Topic: Shower thought. Bitcoin ETF bad? - page 3. (Read 657 times)

Hear, hear ...

In one word ... Rehypothecation (bad). Example, ...

The Rehypothecation Of Gold, And Why It Matters
- https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-24/rehypothecation-gold-and-why-it-matters

Mt. Gox anyone ?

If you give custody of your bitcoins to a third party - then they are no longer your bitcoins.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possession_is_nine-tenths_of_the_law

Freedom isn't free. Not your keys, not your coins.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange-traded_fund

Yes. Bitcoin ETF bad.

we know its heading that way, regulation and adoption and ETF is just one of the approval we all need here. if you care so much of privacy and this ETF isn't how it must be then there are always option. i go to that option as well like getting more into the privacy coins but more of us are into making profit which isn't bad at all. BAKKT already started, we're almost there.

How? We can write angry posts on this forum or on twitter, but it won't prevent people from launching such platforms. It's also impossible to change the rules of Bitcoin to prevent creation of these platforms, because Bitcoin's protocol doesn't know anything about how the coins are used, and it can't know.


If all it takes to defeat Bitcoin is just launch an ETF, then Bitcoin is not that resistant. But I believe it's not the case.

The reality is that a minority thinks of it as a bad development for Bitcoin, while the (far) majority thinks of it as a positive development because price gains is all they care about. Majority will get what it wants in this case. I can understand both camps though, because there are definitely tradeoffs and benefits to be pointed out.

I'm leaning more towards the camp that wants to see the price go up. People can pretend to not find the price an important aspect all they want, but deep down they like it. It's just hard to admit for some because they're more worried about what other maxis think of them.

In the end, higher price leads to a more secure network, and more liquidity that can be used to invest in development or the ecosystem around it to make Bitcoin an even bigger phenomenon.

Do the "majority of people" use a broker service, though?  With the exception of some free shares I was given by my employer, I sure as hell don't, but that might just due to my distrust of traditional finance.  Because if people aren't using a broker, that's the only way casual investors can access an ETF.  I'm guessing most banks offer such services, but I suspect the majority of people are currently more concerned with putting food on the table in an age of ever increasing disparity between rich and poor.  Unless you meant the "majority of people with access to disposable income looking to invest in something", perhaps?

Then there's the generational gap to consider.  Are brokers keeping up with current trends?  I don't feel like brokers have made much of an attempt to engage with me, so I'm seemingly not their target audience.  Who else are they overlooking?  And where will those people look to store their wealth?  I get the impression younger generations feel that crypto is quite accessible to them, so perhaps they're more likely to want to hold their own private keys.

I suspect brokers will also be required to mention that crypto ETFs will be on the higher end of the risk spectrum, so that may also prompt casual investors to look at other options.  It's a widely held assumption here on the forums that a Bitcoin or other crypto ETF will unfold just like previous ETFs, but I'm not convinced of that.  A Bitcoin ETF won't be like a precious metals ETF in terms of volatility.  It will be an altogether different beast.

And then there's obviously that pesky first hurdle of how long it will actually take one of these things to get the green light from the bureaucrats.  Could easily be a few more years yet.  Will investors be prepared to wait, or will FOMO force them to download a wallet and do it the "proper" way?

There's just so many variables to consider.  There's no way to know how it's going to unfold.

i haven't looked at any of the bitcoin ETF specs too closely, but you can generally short ETFs. there are also leveraged ETFs (both bull and bear funds). if any ETF is approved, im sure short and ultra-short ETFs will be approved too. and any ETF with an open-ended creation/redemption process will affect the spot market via arbitrage, so shorters could affect prices.

i actually don't think ETF is bad, at least it is not as bad as futures and margin trading where they let people short bitcoin specially when they are whales and can manipulate the market and cause unreasonable volatility at times which is more damaging to bitcoin that it may look like.
in the end things like ETF can help introducing bitcoin to more people. which means it can even help those who don't want to "be their own bank" to enter bitcoin. maybe in time they realize what bitcoin offers and switch to directly using bitcoin.

That is a good valid point, majority of the people will find it difficult to safe guard their private keys and people will find it useful to invest in ETF.

Having more options when it comes to bitcoin is a welcoming thing. People take their individual decisions when it comes to investment and there is no point in discouraging, but letting them know about the pros and cons is the idle process. After all bitcoin is meant to be financial freedom from the clutches of centralized oppressive government.

I tend to agree -- it's a free market and all that. Although it does make me uncomfortable when I think about how much of the circulating supply is in the possession of a handful of entities like Coinbase, BitMEX, Bitfinex, Xapo, etc.

it wouldn't affect bitcoin's censorship resistance or hard money qualities, would it?

the only problem in principle is people employing third party trust and sadly, that's inevitable. from both philosophical and security perspectives, i really don't think the world was ready for bitcoin. nevertheless, it's here. those who don't value trustlessness will eventually pay the price.

I'm not sure if I agree with 'the community' when it comes to being your own bank. Sure, it's preferred in terms of having full control over your coins, but some people just don't care enough about the values we consider important.

People here have a hard time looking at the other side of the story because they find it necessary to promote their vision without taking into consideration that not everyone has a problem with third parties.

Bakkt exists because there is a demand for their service. Coinbase custody exists because there is a demand for their service, and so forth. If people consider these services valuable to them, then good luck to them.

What is this "Bitcoin community" you speak of?

Unfortunately, an ETF or other custodial Bitcoin securities is inevitable. Wall Street doesn't care about our principles. Besides, this space has been overrun by people more concerned about getting rich than being their own bank. Investors believe that an ETF or Bakkt = institutional money driving prices up, and that's what matters to them. I consider this a lost battle.

It'll all end in tears when an ETF trust or Bakkt's vaults get cleaned out, or trustees get caught "printing" custodied bitcoins. Real bitcoiners will be unaffected, though. That's what matters.

I can'y say that Bitcoin ETF is very good or bad. But I am sure about one thing. If Bitcoin ETF is confirmed, it will make a dump on Bitcoin price and Bitcoin will continue to get closer to $ 20k.

I believe Bitcoin ETF is good for Bitcoin adoption and awareness.  Imagine huge company buying and holding Bitcoin to back up whatever asset they are selling. Many of us probably misunderstood ETF as a third party controlling our Bitcoin but I think Franky1 had a good explanation on how ETF works and why it gives a positive view on Bitcoin and Bitcoin market.

What do you mean, what censorship ?
ETF if a economical instrument and financial option , it allows certain investors to get in within existing legal framework.
Even more, in reality ETF with high probability will not allow to buy BTC directly ut some option that covers BTC price.

Do you think it might just be approved?

To those bodies that will regulate cryptocurrency all these crypto technology doesn't matter and whether it defeats crypto purpose or not, they are not important since all they would see is the value in USD.  Price I think will still go up because the prices in exchanges still would be the first to look at.

ETF has the potential to eliminate security problems and the instability of the bitcoin market. Investors can still be introduced into the world of bitcoin and remain in a familiar and certainly regulated setting. Each ETF is bound to an index, and ETF performance tracks the performance of the underlying index. So the Bitcoin ETF offers a safer and more stable way for investors to experience the benefits of the Bitcoin market without plunging into the wild world of Bitcoin.

an ETF is NOT where you buy bitcoin and put them into a trusted custodian..
an ETF IS where a company buys thier own bitcoins. vaults them up as collateral of the company(assets) and then sell shares of their assets.
customers/investors of ETF's do not own the company nor bitcoins. they own shares that represent an allotment of coins.

the benefits people see is that instead of random people buying small amounts of coins on exchanges(not much movement in price) large ETF's buy large lumps of coins which can move the price.

the disadvantages people see is if the large ETF's dont buy from public exchanges thus not affect the public prices

the benefits of ETF's is that regulated financial industry can invest in ETF's for banking/pension/investment funds where as those same funds cannot really invest in bitcoin direct due to regulatory grey area's

the benefit is that it means bitcoin itself does not get heavily regulated out of the hands of average joe, because the financial sector has their gateway into investments, without directly touching bitcoin, but still reaping some of the benefits of the price movements

From the speculators point of view,ETF approval would be great,because it will bring fresh money to the BTC market,thus increasing the price.For some cryptography fanatics and libertarians,ETF approval is bad,because it puts more bitcoins under the control of the big banks,hedge funds and corporations and turns bitcoin into nothing more than a financial instrument in the dirty hands of Wall Street.Who's right?I don't know.We will find out in the near future.