Should I use mixers? | Bitcointalksearch.org

shield132

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on December 02, 2020, 02:51:53 PM

So basically you are going:

Exchange -> Address A -> Address B -> Mixer -> Address C

It's difficult for anyone to say for sure, but as I said in my above comment, if an exchange will block your account if you mix your coins immediately after withdrawal, then I can't imagine that a single extra hop is going to make any difference to that, especially if you are moving all the coins in one without any change.

Apologize for confusing example.
What I want to say is following: Let's imagine I have dynamic addresses (all of them). Received money from an exchange to wallet A, then sent from wallet A to wallet B, from wallet b - to mixer. From mixer I sent it to my main wallet but what I do is that I split chips and sometimes send 0.3 btc, sometimes 0.7 btc. I collect bitcoins and send different stakes in order to get rid of any suspicion.
I received money on A and sent to B. I'll claim that wallet A is my primary address and I have an unpaid loan of a person that uses wallet B and it's not my job what he does with walelt B.

Also, another reason why that rule is dumb is that what if I want to send btc to my friend and he sends me mixer address? Is it my fault? How should I know whether address belongs mixer or not? Dumb rule!

Anti-money laundering politics is the worst politics ever, worse by the logic behind it. Rich people launder without any resistance Cheesy

It's very hilarious, it's a joke.

pugman

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 27, 2020, 07:06:45 PM

Yes, no, maybe. These centralized exchanges are neither open nor honest about how they reach the decision to lock an account, about what triggers their automatic algorithms, about how far forward or backwards they trace withdrawals or deposits, and so on. They obviously can't trace every withdrawal ad infinitum, but who knows how many transactions they do trace, and this number will vary between exchanges.

I would expect that a single hop between exchange and mixer, especially if you are just making one-input-one-output transactions, isn't going to make much if any difference to the likelihood of your account being locked. Probably best to find other people who are using the same exchange you are and ask their experiences.

Yeah its extremely annoying that us users can't do anything about "corporate exchanges", but guess one has to live by "It is what it is" meme.

Anyways, thanks for your input on this, I am a teeny bit more aware of how to get things going from now, and a very interesting conversation overall, thanks mate. Cheesy

Really hope better decentralized exchanges come by, a decentralized version of binance would be really nice, but welp, one can dream.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: shield132 on December 01, 2020, 03:03:02 PM

What happens if I use two wallet. My main wallet is wallet A but I withdraw money from an exchange to wallet B without any 3rd parties but once I receive money on wallet B, I send it to wallet A that has changeable address too. In case I want super extra security, I send money from wallet A to another new primary address, call it wallet "Main A" and in this transaction, I use mixer.

So basically you are going:

Exchange -> Address A -> Address B -> Mixer -> Address C

It's difficult for anyone to say for sure, but as I said in my above comment, if an exchange will block your account if you mix your coins immediately after withdrawal, then I can't imagine that a single extra hop is going to make any difference to that, especially if you are moving all the coins in one without any change.

Quote from: shield132 on December 01, 2020, 03:03:02 PM

Chipmixer gives us the possibility to have chips with different stakes and as far as I know, you can keep them as long as you wish (not right? Then correct me).

This is correct. You can also combine and coins you have left on ChipMixer with future deposits to further obfuscate your withdrawals.

Quote from: shield132 on December 01, 2020, 03:03:02 PM

That's why I ask, how do you deal with this problem?

I deal with this problem by not using centralized exchanges. You can't have your coins seized if they never leave your control.

ChipMixer

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Quote from: magneto on November 30, 2020, 03:54:22 PM

Since CM (...) offer their services for free

It is pay-what-you-want.

Quote from: magneto on November 30, 2020, 03:54:22 PM

Check up on your particular exchange first. Do they have a historical record of suspending accounts that are suspected of using mixed coins? If yes, then consider whether or not you value privacy or the convenience of the exchange more.

Reasons to block are many. Morality, gambling, country of origin. If exchange blocks for any reason - consider changing exchange.

shield132

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Quote from: magneto on November 30, 2020, 03:54:22 PM

Quote from: Stedsm on November 15, 2020, 05:13:46 PM

I hope everyone here knows what mixing services are, and for those who don't:

BTC mixers work as a medium, a medium that works like an escrow, gives you back your own coins but on your desired addresses and that too, from different places so for you to become non-traceable at your end. Now, these mixers don't know where these coins will be going to, so it's only you who knows about your coins, your addresses and your transactions.

So, what's the reason behind this thread?

Actually, most exchanges are reluctant to providing their users the authority of using mixers while depositing on their platform and I have heard so many news about exchanges stopping and freezing the account and some didn't even release the account as of today. I'm a privacy conscious person and would like to ask you whether I should still use mixers when depositing on an exchange or not.

I'd go through a checklist to ensure that you are making the optimal decision.

Check up on your particular exchange first. Do they have a historical record of suspending accounts that are suspected of using mixed coins? If yes, then consider whether or not you value privacy or the convenience of the exchange more. There is a real chance that you will never be able to use your account there again if you do get suspended. Coinbase comes to mind as one particular culprit - they love to suspend accounts on every possible suspicion.

If there is no historical record of this type of suspensions, mixers are certainly warranted to protect your privacy. Since CM and others offer their services for free anyway, it's worth using it. Just make sure that you still keep a record of all deposits and transactions for tax purposes.

What happens if I use two wallet. My main wallet is wallet A but I withdraw money from an exchange to wallet B without any 3rd parties but once I receive money on wallet B, I send it to wallet A that has changeable address too. In case I want super extra security, I send money from wallet A to another new primary address, call it wallet "Main A" and in this transaction, I use mixer. Chipmixer gives us the possibility to have chips with different stakes and as far as I know, you can keep them as long as you wish (not right? Then correct me). And then if I receive 1 bitcoin on mixer, I 'll divide it and sometimes send 0.4 btc, or 0.375.
I ask this because as I see some exchanges block addresses that use mixers, personally I have never had such issue with the mixers that I use. That's why I ask, how do you deal with this problem?

magneto

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Quote from: Stedsm on November 15, 2020, 05:13:46 PM

I hope everyone here knows what mixing services are, and for those who don't:

BTC mixers work as a medium, a medium that works like an escrow, gives you back your own coins but on your desired addresses and that too, from different places so for you to become non-traceable at your end. Now, these mixers don't know where these coins will be going to, so it's only you who knows about your coins, your addresses and your transactions.

So, what's the reason behind this thread?

Actually, most exchanges are reluctant to providing their users the authority of using mixers while depositing on their platform and I have heard so many news about exchanges stopping and freezing the account and some didn't even release the account as of today. I'm a privacy conscious person and would like to ask you whether I should still use mixers when depositing on an exchange or not.

I'd go through a checklist to ensure that you are making the optimal decision.

Check up on your particular exchange first. Do they have a historical record of suspending accounts that are suspected of using mixed coins? If yes, then consider whether or not you value privacy or the convenience of the exchange more. There is a real chance that you will never be able to use your account there again if you do get suspended. Coinbase comes to mind as one particular culprit - they love to suspend accounts on every possible suspicion.

If there is no historical record of this type of suspensions, mixers are certainly warranted to protect your privacy. Since CM and others offer their services for free anyway, it's worth using it. Just make sure that you still keep a record of all deposits and transactions for tax purposes.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: pugman on November 27, 2020, 05:45:58 PM

On another note, if I withdraw money from these regulated/centralized exchanges, deposit them into a random wallet, then send those funds through a mixer and deposit them into my real wallet, then my account shouldn't be banned. Right? RIGHT?

Yes, no, maybe. These centralized exchanges are neither open nor honest about how they reach the decision to lock an account, about what triggers their automatic algorithms, about how far forward or backwards they trace withdrawals or deposits, and so on. They obviously can't trace every withdrawal ad infinitum, but who knows how many transactions they do trace, and this number will vary between exchanges.

I would expect that a single hop between exchange and mixer, especially if you are just making one-input-one-output transactions, isn't going to make much if any difference to the likelihood of your account being locked. Probably best to find other people who are using the same exchange you are and ask their experiences.

pugman

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on November 24, 2020, 11:46:16 PM

Quote from: pugman on November 23, 2020, 04:13:50 PM

Also, does binance prohibit its users from using mixers and such??

we need to make a distinction between binance.com and its more tightly regulated fiat exchanges. there was a highly publicized case in late 2019 where a binance.sg (singapore) user had his account frozen for sending coins to wasabi wallet and engaging in coinjoins. in response to all the drama, CZ published a blog. if you read between the lines, he is saying binance.com is unregulated and as such, doesn't engage in the same practices:

Quote from: pugman on November 23, 2020, 04:13:50 PM

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

in terms of liquidity, it's definitely not like LBC was back in the days, but i've had nothing but good experiences on localcryptos. it's the only place i've been able to find p2p cash trades for the last year or so.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 24, 2020, 07:57:14 AM

Quote from: pugman on November 23, 2020, 04:13:50 PM

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

Depends what criteria you are judging it by. If you judge it by how quick it is to make a trade on a centralized exchange such as Binance, then no DEX will ever be better. However, I do like LocalCryptos and would certainly call it a good DEX. They have a nice escrow system in place, which rather than using multi-sig uses a smart-contract like script which allows parties to share secret codes which each other offline or online to be able to sign the release transaction. You can read more about it here: https://blog.localcryptos.com/how-bitcoin-escrow-works/. It has end to end encrypted messaging by default. It's not quite as good as Bisq from a privacy point of view for obvious reasons, but it is still a good exchange.

Thank you both, its exactly what I wanted to hear. I am looking forward to using LocalCryptos for reals for reals.

On another note, if I withdraw money from these regulated/centralized exchanges, deposit them into a random wallet, then send those funds through a mixer and deposit them into my real wallet, then my account shouldn't be banned. Right? RIGHT? I don't want my account blocked again Cry

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 25, 2020, 04:55:37 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on November 24, 2020, 11:46:16 PM

if you look in binance.com's terms, they don't mention mixers or coinjoins. i'm not aware of any issues there yet.

Do other centralized exchanges, or even the "regulated" arms of Binance, specifically mention mixers or coinjoins in their terms?

gemini does define these activities in their user agreement as "conduct violations":

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 25, 2020, 04:55:37 AM

You have highlighted the main issue with using "non-regulated" centralized exchanges: Things can change, and when they do, they often do without warning. Any country in the world could suddenly decide to start clamping down on all exchanges, and the exchanges would respond by either refusing access/locking accounts/freezing coins, or demanding KYC, and give the user no warning whatsoever.

binance has gotten by for years by constantly jumping jurisdictions (china, japan, hong kong, malta, the seychelles, the caymans, etc) and operating very opaquely, but i do wonder how long the game of cat and mouse can continue. there are only so many tax and money laundering havens in the world.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on November 24, 2020, 11:46:16 PM

if you look in binance.com's terms, they don't mention mixers or coinjoins. i'm not aware of any issues there yet.

Do other centralized exchanges, or even the "regulated" arms of Binance, specifically mention mixers or coinjoins in their terms?

You have highlighted the main issue with using "non-regulated" centralized exchanges: Things can change, and when they do, they often do without warning. Any country in the world could suddenly decide to start clamping down on all exchanges, and the exchanges would respond by either refusing access/locking accounts/freezing coins, or demanding KYC, and give the user no warning whatsoever. This has happened many times before and will happen many times again. Whenever you use any centralized exchange, even ones advertised as no KYC, you take a risk with both your coins and your personal info.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: pugman on November 23, 2020, 04:13:50 PM

Also, does binance prohibit its users from using mixers and such??

we need to make a distinction between binance.com and its more tightly regulated fiat exchanges. there was a highly publicized case in late 2019 where a binance.sg (singapore) user had his account frozen for sending coins to wasabi wallet and engaging in coinjoins. in response to all the drama, CZ published a blog. if you read between the lines, he is saying binance.com is unregulated and as such, doesn't engage in the same practices:

Quote from: pugman on November 23, 2020, 04:13:50 PM

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

in terms of liquidity, it's definitely not like LBC was back in the days, but i've had nothing but good experiences on localcryptos. it's the only place i've been able to find p2p cash trades for the last year or so.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: pugman on November 23, 2020, 04:13:50 PM

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

Depends what criteria you are judging it by. If you judge it by how quick it is to make a trade on a centralized exchange such as Binance, then no DEX will ever be better. However, I do like LocalCryptos and would certainly call it a good DEX. They have a nice escrow system in place, which rather than using multi-sig uses a smart-contract like script which allows parties to share secret codes which each other offline or online to be able to sign the release transaction. You can read more about it here: https://blog.localcryptos.com/how-bitcoin-escrow-works/. It has end to end encrypted messaging by default. It's not quite as good as Bisq from a privacy point of view for obvious reasons, but it is still a good exchange.

pugman

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 21, 2020, 12:33:07 PM

Quote from: pugman on November 21, 2020, 12:23:44 PM

I am looking for exchanges that won't block my account/amount if I withdraw or deposit the funds using a mixer.

That makes perfect sense. The safest option is to use decentralized, peer to peer exchanges in which the only place you deposit bitcoin to is a multisig escrow address where you share the keys with the party you are trading with. That way, there is no way to freeze your coins if the exchange doesn't like your use of mixers (although true decentralized exchanges obviously don't care what you do with your coins, as it should be).

For trading between fiat and bitcoin or a select few major altcoins, then I would suggest Bisq, Hodl Hodl, or LocalCryptos.

I don't trade shitcoins, so I can't offer a suggestion for a good DEX for them. Be aware that many places which advertise themselves as a DEX are nothing of the sort, though, and simply use it as a marketing tactic.

I have recommended LocalCryptos to multiple people because I know its P2P, but is it actually actually good?

Is there at least a decent enough shitcoin hosting decentralized exchange yet?

Also, does binance prohibit its users from using mixers and such??

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: pugman on November 21, 2020, 12:23:44 PM

I am looking for exchanges that won't block my account/amount if I withdraw or deposit the funds using a mixer.

That makes perfect sense. The safest option is to use decentralized, peer to peer exchanges in which the only place you deposit bitcoin to is a multisig escrow address where you share the keys with the party you are trading with. That way, there is no way to freeze your coins if the exchange doesn't like your use of mixers (although true decentralized exchanges obviously don't care what you do with your coins, as it should be).

For trading between fiat and bitcoin or a select few major altcoins, then I would suggest Bisq, Hodl Hodl, or LocalCryptos.

I don't trade shitcoins, so I can't offer a suggestion for a good DEX for them. Be aware that many places which advertise themselves as a DEX are nothing of the sort, though, and simply use it as a marketing tactic.

pugman

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on November 21, 2020, 03:52:39 AM

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here. You want to use a decentralized exchange to mix your coins? Why would you not just use a tried and tested mixer such as ChipMixer instead? Or do you mean a decentralized exchange which will not discriminate against you for trading mixed coins or mixing your withdrawals?

Quote from: ?? on ??

I'm confused, are you looking for:
1. decentralized exchange,
2. decentralized mixer or
3. decentralized exchange which also have mixing protocol (such as PayJoin) ?

I seem to have caused a bit of confusion, let me rephrase:

I am looking for exchanges that won't block my account/amount if I withdraw or deposit the funds using a mixer. That is what I meant. I don't care all that much if I use a centralized exchange but I do care if my funds get blocked by the exchange. Do I make sense to you guys, or am I playing the lead role from Dumb and Dumber?

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Quote from: imstillthebest on November 21, 2020, 06:58:35 AM

i didnt knew that it can work as an escrow but i remember than an escrow held both funds before releasing them . mixers cant do that afaik but there are mixers that you can set a delay or on what time for your coins to arrive but using a trusted escrow is what i will still prefer . for depositing coins to exchange , there is no need to use for mixers . i never hear a hacker that steal coins from someone then depo it to an exchange but they will mostly depo it on the wallet or they will use mixers first . the reason could be the restriction of exchange is because they think the funds are stolen .

Bitcoin mixers should not be confused with the escrows. Both are different things with different purposes.
Also you should use mixers if its absolutely necessary to mix your coins to avoid the trace, because in normal circumstances we don't require mixers at all.

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i didnt knew that it can work as an escrow but i remember than an escrow held both funds before releasing them . mixers cant do that afaik but there are mixers that you can set a delay or on what time for your coins to arrive but using a trusted escrow is what i will still prefer . for depositing coins to exchange , there is no need to use for mixers . i never hear a hacker that steal coins from someone then depo it to an exchange but they will mostly depo it on the wallet or they will use mixers first . the reason could be the restriction of exchange is because they think the funds are stolen .

JohnBitCo

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Quote from: Stedsm on November 15, 2020, 05:13:46 PM

I hope everyone here knows what mixing services are, and for those who don't:

BTC mixers work as a medium, a medium that works like an escrow, gives you back your own coins but on your desired addresses and that too, from different places so for you to become non-traceable at your end. Now, these mixers don't know where these coins will be going to, so it's only you who knows about your coins, your addresses and your transactions.

So, what's the reason behind this thread?

Actually, most exchanges are reluctant to providing their users the authority of using mixers while depositing on their platform and I have heard so many news about exchanges stopping and freezing the account and some didn't even release the account as of today. I'm a privacy conscious person and would like to ask you whether I should still use mixers when depositing on an exchange or not.

Lets think of a scenario, You have bitcoins in Wallet A and you create another wallet B. Now you mix the coins and transfer them to the wallet B directly from the mixing service. Now you have got the coins in your wallet B, you can transfer them to any exchanges without any issue. This is the safest way to avoid any complexities at the exchanges.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: pugman on November 20, 2020, 06:12:11 PM

can y'all give me a few examples of a decent enough decentralized exchange where I can mix my coins?

I'm not sure I follow what you mean here. You want to use a decentralized exchange to mix your coins? Why would you not just use a tried and tested mixer such as ChipMixer instead? Or do you mean a decentralized exchange which will not discriminate against you for trading mixed coins or mixing your withdrawals?

Quote from: tippytoes on November 20, 2020, 06:17:51 PM

So avoid potential problem, why not avoid it in the first place? If you are worried about your privacy, there are exchanges that have no KYC like BNB or Kucoin, if you are dealing with lower amt of btc daily. Why not take advantage of those top exchanges that don't require KYC instead of using mixers?

Why not avoid potential problems by avoiding privacy invading exchanges instead? If you are worried about your privacy (which you should be), there are decentralized exchanges like Bisq and Hodl Hodl. The problem with using centralized exchanges like Binance or Kucoin which allow some users to not complete KYC, is that they can and do spring unannounced KYC on their users frequently, freezing your account and seizing your coins in the meantime. Your choice is then to either surrender your privacy or surrender you coins. Why not use mixers and decentralized exchanges, keep your privacy, and completely avoid the risk of some centralized exchange scamming you out of your coins.

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Quote from: DoublerHunter on November 18, 2020, 02:00:56 AM

Quote from: aizzaku on November 17, 2020, 02:49:20 PM

~snip~
That is a good question and I have also heard accounts getting flagged after coming from some mixing pools.

^ This what I am afraid for. I have not used a mixer service as well since I have no issue on my previous exchanges and on my gambling activities so it can only be a waste of time and another risk that you will take if you use one. In fact, many investors still didn't use it or have just tried it for once but for convenience and security I prefer not to use it anymore. Nevertheless, if you think it will make you more comfortable and secure you may still use a mixer it always depends on our preferences.

If you really have no strong reason why you want to use mixer, better not to. Because somewhere along the way, you won't know if the exchange site you will be using in your future transactions will flag down your tx owed to being tied up with mixer. So avoid potential problem, why not avoid it in the first place? If you are worried about your privacy, there are exchanges that have no KYC like BNB or Kucoin, if you are dealing with lower amt of btc daily. Why not take advantage of those top exchanges that don't require KYC instead of using mixers?

Topic: Should I use mixers? (Read 1057 times)