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Topic: Should money have intrisic value ? - page 3. (Read 10609 times)

legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
December 03, 2010, 10:00:36 AM
#33
The phrase 'intrinsic value' doesn't mean that something has value as an intrinsic characteristic, but that it is valued because of some characteristic intrinsic to the thing, as opposed to value due to derived from the promises of a third party.

Exactly.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
December 03, 2010, 09:53:39 AM
#32
It's a human valuation and human use that determine the usefulness of an object. That's subjective theory of value.

Perhaps say, humanity don't value or use gold at all. That automatically make gold worthless.

Intrinsic theory of value say that each object have an objective value that can be determined without the need of human judgement.

Then opposite to "subjective" is "objective", not "intrinsic".

I've been defending subjective theory of value for a long time now, and yet I consider that "intrinsic" value keeps a meaning even in subjective theory of value.  Exeamples have been given.

In subjective theory of value, I can value an object because I desire it.  But if I desire it for itself, i.e. I don't intend to trade it for something else, then I say this value is intrinsic.  It's an intrinsic subjective value.  There is no paradox here.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 03, 2010, 09:50:12 AM
#31
The phrase 'intrinsic value' doesn't mean that something has value as an intrinsic characteristic, but that it is valued because of some characteristic intrinsic to the thing, as opposed to value due to derived from the promises of a third party.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
December 03, 2010, 09:38:29 AM
#30

I mean :  the value of an ice cream is obviously more "intrinsic" that the value of a 1$ bank note.    Don't you get ?

I can eat and enjoy the former, while I need to trade the latter against something if I want to get any benefit from it.


It's a human valuation and human use that determine the usefulness of an object. That's subjective theory of value.

Perhaps say, humanity don't value or use gold at all. That automatically make gold worthless.

Intrinsic theory of value say that each object have an objective value that can be determined without the need of human judgement.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
December 03, 2010, 09:31:19 AM
#29
I don't believe each objects have an inherent value of its own.

And yet, they do.

I mean :  the value of an ice cream is obviously more "intrinsic" that the value of a 1$ bank note.    Don't you get it ?

I can eat and enjoy the former, while I need to trade the latter against something if I want to get any benefit from it.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
December 03, 2010, 09:10:52 AM
#28
This is merely a semantic game.

I don't believe each objects have an inherent value of its own.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 03, 2010, 05:54:59 AM
#27
What you may claim is that things have inherent characteristics that make them useful for certain purposes. For example, cotton has inherent characteristics that make it useful for making clothes.

Perhaps this is what is meant by "intrinsic value"

If you mean intrinsic attributes that make a particular thing useful for some particular usage, than bitcoins do have inherent attributes that make them useful as means of exchange.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 03, 2010, 05:51:55 AM
#26
Please, memorize: There is no such a thing as intrinsic value.

"Intrinsic value" means something. Otherwise the label would be pointless; a synonym for "nothing".

It's worse than pointless, it's misleading. Intrinsic value is a fallacy. This fallacious concept has been used to justify horrible economic theories. We should understand why value exist, and why it is not intrinsic to the valued stuff.
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
December 03, 2010, 04:44:23 AM
#25
Please, memorize: There is no such a thing as intrinsic value.

"Intrinsic value" means something. Otherwise the label would be pointless; a synonym for "nothing".

What you may claim is that things have inherent characteristics that make them useful for certain purposes. For example, cotton has inherent characteristics that make it useful for making clothes.

Perhaps this is what is meant by "intrinsic value"
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
December 03, 2010, 04:39:02 AM
#24
That's not value. Utility if you will. But not value... The fallacy of intrinsic value is what allowed stupid theories like marxist labor-value to remain alive until present days. It is important to understand it, value is not intrinsic.


Ah maybe intrinsic is not a correct word, but still, it has some meaning.

To me, value is a mesure of desire.  And I think desire is a bit different when it is only motivated by the belief in someone else's desire.  Maybe I should have talked about "real" value as opposed to "speculative" value.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 03, 2010, 04:24:21 AM
#23
Only now that I saw this topic.

Please, memorize: There is no such a thing as intrinsic value.

Oh please. It's a very specific definition.

An object is said to have an intrinsic value if humans can find ways to use it other then...money.

That's not value. Utility if you will. But not value... The fallacy of intrinsic value is what allowed stupid theories like marxist labor-value to remain alive until present days. It is important to understand it, value is not intrinsic.

The fallacy of intrinsic value, by Gary North.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
December 03, 2010, 03:30:40 AM
#22
Only now that I saw this topic.

Please, memorize: There is no such a thing as intrinsic value.

Oh please. It's a very specific definition.

An object is said to have an intrinsic value if humans can find ways to use it other then...money.

So cows, cars, houses, etc have intrinsic value. It's not in conflict with subjective theory of value at all.

Now, why gold? Well, because gold is the mean of starting over from a barter economy. Bitcoins have no value in a barter economy and cannot arose as money until gold or some other form of money emerge.

Therefore, gold is the best form for storing your wealth over the long term. We also see that gold have thousand years of experience as money, while bitcoin...is only 2 years old at best.

People trust gold coins more than they trust some new fanged thing called bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
December 03, 2010, 03:18:27 AM
#21
Only now that I saw this topic.

Please, memorize: There is no such a thing as intrinsic value.

Value is an opinion people have on stuff. It is not a characteristic of stuff themselves. It is important to remember it. If you say the value of something is intrinsic to this something, changing the value of this something would be changing the thing itself. So, for example, if somebody mines tones of new gold which eventually drop the value of your gold, you could accuse this person of violating your property rights, by changing it without your permission. This is nonsense.
Understanding that value is not intrinsic was the main achievement of the austrian economics, which set them aside the "rest". Smiley

What you may claim is that things have inherent characteristics that make them useful for certain purposes. For example, cotton has inherent characteristics that make it useful for making clothes.

Now, if you ask, must money have some other utility than being a good means of exchange and store of value?
My answer would be: what for? Isn't the specialization in resource usage one of the main features of capitalism?

Gold is useful as money and for making jewelry and other industrial uses.
Bitcoins are even more useful as money and.... that's it.
So, why keep using gold as money, if we have something even better, and by using something else, more gold could be liberated for other uses where it has none or few substitutes?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 03, 2010, 01:57:08 AM
#20

That's not an answer.

Fair enough. Let me try an answer.

Mises' Regression Theorem shows us how money's value is established.

The reason why gold arise as the money of choice is because it is a useful commodity under barter(intrinsic value). In other words, gold got its start because it is valuable in an a barter economy, not because it was a good medium of exchange. That come later.

Does bitcoin have any value in a barter economy? Nope.

But if you can exchange bitcoin in term of gold, than you seed a way for price estimation.

Thus...

Sheeps -> Gold -> paper money -> unbacked FR notes -> Bitcoins. <- Gold again.

IF our economy were to crash and the bitcoin network is wiped out, we have to start with gold again before we can start using bitcoins.

Okay, I understand your point, and agree.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
December 03, 2010, 01:34:25 AM
#19

That's not an answer.

Fair enough. Let me try an answer.

Mises' Regression Theorem shows us how money's value is established.

The reason why gold arise as the money of choice is because it is a useful commodity under barter(intrinsic value). In other words, gold got its start because it is valuable in an a barter economy, not because it was a good medium of exchange. That come later.

Does bitcoin have any value in a barter economy? Nope.

But if you can exchange bitcoin in term of gold, than you seed a way for price estimation.

Thus...

Sheeps -> Gold -> paper money -> unbacked FR notes -> Bitcoins. <- Gold again.

IF our economy were to crash and the bitcoin network is wiped out, we have to start with gold again before we can start using bitcoins.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 03, 2010, 01:27:28 AM
#18
Intrinsic value is required for money to arise in a barter economy.

Once we get beyond that, we can now bootstrap a currency like bitcoin.

Now we have information by which we can perform economic calculation.

The introduction of money into a barter economy only serves as a 'unknown third party' barter, it doesn't otherwise alter the basis of the exchange.  I don't otherwise understand your statement.  What have we 'gotten beyond' in order to bootstrap, and why is it a prerequisite?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-does-not-violate-mises-regression-theorem-583

That's not an answer.
legendary
Activity: 980
Merit: 1020
December 03, 2010, 01:23:57 AM
#17
Intrinsic value is required for money to arise in a barter economy.

Once we get beyond that, we can now bootstrap a currency like bitcoin.

Now we have information by which we can perform economic calculation.

The introduction of money into a barter economy only serves as a 'unknown third party' barter, it doesn't otherwise alter the basis of the exchange.  I don't otherwise understand your statement.  What have we 'gotten beyond' in order to bootstrap, and why is it a prerequisite?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-does-not-violate-mises-regression-theorem-583
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 03, 2010, 01:18:49 AM
#16
Intrinsic value is required for money to arise in a barter economy.

Once we get beyond that, we can now bootstrap a currency like bitcoin.

Now we have information by which we can perform economic calculation.

The introduction of money into a barter economy only serves as a 'unknown third party' barter, it doesn't otherwise alter the basis of the exchange.  I don't otherwise understand your statement.  What have we 'gotten beyond' in order to bootstrap, and why is it a prerequisite?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
December 03, 2010, 01:12:02 AM
#15

There are so many things wrong with this post, I may have trouble untangling it, but I will try.


Currency = small physical money tokens (coins & notes).
Money = more general concept of spendable stuff including currency and credit.
(My summary based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money )


Wikipedia is nice, but is sometimes a poor reference.  This is one of those times.

Currency is a commonly accepted unit of exchange.  It does not need to be more, but is often 'backed' by some promise from it's issuing agency, such as a gold standard.  It is best when it is very difficult (read expensive) to fake, which is why paper currencies are ever increasing the 'security measures' in their notes.  Also, a currency is an arbitrary mathmatical unit of measurement, in much the same vein that both an inch and a meter are arbitrary units of length.  Both measure the same thing, just as the US $ and the Euro both measure an elusive concept of quantifications of value, but the units themselves are simply a matter of convention.

Money, in the other hand, isn't a unit.  An ideal money has several characteristics that lend to it's suitability as a natural currency, but it does not need to be a currency.

Those characteristics are...

Durability - It cannot rust or rot.  Nor should it require a container to either protect it from harm or it's user, one reason that mercury was never used as a money as far as I know.

Divisability - The ability to 'make change' without impacting the value of the money.  Cattle have a definable value, but are a terrible way to pay one's mortgage.

Fungibility - This basicly means that the quality is uniform, so that one measure of the money is equal to any other.

Transportability - This should be self evident, but the money should be valuable enough that carrying it shouldn't be a burden.

Congizability - Which means that money should be easily recognizable as probably being authentic by normal human senses, without the need to trust testing devices or experts.

The above conditions, historicly, have only been met by material classes that we commonly refer to as commodities, but the closest naturally occurring commodity to the ideal money has always been refined gold.

Then I'm really confused, because money requires an intrinsic value by definition.

I'm not sure about that.  Which definition?

I thought money's main necessary properties were
  • Mostly conserved.  Sure you might lose some if careless, but you can't duplicate it (double spend, shaving the edge off gold coins, counterfeits).
  • Like currency, needs to be transferred around in useful-size easy-to-validate denominations without too much inconvenience (= cost).
  • Scarce.  Hence, in part, the Hitchhiker's Guide joke about using leaves off trees as money?  I put it last, but I suspect it is of primary importance.
Scarcity is not a requirement of money, and can be a detriment.  Historic case, platinum is much more rare than gold in nature, but also rare enough that most people had no experience with it (this was also somewhat true with gold, which is why nations traded in gold but the citizens traded mostly in silver or copper) so the Spanish made cannons out of platinum that was mined in central America.  Also, scarcity doesn't always equate to concentration of value.  Although silver is about 17 times more abundant in nature than gold, there is much more gold in a refined state than silver today.  This is mostly due to the fact that silver is an industrial commodity in our modern world, with little to no monetary value, so most of the silver mined has been consumed in industry; whereas gold's monetary value has always priced it out of it's industrial uses, so nearly all of the gold that has ever been mined in recorded human history can still be accounted for.

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Various forms of money have problems,
  • Consider diamonds & rubies as currency.  Now they can be made (some would say counterfeited) industrially it is very difficult to justify or enforce a high price for the ones coming out of mines.
Jewels might have a high unit value, but they still make a poor money because they are neither fungible (two diamonds may both be the same carrot rating, but one be more valuable for some other characteristic, such as cut, color or clarity) nor are they congizabile (it's an expert skill to be able to judge the value of a diamond).  They don't always have a high unit value, either.

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  • Consider the popular electronic fiat money forms - credit cards and paypal.  The inconvenience here seems to me to be running quite high (~5% per transfer).  How this compares with the old days of shipping gold coins on horseback, I don't know.
I'm not sure of your point here, paper currencies were originally receipts of gold on deposit at a goldmonger or bank, and were traded as a symbol of that gold.  The improved portability of paper over metal is not a new concept, and neither is the improved portability of electronic forms of credit, but neither is an example of a money.

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Does money need to be useful for something else?  I suspect not, but back when money was just currency the options were more limited.


Again, you seem to be conflating the two concepts.  They are related, but still distinct.

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As kiba said, gold is good for decoration & its physical properties.  If it wasn't useful, we wouldn't work so hard to dig it out; but if it's not hard work to get some more, the "scarce" property is absent.


The scarcity of gold, relative to many other comparable commodities, is absent.  You need to get past the idea that scarcity is a condition of value, it's not.  Your fingerprints are rare, but I would say you would be suspicious of anyone who valued them.  Water is the most abundant molecule on the planet, but has a quantifiable value almost everywhere.  The difference is that water has common utility, whereas your fingerprints do not.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1080
December 03, 2010, 12:17:43 AM
#14
Then I'm really confused, because money requires an intrinsic value by definition.

I'm not sure about that.  Which definition?

I thought money's main necessary properties were
  • Mostly conserved.  Sure you might lose some if careless, but you can't duplicate it (double spend, shaving the edge off gold coins, counterfeits).
  • Like currency, needs to be transferred around in useful-size easy-to-validate denominations without too much inconvenience (= cost).
  • Scarce.  Hence, in part, the Hitchhiker's Guide joke about using leaves off trees as money?  I put it last, but I suspect it is of primary importance.
Agreed.  It has to be indestrucible, divisable and scarce.
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