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Topic: Should You be Concerned About a Bitcoin Chain Split on August 1st? - page 2. (Read 2199 times)

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Segwit BIP148 could easily take a majority of users with it, causing the market price of the 1MB chain to drop. There's no point mining a blockchain with no users, although fiat money could be used to pump the 1MB chain up of course (to wit, Ethereum has no users, and a huge market cap to match.... strange huh).

Well, there's a difference between venting your opinion, or selling your original bitcoins at dumping prices.  The right thing to do is not to dump the version of the coin you don't like, but to dump the version of the coin that will lose the battle (which may be the one you don't like).  You have to dump your "original bitcoins" to kill the legacy chain.  You need balls to do so.  Not just a big mouth or a node in your basement.

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This is because the 1MB chain would be at a serious practical disadvantage: the transaction capacity that (supposedly) forms the crux of the whole blocksize debate. The BIP148 chain would have at least 2 times the on-chain capacity (so ~600,000 transactions per day) and the 1MB chain would still have only 300,000 transactions per day.

Let us not forget the rate at which blocks will be produced on both prongs will be proportional to the hash rate that goes with each of the chains, because of bitcoin's slow difficulty adjustment.  As such, if the initial hash rate split is 1/3 for 148 and 2/3 for the rest (which is if all segwit-signalling pools "jump the fence" right now and the others remain mining as they used to, on the legacy chain), then the 148 chain will have one block every 30 minutes, while the legacy chain will have one block every 15 minutes.

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And once BIP148 mining hashrate is higher than the 1MB chain's hashrate, it's game over for the 1MB chain. The 2 chains are compatible, as a result of Segwit being a soft fork. A minority BIP148 hashrate causes a chain split because of this, but a minority hashrate for 1MB causes the 1MB chain to get orphaned out of existance.

Of course, if the legacy chain is running on, at a certain point, one needs to protect it with a HF to protect if from a reorganizing.  That HF could include also a block increase (not very hard to do with Core software: just change the block size parameter).  The simplest HF would be to include a check point after the split.

It would be wise to do that if the legacy chain survives for several days and if both coins get listed on exchanges (which is the only way to make an ECONOMIC difference between both: if both bitcoins are not listed on exchanges, people cannot dump one and buy another one).  So if exchanges list both coins, the fork should be made bilateral with a HF ; one could use that HF to increase the block size.

In fact, both chains would have something to offer: one would be segwit-bitcoin but which is locked into the paradigm of "never a hard fork" ; the other chain will have to HF to protect itself, and once the first hard fork is taken, this dogma of never a hard fork is gone now ; after all, the only reason to avoid hard forks was to avoid a chain (and coin) split, and the funny thing is that it are the proponents of a soft fork that forced the chain split !  So the argument of soft forks that was supposed to do away with hard forks ("avoid chain splits at all costs") has been killed exactly by the proponents of soft forks.

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It's a high wire strategy that Shaolinfry is employing, for sure. But it could well work, I can't help but admire the boldness and determinism, but it really needs that majority or super majority user support. I think it's sitting somewhere around 30% or 40% of full nodes right now, but that's majority people just using the version string comment, which I don't believe would actually work to activate the BIP148 fork too smoothly. It needs 50%+ nodes to run the actual BIP148 compliant Bitcoin node software to stand a chance. I hope it works, but I''m on the fence right now.

Again, the fraction of full nodes doesn't matter at all in this.  First of all, it could very well be Sybilled ; second, it doesn't include any firm engagement of nobody ; third: it is absolutely not representative of the real choices of the economic majority when it comes to dumping their original bitcoins ; and finally, its hope is self-contradictory: in order to gain economic traction, BOTH COINS need to be listed on exchanges (excluding exchanges already as economic actors, because they have to list both) ; once both coins are listed, the two chains need to be protected with a HF (also, to avoid replay attacks and all the mess coming from that) ; once the legacy chain has been forced to HF, it has no problems any more to HF again to bigger blocks.

Note that in this entire "user activated soft fork" business, the full nodes don't count for zilch.  What matters is:

1) that a sufficient fraction of miners leaves the original chain to go and mine their own (probably minority) fork - so the game is initiated by miners

2) that exchanges list both coins, the legacy one and the segwit one

3) that enough bitcoin owners dump one of their coins and buy the other so as to make one prevail over the other.

However, the nasty thing is that in order for one to prevail, both coins first need to be listed, and that there is no guarantee that "prevailing" will mean "death" of the small chain.

In other words, in order for the UASF manoeuvre to succeed, bitcoin needs to be split, most probably for ever (because the legacy chain will need to HF quickly to protect itself).

The ONLY way in which this UASF could have the desired result, is that miners are so afraid of a split, that a majority joins IMMEDIATELY the new chain.  In that case, the soft fork imposes its majority rule PURELY by MINER CHOICE (no users, no full nodes nothing).

Once miners learn that they can implement soft forks by simple majority, and not by any kind of consensus, and not by taking into account any users or markets, another Box of Pandora has been opened.

I think that there's more than enough potential spectacle in the UASF thing to take popcorn and be watching the 1. August Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
Anyone should be concerned, but I think it'll be the factor that drives enough to people to adopt Segwit in a less silly manner to avoid a splitting scenario. We'll see some true colours emerging along the way though.
newbie
Activity: 64
Merit: 0
If the war backed US Dollar tanks then one can be royally screwed too. I think I will wait it out and see what happens having the funds in a hardline wallet.
Though I anticipate more nervousness (probably a Bitcoin zombie apocalypse) cometh August.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Also would the price of each of them be the same?

we can't say for sure, but if a chain split happens for any reason, be it UASF or BU or anything else, there is a high chance of the total price be much less than current price

We should always remember about the worst case scenario

If we exclude irrelevant ones like Sun exploding, Manhattan size asteroid hitting Earth, Trump going totally insane (though I'm not sure if we should discard the last option altogether), then this would likely be the worst case, i.e. the combined price of two split coins being less than before the "halving". And it seems to be quite possible and probable, at least, for some time before it becomes apparent which coin is the clear winner. So it might make sense after all to cash out now (partly or in full) and wait out the troubled times in the safe havens like the US dollar?
member
Activity: 138
Merit: 14
Quote
can you explain this better, i never understood how this is going to work.
both chains will have nodes, hashrate, value, a place to trade them (exchanges will list both happily because they will earn twice the fee)!
then how does BIP148 going to force any non-BIP148 to do anything else

Because if the BIP 148 chain gets longer, the old chain gets reorged into the BIP 148 chain, causing the history of transactions of the old  chain (it's being called "legacy" chain) to disappear (along with bitcoins transacted there). Since this can only happen in the legacy chain reorging into the new chain (no losses if the other direction happens), it is expected this risk of transactions being wiped out will make legacy chain transactors nervous enough to gravitate to the BIP 148 chain.

But you know, even if the chains remain split, I'd be pretty nervous transacting on the legacy chain knowing dozens and dozens of the top developers,  having probably been exiled to the minority BIP 148 chain (if it were the majority chain Segwit would activate) and possibly have some idle time on their hands, may just look in the direction of the legacy chain with eyes of causing much damage to what will inevitably be weaker code on the legacy side. And judging by history, the legacy chain code will just get weaker and weaker as time goes on, since the top developers would now be on the other side of the "fence". Will open season on legacy chain begin starting early August (or did the developers take some sort of software hippocratic oath when they entered the crypto world)?
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
yes you should.
and the best thing to do is to to move your coins to a cold storage and not touch them until the fate of the chains are decided. we can not possibly know which chain will survive and becomes bitcoin. and it can take a while!

This is interesting. How would such a fork go for online wallets such as blockchain?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1137
the reason i am having a hard time accepting how a chain split can work for BIP148 is there are a lot of unknown things that can happen, most of which involves price. and usually i see people mention that "because of economical reasons miners will be forced to switch to BIP148 chain".

but here is what i think will happen (only in case of chain split and low support % of miners):
in the short term:
there will be a lot of panic, and a lot of war. those who are against BIP148, SegWit,... will start dumping on its chain. the same will be about those who are against the legacy chain who will dump on the other chain/market on exchanges. => price drop on both sides.
there will a lot of FUD, like the FUD that caused the drop from $250 to $888 a couple of months ago. => even bigger drop
panic sells => even bigger drop
there is no economical advantage that works as incentive for any miner to switch!

bitcoin is not ethereum to have a foundation controlling 75% of the coins to only dump on the chain they don't want (aka ETC) to keep its price down while pumping their own chain. bitcoin is distributed well among people supporting different things and lots of whales on both sides, miners included. => even more drops.

and as for SegWit and LN benefits (long term):
what if legacy chain (non-BIP148) activated SegWit too?
lets say after BIP148 chain split, the war happened and price tanked hard, the legacy chain went ahead with the big hashrate and activated SegWit finally. with some proposal like The Barry Silbert with >80% miners support!
in that case BIP148 chain won't have any advantage anymore! it will be a chain with low hashrate, for bitcoin that has took a big hit because we rushed to force a chain split just to activate SegWit faster.
again there is no economical advantage that works as incentive for any miner to switch!
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
It makes sense, as they'd protect the value of BTC on the exchanges far better this way, by making a minority Segwit chain the majority chain, forcing the minority legacy chain miners to accept the new chain (BIP148 strangles non-BIP148 supporting block solutions at birth, the anti-Segwit miners really would have no choice Cool).

can you explain this better, i never understood how this is going to work.
both chains will have nodes, hashrate, value, a place to trade them (exchanges will list both happily because they will earn twice the fee)!
then how does BIP148 going to force any non-BIP148 to do anything else


BIP148 is a multi-layered force majeur. The effect being leveraged is the protectionist tendencies of the miners, appealing to their desire to protect the value of BTC on the markets. The more smoothly BIP148 activates, and the quicker the 1MB chain is swallowed up by the BIP148 chain, the less disruption there will be in the BTC price. All very motivating for miners and users alike.


Segwit BIP148 could easily take a majority of users with it, causing the market price of the 1MB chain to drop. There's no point mining a blockchain with no users, although fiat money could be used to pump the 1MB chain up of course (to wit, Ethereum has no users, and a huge market cap to match.... strange huh).

This is because the 1MB chain would be at a serious practical disadvantage: the transaction capacity that (supposedly) forms the crux of the whole blocksize debate. The BIP148 chain would have at least 2 times the on-chain capacity (so ~600,000 transactions per day) and the 1MB chain would still have only 300,000 transactions per day. And Lightning would kick off pretty quickly on the BIP148 chain also, so both these things together, combined with pre-existing popularity with users, could easily make the BIP148 chain more popular to use, as Lightning on a BTC based chain could send utility into the stratosphere, bricks and mortar shops could suddenly accept BTC over Lightning incredibly easily and smoothly.

Those factors combined would put alot of pressure on the 1MB chain miners, especially if the BIP148 chain became more popular to mine and on the markets. Fiat money can be used to pump either chain, but the pump would be more believably driven by real, distributed demand (i.e. real people acting in concert to buy) in the case of the BIP148 chain.

And once BIP148 mining hashrate is higher than the 1MB chain's hashrate, it's game over for the 1MB chain. The 2 chains are compatible, as a result of Segwit being a soft fork. A minority BIP148 hashrate causes a chain split because of this, but a minority hashrate for 1MB causes the 1MB chain to get orphaned out of existance.


It's a high wire strategy that Shaolinfry is employing, for sure. But it could well work, I can't help but admire the boldness and determinism, but it really needs that majority or super majority user support. I think it's sitting somewhere around 30% or 40% of full nodes right now, but that's majority people just using the version string comment, which I don't believe would actually work to activate the BIP148 fork too smoothly. It needs 50%+ nodes to run the actual BIP148 compliant Bitcoin node software to stand a chance. I hope it works, but I''m on the fence right now.
sr. member
Activity: 2436
Merit: 343
Yes, i'm concerned for the chain split for bitcoin because it might affect the price and bitcoin because the community can be split too and some of the users of bitcoin might transfer to another coin and if it happen then it will be a huge price decrease and i think we should be educated for the possible scenarios that can happen.
hero member
Activity: 3010
Merit: 794
Uhmm i Don't really understand it but if that would happen will it have a new name or it would still remain. How do we identify the other coin from one another?. Also would the price of each of them be the same? I came across some reading last month i think and i dont really have it but is this the same as halving? where they would split the coins because of the issue of payments and delays?
Try look at the situation of ETH and ETC that will happen also to bitcoin once been activated and talking about the price it would really be different at all and not the same on the current price as of now. I dont really care at all since this thing wont really happen further but if it would then expect for some changes.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1137
Also would the price of each of them be the same?

we can't say for sure, but if a chain split happens for any reason, be it UASF or BU or anything else, there is a high chance of the total price be much less than current price.

It makes sense, as they'd protect the value of BTC on the exchanges far better this way, by making a minority Segwit chain the majority chain, forcing the minority legacy chain miners to accept the new chain (BIP148 strangles non-BIP148 supporting block solutions at birth, the anti-Segwit miners really would have no choice Cool).

can you explain this better, i never understood how this is going to work.
both chains will have nodes, hashrate, value, a place to trade them (exchanges will list both happily because they will earn twice the fee)!
then how does BIP148 going to force any non-BIP148 to do anything else
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
It's not unlikely, but not definite either, that miners mining on those pools who aren't supporting UASF will switch their miners to the pools that do support it.

It makes sense, as they'd protect the value of BTC on the exchanges far better this way, by making a minority Segwit chain the majority chain, forcing the minority legacy chain miners to accept the new chain (BIP148 strangles non-BIP148 supporting block solutions at birth, the anti-Segwit miners really would have no choice Cool). Current support is at ~32.5 % hashrate for Segwit BIP141, BIP148 would need another 17.5% of miners on non-Segwit pools to really make the fork viable.



I'm not sure I really think that setting a dated deadline of August 1st to UASF is the most sensible way to do it. The softfork needs 50%+ hashrate to do it anything like safely, so why not use the hashrate as the activating parameter? I think Shaolinfry (BIP148 programmer) is being too aggressive, and remember folks, that's coming from me.

But user support among nodes on the Bitcoin network is growing. I might reconsider this position, and take the aggressive stance, if user support grew beyond 50%. Certainly if it were as high as 66% or 75%.
sr. member
Activity: 546
Merit: 250
Uhmm i Don't really understand it but if that would happen will it have a new name or it would still remain. How do we identify the other coin from one another?. Also would the price of each of them be the same? I came across some reading last month i think and i dont really have it but is this the same as halving? where they would split the coins because of the issue of payments and delays?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1137
yes you should.
and the best thing to do is to to move your coins to a cold storage and not touch them until the fate of the chains are decided. we can not possibly know which chain will survive and becomes bitcoin. and it can take a while!

although i am a big fan of any kind of UASF, but sadly it seems like the community is so hyped up about the idea that it is forgetting about the high risks it has.

3. USAF lacks community support,

not sure how much this part is true though. the node count shows an increasing rate of nodes showing their support for it.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1079
It is likely that the user-activated soft fork (USAF) would be activated on August 1 which would result in a bitcoin chain split.

Likely outcomes:

1. Bitcoin core protocol would undergo some changes.

2. Blockchain split, leaving multiple or at least two types of bitcoins, on two different blockchains.

3. USAF lacks community support, the Chinese mining pools are against it so a split would end in one chain with Bitcoin and SegWit activation, whereas the other one will be dominated by the Chinese mining pools.

The first UASF bitcoin mining pool, http://pa.xro.ca, currently under maintenance.

There is a small possibility that blockchain split might happen and if that happens users would be left with two different bitcoins. No one is sure of what's going to happen in cryptosphere, as a precaution it is better to withdraw any funds from online wallets or exchanges before August 1.

Source: https://themerkle.com/should-you-be-concerned-about-a-bitcoin-chain-split-on-august-1st
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