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Topic: Side stepping nonsense governments, OpenGov can it work? - page 2. (Read 4577 times)

hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
... we are in effect in an environment with no resource limitations.

I really don't understand what you just said here. Clarify.

Look up? We are living in the ultimate free lunch.

Free?

A few questions:

1. Did you think you'd get off so easy?

2. How much untapped and unstudied information and diversity is there in a tropical rainforest here on Earth vs. the atmosphere of Jupiter or the surface of Pluto?

3. How many Atlantic Bluefin Tuna do we have 'free' access to in the Universe today, tomorrow, or 100 years from now.

4. What are the currently most viable interstellar propulsion methods being studied today?

5. What is the cost of antimatter production for a propulsion system using antimatter?

6. Do you believe the Bussard Ramjet is feasible?

7. Are you familiar with the Icarus Project?

8. Have you read Entering Space by Robert Zubrin?

9. Have you read the book Interstellar Migrations and the Human Experience?

10. Do you regularly read the blog Centauri-dreams.org?

11. Do you understand the value of biodiversity?

12. What is the average velocity per year required for animal species to relocate to new habitats in order to remain viable due to climate change, and what are the barriers which prevent such relocation, and what effect will that have on biodiversity, and will we travel to the stars in time for this to be a non-issue?

13. Do you believe that the film Avatar serves as a model for the near term?

14. Do you really believe your last remark carries any substance at all?
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
... we are in effect in an environment with no resource limitations.

I really don't understand what you just said here. Clarify.

Look up? We are living in the ultimate free lunch.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
... we are in effect in an environment with no resource limitations.

I really don't understand what you just said here. Clarify.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
Actually the various ratios would also be voted on.

So I take it that you don't want folk to have an opinion? Or at least that they ought not to be able to state that opinion?

If you have a family for example you have to sometimes take opinions and address local issues, like whose doing the dishes tonight or what channel will the tv be on, and so on. If you think that hundreds of millions of people, many of whom have been to court numerous times, are simply going start working together without being allowed some place to make their opinions heard or to resolve issues then it's going to be very difficult to have this discussion.

I agree with your position that we should all be involved , as I am also, and commend you for that however why not organize that involvement in a way that can be globally and locally effective and efficient. The 51% straw-man you keep mentioning has been addressed in the Bitcoin arena why not in the Political one also?

Additionally not everyone in the world is going to sit back and relax once they've found you have no organized sense of defense or policy are they? Does China agree with your NAP for instance? However a hive mind driven by pure democracy sounds quite powerful and agile to me particularly if those voting understand the idea of doing no harm. We cut out the middle men, who have so obviously been corrupted in many cases, and go directly to the source.

There is an argument relating to the NAP and private defense somewhere, but in a way this proposal could easily make all defense private for the whole country, while the watchful eye of the public could limit it's extent, rather than the case now where a limited few spend huge amounts of our money and resources on many wasteful projects with little oversight.

The NAP can't forget that each of us is sharing this one resource we all live on, it will not silence the opposition and will not serve to remove even a single persons opinion.

I'm not talking about tweaking, this is a major change. For example I personally use so little material I rarely put my garbage out but will this society and political system ever be able to reduce my taxes because of that. I really don't think so, no one has ever been able to change that except perhaps with private removal, but then what about the old lady who can't afford it, isn't the NAP about "do no harm"? Or are you just saying don't actively harm anyone but if they suffer it's not your fault? This proposal is trying to find the system that removes the need for undue trust, which has proven necessary for Bitcoin, while allowing even the most disadvantaged a say and position. Why is this such a bad idea?

Should we for example dismantle the national parks system, since private enterprise could use the space or drill for oil, who gets harmed if we do that? Is hydro-fracking a good thing? It is if it gets us cheaper gas but what about the people whose water is being contaminated. Do we bother helping the UK if Germany invades it again?

Would New Yorkers still be able to drink from 24oz cups if the New Yorkers had actually been asked?

Even some sort of NAP based system needs a process to track difficult issues and spot places where harm is being done, at least I would imagine so? Or is it a magic word that just makes it all work? If so why didn't Bitcoin just work, why do we need all this crazy cryptography?

It's interesting to hear children talk about where meat and vegetables come from, "the supermarket daddy..". Who in your NAP society will talk to the Russians or the Chinese when they decide you've gone weak or negotiate with Mon Santo once they own all the food?

The only way the UK monarchy will ever be deposed is by referendum, this proposal allows that type of referendum to be decided not by an unelected House of Lords but by the decision of the people.  

Interestingly, whether fairly or not, you cite me as wanting to tweak the system but you yourself seem to want to do less to it than that?

You said a lot of good stuff here.

I've been trying to say stuff like this for a long time. NAP has zero unification of community driven unified agendas needed to get us to protect resources which would otherwise be slowly (if not quickly) destroyed because others are selfish, ignorant, or both.

The landscape as a checkerboard of 64 squares:

The checkerboard (composed of black and white squares) where half are white and half are black and one color has value X and the other color has value Y is not valued at 32X + 32Y! This is due to the fact that each square loses value from the edges it shares with a square of a different color.

The landscape or society as a large square with 64 squares where the western half is white and the eastern half is black:

The shared edges between black and white in the second case are less, and thus each colored area has greater value. It's value comes closer to 32X + 32Y.

NAP gravitates to the checkerboard, where each individual is free to either preserve or fuck up his parcel.

All of the above is based on the study of edge effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_effect

Not only does it have consequences related the Earth's natural capital (which ultimately everything, including human society is derived from and supported by), it has effects with regard to urban planning.

Thank you for the link I like the analogy here.

Interestingly the board of the multiverse has no ultimate edges but does have the checkerboard. I mention this since although we are forced to make decisions that ultimately effect everyone and that we must monitor our consumption of resources we are in effect in an environment with no resource limitations.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
Actually the various ratios would also be voted on.

So I take it that you don't want folk to have an opinion? Or at least that they ought not to be able to state that opinion?

If you have a family for example you have to sometimes take opinions and address local issues, like whose doing the dishes tonight or what channel will the tv be on, and so on. If you think that hundreds of millions of people, many of whom have been to court numerous times, are simply going start working together without being allowed some place to make their opinions heard or to resolve issues then it's going to be very difficult to have this discussion.

I agree with your position that we should all be involved , as I am also, and commend you for that however why not organize that involvement in a way that can be globally and locally effective and efficient. The 51% straw-man you keep mentioning has been addressed in the Bitcoin arena why not in the Political one also?

Additionally not everyone in the world is going to sit back and relax once they've found you have no organized sense of defense or policy are they? Does China agree with your NAP for instance? However a hive mind driven by pure democracy sounds quite powerful and agile to me particularly if those voting understand the idea of doing no harm. We cut out the middle men, who have so obviously been corrupted in many cases, and go directly to the source.

There is an argument relating to the NAP and private defense somewhere, but in a way this proposal could easily make all defense private for the whole country, while the watchful eye of the public could limit it's extent, rather than the case now where a limited few spend huge amounts of our money and resources on many wasteful projects with little oversight.

The NAP can't forget that each of us is sharing this one resource we all live on, it will not silence the opposition and will not serve to remove even a single persons opinion.

I'm not talking about tweaking, this is a major change. For example I personally use so little material I rarely put my garbage out but will this society and political system ever be able to reduce my taxes because of that. I really don't think so, no one has ever been able to change that except perhaps with private removal, but then what about the old lady who can't afford it, isn't the NAP about "do no harm"? Or are you just saying don't actively harm anyone but if they suffer it's not your fault? This proposal is trying to find the system that removes the need for undue trust, which has proven necessary for Bitcoin, while allowing even the most disadvantaged a say and position. Why is this such a bad idea?

Should we for example dismantle the national parks system, since private enterprise could use the space or drill for oil, who gets harmed if we do that? Is hydro-fracking a good thing? It is if it gets us cheaper gas but what about the people whose water is being contaminated. Do we bother helping the UK if Germany invades it again?

Would New Yorkers still be able to drink from 24oz cups if the New Yorkers had actually been asked?

Even some sort of NAP based system needs a process to track difficult issues and spot places where harm is being done, at least I would imagine so? Or is it a magic word that just makes it all work? If so why didn't Bitcoin just work, why do we need all this crazy cryptography?

It's interesting to hear children talk about where meat and vegetables come from, "the supermarket daddy..". Who in your NAP society will talk to the Russians or the Chinese when they decide you've gone weak or negotiate with Mon Santo once they own all the food?

The only way the UK monarchy will ever be deposed is by referendum, this proposal allows that type of referendum to be decided not by an unelected House of Lords but by the decision of the people.  

Interestingly, whether fairly or not, you cite me as wanting to tweak the system but you yourself seem to want to do less to it than that?

You said a lot of good stuff here.

I've been trying to say stuff like this for a long time. NAP has zero unification of community driven unified agendas needed to get us to protect resources which would otherwise be slowly (if not quickly) destroyed because others are selfish, ignorant, or both.

The landscape as a checkerboard of 64 squares:

The checkerboard (composed of black and white squares) where half are white and half are black and one color has value X and the other color has value Y is not valued at 32X + 32Y! This is due to the fact that each square loses value from the edges it shares with a square of a different color.

The landscape or society as a large square with 64 squares where the western half is white and the eastern half is black:

The shared edges between black and white in the second case are less, and thus each colored area has greater value. It's value comes closer to 32X + 32Y.

NAP gravitates to the checkerboard, where each individual is free to either preserve or fuck up his parcel.

All of the above is based on the study of edge effects: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_effect

Not only does it have consequences related the Earth's natural capital (which ultimately everything, including human society is derived from and supported by), it has effects with regard to urban planning.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.

Thank you! Since I'm a software developer by trade I tend to see problems through those glasses on the other hand I love Firefly (an old canceled show) and believe no one should have the sky taken from them! Cheesy


I'm a Browncoat myself.
+1
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Thank you! Since I'm a software developer by trade I tend to see problems through those glasses on the other hand I love Firefly (an old canceled show) and believe no one should have the sky taken from them! Cheesy


I'm a Browncoat myself.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
My belief is that highlighting exactly why the old system is failing so epically to those caught in it is part of the solution.


Then you're on the right track with this system. And I applaud you for never attempting to force your decisions on someone else.

Thank you! Since I'm a software developer by trade I tend to see problems through those glasses on the other hand I love Firefly (an old canceled show) and believe no one should have the sky taken from them! Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Inactive
Again, all you are proposing is a change in the decision making process, not the underlying system. The underlying system is a violent one, so every decision will, in the end, come down to the gun in the room.
Worse, such a system will make changes in course easier and faster. One of the biggest problems with many governments in the world is that people can't rely on their laws remaining constant and being enforced over a long period of time. An unpredictable government is generally worse than a consistently oppressive one.

One of the problems States like California have had with their public initiative systems is that a mere 51% vote can basically do whatever it wants. So you'll see things like initiatives prohibiting car pool lanes from being built because 53% of California doesn't car pool.

If 10% of the people really want a law and another 42% prefer having it to not having it, it doesn't matter if 38% are totally screwed by that law. They effectively don't count at all. And sooner or later, you'll be part of that 38% on one law or another. There is no effectively balancing of interests in direct Democracy -- no "you get this, but I get this". Representative Democracy tends to make this problem much less serious -- a politician can't afford to piss off 47% of the people on issue A and a different 43% of the people on issue B because now he has only 30% support.

Direct Democracy is not all good, by any stretch of the imagination.


Yep, and that's one thing that China has going for it.  It's a fair bit more deterministic.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
My belief is that highlighting exactly why the old system is failing so epically to those caught in it is part of the solution.


Then you're on the right track with this system. And I applaud you for never attempting to force your decisions on someone else.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
If you read the thread you'll notice that all I want to do in the early days of this system is to highlight how much the opinions of those who have voted differ from their representatives. Is this a bad idea?

Well, no, it is not, but it doesn't really solve anything, either.

Government is still, at best, a 51% attack.

It would seem that volunteerism is a form of voting, participants vote with their feet which is an idea I like however as with all organic systems efficiency is always an issue. Organic constructs like nerves and neurons came into existence to help with that in nature and this proposal is searching for the equivalent in human society. I'm not suggesting we all become a big brain but instead we decide on a framework and design a system that would allow everyone to be heard, whether anyone acts on that or not is an entirely different topic. The title OpenGov is probably at fault for some of the argument but then again argument is a good thing.

My belief is that highlighting exactly why the old system is failing so epically to those caught in it is part of the solution.

For the record, I'm with you and whether right or wrong I've never voted. 
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
If you read the thread you'll notice that all I want to do in the early days of this system is to highlight how much the opinions of those who have voted differ from their representatives. Is this a bad idea?

Well, no, it is not, but it doesn't really solve anything, either.

Government is still, at best, a 51% attack.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
So let me get this right, it seems that many of you think people shouldn't be allowed to to be part of the decision process that guides and defines their life's because inevitably violence will be the outcome and that we should stick with a few people being allowed to make those decisions for us because an oppressive government is better than one owned by the people they are oppressing.

No, I believe that nobody should be making anyone else's decisions for them.

Can you provide a counter proposal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism

Is it possible to make the process of Volunteering efficient by say listing what everyone can volunteer too?

If you read the thread you'll notice that all I want to do in the early days of this system is to highlight how much the opinions of those who have voted differ from their representatives. Is this a bad idea?

Bitcoin after all is really required in this world, is there a system that embodies the ideas in Bitcoin and that applies them to the interactions that Humans inevitably have to have?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
So let me get this right, it seems that many of you think people shouldn't be allowed to to be part of the decision process that guides and defines their life's because inevitably violence will be the outcome and that we should stick with a few people being allowed to make those decisions for us because an oppressive government is better than one owned by the people they are oppressing.

No, I believe that nobody should be making anyone else's decisions for them.

Can you provide a counter proposal?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
So let me get this right, it seems that many of you think people shouldn't be allowed to to be part of the decision process that guides and defines their life's because inevitably violence will be the outcome and that we should stick with a few people being allowed to make those decisions for us because an oppressive government is better than one owned by the people they are oppressing.

No, I believe that nobody should be making anyone else's decisions for them.

What if those decisions effect other people?

I take it you will never agree that you and other people may at some point need to make decisions in a shared environment involving shared resources or shared outcome?

I imagine that makes you very unpopular when trying to decide what movie to watch with your friends of a weekend?  Huh
 
Can you provide a counter proposal?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
So let me get this right, it seems that many of you think people shouldn't be allowed to to be part of the decision process that guides and defines their life's because inevitably violence will be the outcome and that we should stick with a few people being allowed to make those decisions for us because an oppressive government is better than one owned by the people they are oppressing.

No, I believe that nobody should be making anyone else's decisions for them.
sr. member
Activity: 283
Merit: 250
Making a better tomorrow, tomorrow.
So let me get this right, it seems that many of you think people shouldn't be allowed to to be part of the decision process that guides and defines their life's because inevitably violence will be the outcome and that we should stick with a few people being allowed to make those decisions for us because an oppressive government is better than one owned by the people they are oppressing?

Isn't this the exact antithesis of the Bitcoin idea?

hero member
Activity: 717
Merit: 501
It you could somehow have a coin where the winner of a digital election gets funding for a political campaign we actually might send some candidates to congress.

1. Johnson
2. Simpson
3. Hanks
4. Ruth
5. Lemmon

Lemmon wins you get all the transaction money for year 2015.  Congratulations you have won %3,565,555 election coins worth about $5,000,000 good luck on your campaign.  That is how you send anarcho-capitalists to win.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
Again, all you are proposing is a change in the decision making process, not the underlying system. The underlying system is a violent one, so every decision will, in the end, come down to the gun in the room.
Worse, such a system will make changes in course easier and faster. One of the biggest problems with many governments in the world is that people can't rely on their laws remaining constant and being enforced over a long period of time. An unpredictable government is generally worse than a consistently oppressive one.

One of the problems States like California have had with their public initiative systems is that a mere 51% vote can basically do whatever it wants. So you'll see things like initiatives prohibiting car pool lanes from being built because 53% of California doesn't car pool.

If 10% of the people really want a law and another 42% prefer having it to not having it, it doesn't matter if 38% are totally screwed by that law. They effectively don't count at all. And sooner or later, you'll be part of that 38% on one law or another. There is no effectively balancing of interests in direct Democracy -- no "you get this, but I get this". Representative Democracy tends to make this problem much less serious -- a politician can't afford to piss off 47% of the people on issue A and a different 43% of the people on issue B because now he has only 30% support.

Direct Democracy is not all good, by any stretch of the imagination.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
If your government would enforce the use of arms to prevent the import of chairs from Russia then that is just an additional reason why this proposal is so important, imagine if you were the one in the political position to make that decision my nay vote would be meaningless without it.

But it's not my government. It's yours. You haven't proposed a change in the mechanism of enforcement, only in the decision making process. So let me answer for you. If the vote came down that 51% of the populace were in favor of imposing a tariff on Chairs imported from Siberia, it would be enforced, violently, if need be.

I say your government since you keep forcing words into my argument and answering for me.

Remembering that the entire country gets to vote on every issue I should imagine the answer to that would be no since it really doesn't seem like an issue worth wasting troop resources or another world war on and would surely end up as some sort of court settlement. I hardly imagine many people voting yes on the docket to "Should we attack Russia because they are flooding the market with cheap chairs."?

Maybe you need to check the definition on "tariff". It is a tax imposed on importing an item. It's not "attack the importing country", it's "force the people importing chairs to pay us for the privilege". Bringing stuff in without paying the tariff is called "smuggling". Would you enforce your tariff, if it was voted by 51% of the people, by stopping smugglers? If so, how do you propose to do that non-violently?

Why are you so desparte to resort to violence in your ideas? When you say "if need be" do you somehow expect the final result of every single discussion to come down to weapons and bullets?


Again, all you are proposing is a change in the decision making process, not the underlying system. The underlying system is a violent one, so every decision will, in the end, come down to the gun in the room.
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