction fee for a set of transactions to pay to the same number of output addresses.  Obviously, we won't really see this kind of thing being used much until there is a real market to get into blocks; but once we do sttart seeing them, they could be useful for weekly payrolls or monthly bill payment clients (like paying for your rent, heat, water, etc in one motion rather than a different transaction for each payee)
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1152
February 22, 2013, 03:18:56 PM
#33
This is why losing SatoshiDICE bets are so harmful to the system.  You get back 0.00000001 or so on a losing bet.  With such high transaction volumes, SatoshiDICE is handing out lots of difficult-to-spend dust spam.

I'd say it's the opposite of harmful. If one gambling website can harm Bitcoin, there is a problem with the system that needs addressed.

No-one is saying there isn't a problem with the system that doesn't need to be addressed. We absolutely do need a way to somehow discourage the creation of small-value outputs, and the fact that we don't yet is a flaw in Bitcoin.

One possible solution would be to simply make any transaction with an output value less than the minimum fee non-standard, so that those transactions won't be relayed or mined by miners. After all, if the value is less than the minimum fee, there isn't any rational reason to spend the output. (the fee is zero with sufficient priority mind you, but zero-fee tx's probably won't get mined forever)

The bigger problem is that it's only the size of blocks that is the limited resource - the incentive structure should make transactions that reduce the UTXO set cheaper, but actually coming up with rules that effectively do that without causing other problems is hard.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
February 22, 2013, 02:24:14 PM
#32
In the end, who cares what the values of the outputs are. The only thing that matters is the space transactions take up in the block chain, and if fees are based upon that, then this nonsense resolves itself.

A more relevant measure than space in the block chain is the size of the list of unspent transaction outputs ("UTXO", list of spendable bitcoins).  It keeps growing and growing, with near-zero-value outputs.

RE "who cares what the values are"  One follows from the other.

If your purchases are typically 4-5 decimal places at most, and the remainder has sub-$0.001 value, the remainder is simply less likely to be swept up and spent... thereby taking up space in the block chain without being prunable.

This is why losing SatoshiDICE bets are so harmful to the system.  You get back 0.00000001 or so on a losing bet.  With such high transaction volumes, SatoshiDICE is handing out lots of difficult-to-spend dust spam.

hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 501
February 22, 2013, 02:06:46 PM
#31

Well, the first one paid 0.018 in fees for the privilege (almost $0.60) and the second one was about the same.

In the end, who cares what the values of the outputs are. The only thing that matters is the space transactions take up in the block chain, and if fees are based upon that, then this nonsense resolves itself.

This person spent a good portion of the bitcoins that make up the transactions in fees.
legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
February 17, 2013, 07:56:53 AM
#30
We should charge a high fee (e.g. 0.005) for each sub uBTC (0.000001) output. Transactions like this are just pollution:

https://blockchain.info/tx/b0c4969efaa40a98b2c20abef0822248d2080676dd694e93dac2a8d942ecf02d
https://blockchain.info/tx/b15b80a6d2b6ddf38c6d43d124dcd998abe4fef85bbd42e3fcbc684bbbb0f69e
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1036
February 14, 2013, 09:23:42 PM
#29
Good work noob for a random necro, and the above commenter congratulating something that is already completed in Bitcoin.

What is further described above doesn't make much sense.

A full Bitcoin client knows about every pending transaction on the network, and knows what transactions would be included if it were to presently mine a block using standard Bitcoin rules. It would be very easy to calculate an appropriate optional fee to ensure likely placement in the next block.
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 501
February 13, 2013, 01:41:08 PM
#28
Before I left for vacation, I submitted a pull request that makes the default policy for miners "more fees == more likely to get into a block."  That will be in the 0.7 release (the policy before was mostly "higher priority == more likely to get into a block"), and I've been encouraging the big mining pool operators to implement something similar if they have their own transaction-selection code.

When I get back from vacation I plan on writing code to watch the transactions that do or do not make it into blocks to derive an estimate of the average miners' fee policy, and use that to recommend a reasonable fee to the user.

Those changes will let fees float naturally-- users and miners will form a market and fees will rise or fall based on what users are willing to pay and what miners are willing to accept. I don't like the arbitrary, centralized setting of fees that we've had up until now.


That is great to hear, the set fee seems way too arbitrary.

I was thinking a good way to calculate it is to take the minimum fee per KB of the last 10 blocks. If you want to get your transaction accepted by 20% of the mined blocks, you just need to beat the minimum of 2 of the last 10 blocks. Your client won't need to be totally up to date, and the 10 most recently known blocks should be good enough.

Admittedly this is rather simplistic, but it is more useful than a set number. It might also be meaningful to factor in ignored transactions as that would be helpful in the calculation. If the maximum ignored transaction had .0005 as the fee, and the minimum accepted fee was 0.001, then you know the breaking point was somewhere in between. This would require looking at all transactions passing through a node for both validity storing the fees per kb in a db, so this might be not worth the effort.

This all gets more complicated if you try to use coin age or include other factors in the calculation, but I don't see why anything else would be useful. When you create a transaction you are paying for space in the blockchain, and that space is measured in bytes.
full member
Activity: 150
Merit: 100
February 13, 2013, 12:51:21 PM
#27
I was expecting Gavin's suggestion to eventually be implemented by 3rd party sites like bitcoincharts/miners/blockchain as the block size limit is reached. Well, if it's in the reference client, all the better. Im really for a market determined floating fee. All we got to figure out is how to float the block size limit.

Even though banks in many countries offer free local funds transfers, it is not really "free". To have an account, you either have to pay a yearly charge or maintain a large enough balance to avoid any account fees, a balance which is always depreciating in real terms as the bank multiplies it via Fractional Reserve Banking to make fortunes off your money while allowing you to save a few cents in transaction costs.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
February 12, 2013, 10:39:07 AM
#26
We should lower fee for normal transactions but increase fee for spams like Satoshi Dice

There is no mandatory fee for normal transactions.  If the network requires a fee it is because your transaction looks "spammy" (low priority).

Quote
A transaction will be sent without fees if these conditions are met:
It is smaller than 10 thousand bytes.
All outputs are 0.01 BTC or larger.
Its priority is large enough (see the Technical Info section below)

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Transaction_fees

legendary
Activity: 1792
Merit: 1111
February 12, 2013, 08:11:45 AM
#25
We should lower fee for normal transactions but increase fee for spams like Satoshi Dice
full member
Activity: 127
Merit: 100
February 12, 2013, 12:47:53 AM
#24
Still please point out to me where online you can spend $1 and pay less than 5 cents in fees?   Even at 5 cents per transaction bitcoin is cheaper than any digital payment platform on the planet.

Bank transactions in Europe (SEPA System) depend on your contract with your bank but are typically free in most EU countries. You also have many banks that offer accounts without base fee as well. So transactions here are 100% free.
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