Signature mixers question | Bitcointalksearch.org

zasad@

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Quote from: takuma sato on January 16, 2024, 10:39:07 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on January 10, 2024, 11:21:14 AM

Quote from: dansus021 on January 09, 2024, 09:30:13 PM

Quote from: Lucius on December 23, 2023, 12:48:07 PM

I'm supposed to do a report every time I get paid - which means every week, which is completely insane. Therefore, if someone makes such an insane request, I think we can agree that paying taxes on the earnings from signature campaigns is by no means an option for people in my situation.

Given that I live in an extremely corrupt country where in the last 8 years about 30 ministers have been fired or resigned due to corrupt actions, believe me I sleep peacefully when I know that my money did not go into their pockets.

What is that real you need to file a report every time you get paid, here in my country Just the same as zasad@ that you need to fill in a year.
What country do you live in bro? just curious Cheesy

and maybe if I were Op I would not going to record any money that comes from the mixer neither from signature or my personal fund since the mixer in my opinion is kinda in a grey area at least for the regulator. so better opt-out.

I understand that tax authorities in different countries are improving tax collection, but I don’t think that everything is so serious that they would waste resources on users who earn about $100 a week. I think that the spent resources of the tax authorities will not pay off. If my tax office required me to report for each payment, then I would receive bitcoins for the subscription campaign to an unofficial address, and then every quarter or year I would transfer bitcoins through an exchange for Monero from the unofficial address to the official one and pay taxes.
But sometimes it is better not to report coins, and you will not be asked questions.

You are only overcomplicating things isn't? Since you are sending your signature campaign earnings throught Monero, and then into an exchange, you are just going to get your dox attached to Monero transactions, and exchanges are increasingly more anti privacy coins, and I suspect governments wouldn't be a fan as well. So that really does not fix anything. Once you cash out, either your bank or your government could ask for proof of funds as well. Not really a solution imo. Either you don't report it, or you try to be as clear as possible if you report it. The problem is, if you don't report it, then what do you do with the coins? You cannot barely do anything with crypto if you don't convert it to fiat anyway.

In my country there is no problem exchanging cryptocurrencies for cash.
If you use a bank, you can legally transfer money to a self-employed account and pay 4% tax. There are limits of $26,000 per year, but according to the law, the tax office does not have the right to conduct audits and I am not required to keep accounting records.
If you use the exchange, then without KYC and this is more for the mixer function.

takuma sato

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Quote from: zasad@ on January 10, 2024, 11:21:14 AM

Quote from: dansus021 on January 09, 2024, 09:30:13 PM

Quote from: Lucius on December 23, 2023, 12:48:07 PM

I'm supposed to do a report every time I get paid - which means every week, which is completely insane. Therefore, if someone makes such an insane request, I think we can agree that paying taxes on the earnings from signature campaigns is by no means an option for people in my situation.

Given that I live in an extremely corrupt country where in the last 8 years about 30 ministers have been fired or resigned due to corrupt actions, believe me I sleep peacefully when I know that my money did not go into their pockets.

What is that real you need to file a report every time you get paid, here in my country Just the same as zasad@ that you need to fill in a year.
What country do you live in bro? just curious Cheesy

and maybe if I were Op I would not going to record any money that comes from the mixer neither from signature or my personal fund since the mixer in my opinion is kinda in a grey area at least for the regulator. so better opt-out.

I understand that tax authorities in different countries are improving tax collection, but I don’t think that everything is so serious that they would waste resources on users who earn about $100 a week. I think that the spent resources of the tax authorities will not pay off. If my tax office required me to report for each payment, then I would receive bitcoins for the subscription campaign to an unofficial address, and then every quarter or year I would transfer bitcoins through an exchange for Monero from the unofficial address to the official one and pay taxes.
But sometimes it is better not to report coins, and you will not be asked questions.

You are only overcomplicating things isn't? Since you are sending your signature campaign earnings throught Monero, and then into an exchange, you are just going to get your dox attached to Monero transactions, and exchanges are increasingly more anti privacy coins, and I suspect governments wouldn't be a fan as well. So that really does not fix anything. Once you cash out, either your bank or your government could ask for proof of funds as well. Not really a solution imo. Either you don't report it, or you try to be as clear as possible if you report it. The problem is, if you don't report it, then what do you do with the coins? You cannot barely do anything with crypto if you don't convert it to fiat anyway.

zasad@

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Quote from: takuma sato on January 12, 2024, 09:56:39 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on January 11, 2024, 05:51:04 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on January 11, 2024, 01:01:22 AM

Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

I will upset you, but you should know that as soon as you transfer even the "whitest coins" to the exchange, it will not save you from exchange blocking.
My buddy transferred 1-2 thousand coins to the exchange from one address, there were no questions from the exchange, but when he transferred 40000 dollars worth of coins, he immediately got blocked.
He lost this money because his address has a lot of transactions, where he can not explain the reasons.
If you decide to take such a step, you should have a wallet where you can give an explanation for each transaction, even if it was several years ago.

That's pretty crazy. Was it Coinbase? I've heard Coinbase is insanely strict nowadays, to the point is just nonviable to deposit any coins that don't come from Coinbase itself, as in back and forth from Coinbase into your wallet back to Coinbase is ok, but anything else adds additional steps of complexity that may lock you out of the coins until you deliver some context. But with a lawyer you may find a solution. The real problem here would be with the taxman. Because most people will not be able to explain every satoshi ever on his wallet, so these are the ones that are expert in screwing innocent people up that just obtained some coins here and there along the years, then you want to cash out and they treat you like you are El Chapo or something.

No, this is not Coinbase. But I heard dozens of such stories and the exchanges were different. A small number of crypto users were able to unlock their coins, but they were helped not by lawyers, but by YouTube bloggers with a large number of subscribers. The exchange is not afraid of lawyers, the exchange is afraid of losing its reputation. But this only helped those people who had everything in order with their documents and tax returns. If you don't have tax returns and documented proof of the legality of your coins, then no one will help you.

takuma sato

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Quote from: zasad@ on January 11, 2024, 05:51:04 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on January 11, 2024, 01:01:22 AM

Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

I will upset you, but you should know that as soon as you transfer even the "whitest coins" to the exchange, it will not save you from exchange blocking.
My buddy transferred 1-2 thousand coins to the exchange from one address, there were no questions from the exchange, but when he transferred 40000 dollars worth of coins, he immediately got blocked.
He lost this money because his address has a lot of transactions, where he can not explain the reasons.
If you decide to take such a step, you should have a wallet where you can give an explanation for each transaction, even if it was several years ago.

That's pretty crazy. Was it Coinbase? I've heard Coinbase is insanely strict nowadays, to the point is just nonviable to deposit any coins that don't come from Coinbase itself, as in back and forth from Coinbase into your wallet back to Coinbase is ok, but anything else adds additional steps of complexity that may lock you out of the coins until you deliver some context. But with a lawyer you may find a solution. The real problem here would be with the taxman. Because most people will not be able to explain every satoshi ever on his wallet, so these are the ones that are expert in screwing innocent people up that just obtained some coins here and there along the years, then you want to cash out and they treat you like you are El Chapo or something.

zasad@

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Quote from: takuma sato on January 11, 2024, 01:01:22 AM

Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

I will upset you, but you should know that as soon as you transfer even the "whitest coins" to the exchange, it will not save you from exchange blocking.
My buddy transferred 1-2 thousand coins to the exchange from one address, there were no questions from the exchange, but when he transferred 40000 dollars worth of coins, he immediately got blocked.
He lost this money because his address has a lot of transactions, where he can not explain the reasons.
If you decide to take such a step, you should have a wallet where you can give an explanation for each transaction, even if it was several years ago.

takuma sato

sr. member

Activity: 281

Merit: 408

Quote from: LoyceV on December 26, 2023, 08:30:56 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on December 25, 2023, 10:44:43 PM

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange

Give me the official definition of tainted coins. I'll help you: it doesn't exist. There are several companies trying to sell the idea of taint, but it only exists when you believe it. And I don't believe it.
Most banknotes contain traces of cocaine, and that doesn't matter. Fungibility means all banknotes are equal. The same applies to Bitcoin. And just like banks don't want to take banknotes from criminals, exchanges don't want to take Bitcoins from criminals. If you're not a criminal, you'll be able to prove you legally earned those Bitcoins. And you should be okay.

Quote

it activates an alarm next to your dox. Not a great situation to be at.

True, it's annoying having to deal with this.

It doesn't really matter we believe in or not isn't it. What matters is the consequences of having said alarm to get triggered once you deposit your coins into an exchange next to your full name, address and so on. Now you are screwed. This is the problem. One doesn't know who is paying you, where the coins come from. Only coins that come from a regulated exchange or are freshly mined I would consider safe to deposit into an exchange.

If someone pays you and these enable some sort of a trigger when you go into an exchange and deposit them, now you are audited, and have a case. You have to prove you are innocent. The authorities hate people that deal with cryptos by default, and now you have to prove to them that you didn't sell any drugs for them or something, that you just were part of an advertiser campaign and you are just chilling talking on a forum, but the thing is, you don't want to be involved into such situation. You said the phrase *should* be okay. Keyword should. You never know so I would prefer not to.

zasad@

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Quote from: dansus021 on January 09, 2024, 09:30:13 PM

Quote from: Lucius on December 23, 2023, 12:48:07 PM

I'm supposed to do a report every time I get paid - which means every week, which is completely insane. Therefore, if someone makes such an insane request, I think we can agree that paying taxes on the earnings from signature campaigns is by no means an option for people in my situation.

Given that I live in an extremely corrupt country where in the last 8 years about 30 ministers have been fired or resigned due to corrupt actions, believe me I sleep peacefully when I know that my money did not go into their pockets.

What is that real you need to file a report every time you get paid, here in my country Just the same as zasad@ that you need to fill in a year.
What country do you live in bro? just curious Cheesy

and maybe if I were Op I would not going to record any money that comes from the mixer neither from signature or my personal fund since the mixer in my opinion is kinda in a grey area at least for the regulator. so better opt-out.

I understand that tax authorities in different countries are improving tax collection, but I don’t think that everything is so serious that they would waste resources on users who earn about $100 a week. I think that the spent resources of the tax authorities will not pay off. If my tax office required me to report for each payment, then I would receive bitcoins for the subscription campaign to an unofficial address, and then every quarter or year I would transfer bitcoins through an exchange for Monero from the unofficial address to the official one and pay taxes.
But sometimes it is better not to report coins, and you will not be asked questions.

dansus021

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Quote from: Lucius on December 23, 2023, 12:48:07 PM

I'm supposed to do a report every time I get paid - which means every week, which is completely insane. Therefore, if someone makes such an insane request, I think we can agree that paying taxes on the earnings from signature campaigns is by no means an option for people in my situation.

Given that I live in an extremely corrupt country where in the last 8 years about 30 ministers have been fired or resigned due to corrupt actions, believe me I sleep peacefully when I know that my money did not go into their pockets.

What is that real you need to file a report every time you get paid, here in my country Just the same as zasad@ that you need to fill in a year.
What country do you live in bro? just curious Cheesy

and maybe if I were Op I would not going to record any money that comes from the mixer neither from signature or my personal fund since the mixer in my opinion is kinda in a grey area at least for the regulator. so better opt-out.

zasad@

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Quote from: Lucius on December 29, 2023, 11:33:03 AM

Quote from: zasad@ on December 29, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

~snip~
In Russia there are no criminal penalties for people who open a bank account and sell their bank cards.
Such a set with a SIM card costs $50-100, but if you only withdraw cash from an ATM, then blocking can happen very quickly, after withdrawing 2-5 thousand dollars.

One member of the forum offers such "No KYC cards" at a price of around 1000 EUR per year of use, and it seems to be quite a lucrative business. Of course, there are some rules for using the card so that it would not be blocked. However, regardless of the fact that the sale of bank cards is not punishable in Russia, I wonder who is responsible if such a card is involved in a criminal offense - the owner of the card or the one who actually uses it?

If this bank card is involved in petty fraud or cash-out or a minor crime, then it all depends on what testimony the person who sells the bank card will give. If he says that he sold the card to an unknown person, hiding it in the specified place. And the reason was an acute financial need, and there was not enough money for food, then the seller will not have criminal and administrative liability, except for a red mark in the bank.

But if this bank card is involved in a serious crime, such as terrorism, extremism, then the seller may have very big problems, even a long criminal sentence. Such criminal cases are closed and classified, so it is difficult to say the exact result.

Lucius

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Quote from: zasad@ on December 29, 2023, 09:12:21 AM

~snip~
In Russia there are no criminal penalties for people who open a bank account and sell their bank cards.
Such a set with a SIM card costs $50-100, but if you only withdraw cash from an ATM, then blocking can happen very quickly, after withdrawing 2-5 thousand dollars.

One member of the forum offers such "No KYC cards" at a price of around 1000 EUR per year of use, and it seems to be quite a lucrative business. Of course, there are some rules for using the card so that it would not be blocked. However, regardless of the fact that the sale of bank cards is not punishable in Russia, I wonder who is responsible if such a card is involved in a criminal offense - the owner of the card or the one who actually uses it?

zasad@

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 28, 2023, 01:33:28 PM

Quote from: zasad@ on December 28, 2023, 08:02:57 AM

I use centralized exchanges without KYC, but I transfer a few coins there at a time so that I can answer any request: “Go to hell.”

Do you use those exchanges for fiat transfers? In that case they'll know your bank account details.

Not using. For P2P transfers, KYC is required, but for trading cryptocurrencies, KYC is not needed.

In Russia there are no criminal penalties for people who open a bank account and sell their bank cards.
Such a set with a SIM card costs $50-100, but if you only withdraw cash from an ATM, then blocking can happen very quickly, after withdrawing 2-5 thousand dollars.

LoyceV

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Quote from: zasad@ on December 28, 2023, 08:02:57 AM

I use centralized exchanges without KYC, but I transfer a few coins there at a time so that I can answer any request: “Go to hell.”

Do you use those exchanges for fiat transfers? In that case they'll know your bank account details.

zasad@

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 28, 2023, 02:34:45 AM

Quote from: zasad@ on December 27, 2023, 07:44:11 AM

Have you ever encountered the compliance procedure of crypto exchanges?

Yes.

Quote

Do you know how many basic questions you will be asked at the beginning and how many additional ones?

I got one question. In short: "explain the origin".

Quote

This procedure can only be completed if the coins were purchased legally on a large exchange; in other cases this is very difficult to do.

It wasn't difficult, but it's annoying. I hate how governments force companies to spy on customers.

I use centralized exchanges without KYC, but I transfer a few coins there at a time so that I can answer any request: “Go to hell.”

Quote from: NotATether on December 28, 2023, 02:39:24 AM

You don't pay taxes until you "cash out" your bitcoins into the appropriate fiat currency.

So Bitcoin transactions don't have to be declared.

Deposits and withdrawals do have to be declared (i.e. how much BTC you bought and sold).

Don't you think that this is an intermediate stage?
If Bitcoin becomes a global cryptocurrency, then permits or licenses will be required for its storage, or citizens will be allowed to store Bitcoins only in custodial bank wallets.

LoyceV

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Quote from: NotATether on December 28, 2023, 02:39:24 AM

You don't pay taxes until you "cash out" your bitcoins into the appropriate fiat currency.

So Bitcoin transactions don't have to be declared.

That depends on where you live. Here, all earnings must be reported, and there's an annual wealth tax. I really live in the wrong country Sad

Quote

Deposits and withdrawals do have to be declared (i.e. how much BTC you bought and sold).

We don't have a capital gains tax, so I don't have to report any of this.

NotATether

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You don't pay taxes until you "cash out" your bitcoins into the appropriate fiat currency.

So Bitcoin transactions don't have to be declared.

Deposits and withdrawals do have to be declared (i.e. how much BTC you bought and sold).

LoyceV

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Quote from: zasad@ on December 27, 2023, 07:44:11 AM

Have you ever encountered the compliance procedure of crypto exchanges?

Yes.

Quote

Do you know how many basic questions you will be asked at the beginning and how many additional ones?

I got one question. In short: "explain the origin".

Quote

This procedure can only be completed if the coins were purchased legally on a large exchange; in other cases this is very difficult to do.

It wasn't difficult, but it's annoying. I hate how governments force companies to spy on customers.

zasad@

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 26, 2023, 08:30:56 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on December 25, 2023, 10:44:43 PM

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange

Give me the official definition of tainted coins. I'll help you: it doesn't exist. There are several companies trying to sell the idea of taint, but it only exists when you believe it. And I don't believe it.
Most banknotes contain traces of cocaine, and that doesn't matter. Fungibility means all banknotes are equal. The same applies to Bitcoin. And just like banks don't want to take banknotes from criminals, exchanges don't want to take Bitcoins from criminals. If you're not a criminal, you'll be able to prove you legally earned those Bitcoins. And you should be okay.

Have you ever encountered the compliance procedure of crypto exchanges?
Do you know how many basic questions you will be asked at the beginning and how many additional ones?
This procedure can only be completed if the coins were purchased legally on a large exchange; in other cases this is very difficult to do.

yhiaali3

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For me, the good thing is that there are no laws related to Bitcoin or mixers yet. The government in my country completely ignores Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and there are no regulatory laws, so there is no concern about taxes or the like.

Personally, I receive payment from mixer campaigns to the wallet and then convert it to local currency in my country through a local intermediary and therefore I do not have any problem with the IRS, basically they do not know anything about my work.

LoyceV

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Quote from: takuma sato on December 25, 2023, 10:44:43 PM

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange

Give me the official definition of tainted coins. I'll help you: it doesn't exist. There are several companies trying to sell the idea of taint, but it only exists when you believe it. And I don't believe it.
Most banknotes contain traces of cocaine, and that doesn't matter. Fungibility means all banknotes are equal. The same applies to Bitcoin. And just like banks don't want to take banknotes from criminals, exchanges don't want to take Bitcoins from criminals. If you're not a criminal, you'll be able to prove you legally earned those Bitcoins. And you should be okay.

Quote

it activates an alarm next to your dox. Not a great situation to be at.

True, it's annoying having to deal with this.

takuma sato

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Quote from: LoyceV on December 25, 2023, 04:05:20 AM

Quote from: takuma sato on December 24, 2023, 11:36:59 PM

You can keep records taking screenshots, and archiving webpages too I guess.

I've also made private deals. I don't see a problem with that for "my" taxman.

Quote from: takuma sato on December 24, 2023, 11:36:59 PM

There's also the direct risk of depositing coins that came from sig campaign earnings into an exchange, or any mixed amounts for that matter.

That's true. The exchange may ask questions, just like my bank asked questions. My bank doesn't like that any more than I do (and spying on their customers is expensive), but governments demands them to do so.

Quote from: takuma sato on December 25, 2023, 12:39:25 AM

Why is it that some people assume everyone is under IRS jurisdiction?

It might help if you start by sharing which jurisdiction you live in. If your government can criminalize things retroactively, you have other things to worry about than just signature earnings.

Quote

This problem applies under any jurisdiction as long as you use KYC exchanges with enough liquidity to matter.

My bank gets a lot more nervous if I'd use P2P trading instead of an established exchange. That would mean I have financial transactions with people I don't know.

Im on a jurisdiction that's considered first world, so you would expect a stable set of rules whose cannot change arbitrarily and to not be applied retroactively, however, I think it's a good principle to never trust the government and lawmakers in general when it comes to crypto, they hate it by default and they have some of the best lawyers out there trained to make your life miserable if they want to. Even if you managed to win a case, the amount of stress and money spend fighting them may wreck you financially in the process. So I would like to avoid these situations.

You report your taxes, but what do you do if the address that pays you had tainted coins, and once you deposit them on an exchange, it activates an alarm next to your dox. Not a great situation to be at. This is the main problem I believe, or at least the first one you want to solve, because this is automated. The government or bank or both may or not ask about context of the money, but if the coins are tainted and you deposit them, it will be guaranteed that you'll face some problems there.

Topic: Signature mixers question (Read 570 times)