Silverfuturist on bitcoin. - page 2.

relative

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Quote from: bitanarchy on June 06, 2011, 02:00:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgYamdGLuA4

Quite sad that he is also going for the Ponzi scheme thing... actually it is an insult to all the early adopters, who are entrepreneurs!

I didnt watch the video, but bitcoin has parts of a ponzi scheme, namely the graph of money creation.

why the rate of money creation would be the biggest at the beginning, when it was obvious there would be no demand, is beyond me. money creation should have started slowly, then picked up when wider adoption was expected for a couple of years and then decline.
when other monetary systems were started they didnt distribute 10 mil each to 100 people.
the money supply was increased when the currency got more widely used (for example: more countries were added to the eurozone).

now I understand you can't manage this in the same way with bitcoin because there is no central authority, but the graph should have been shaped differently.

bitcola

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Quote from: andes on June 20, 2011, 03:14:03 AM

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 03:10:55 AM

Gold has physical properties that give it value. BTC has none of these physical properties.

This is BS. Value is in the mind of people. By your standards music has no value because its just information.

Do you know what true value is? The average layman does not.

We are talking monetary value here, not just any old value.

For music, the intellectual property has value. You can sell the IP or you can use it to manufacture records that will sell.

Now let me ask again, where is the value in a bitcoin? Mining is no different to printing money and we have all seen what happens to economies that print money. They suffer for it.

noedaRDH

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Finding Satoshi

Quote from: andes on June 20, 2011, 02:58:38 AM

I discovered that both of the most aggressive anti-bitcoin guys on youtube: rawdog and theweeklytelegram delete their past videos/accounts every couple of weeks or months, so they cannot be held accountable.

The weeklytelegram deleted all his videos about 4 weeks ago, then he made a couple of videos bashing bitcoin, then he deleted all his videos again last week, then he made a new video bashing bitcoin today.

Rawdog deleted his account a couple of weeks ago (deleting all his videos), and created a new one a couple of weeks ago.

How would you call this kind of public people that pathologically "clean their digital past" in a regular manner? Quite strange to me... Why being a public person and destroying your credibility this way?

Should we call them "digital amnesiacs?", "cyber Schizophreniacs?".... hmmm...

The asshole that is "weeklytelegram" has such an annoying nasally voice. I don't see how bitcoins invade into his territory. They're probably the same people who dismissed the idea of the internet when that was first introduced.

bitrebel

sr. member

Activity: 364

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Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 03:10:55 AM

Quote from: BitVapes on June 20, 2011, 02:56:41 AM

it is the properties of gold that back it up. scarce, doesn't tarnish, fungible, etc

similarly, it is the properties of bitcoin that back up its value

Gold has physical properties that give it value. BTC has none of these physical properties.

Especially when it's stuffed full of Tungsten. lol

terryfkwit

newbie

Activity: 24

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Bitcon is the most honest and transparent Ponzi scheme ever....
i am bullish bitcoin and silver and am prepared to play a long long game on both.. no contradictions here at all....
It is not an either or situation they will both play out at different rates ... gold ,silver and bitcoins my definition of a balanced portfolio ... oh and throw in a few miners....

andes

jr. member

Activity: 42

Merit: 2

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 03:10:55 AM

Quote from: BitVapes on June 20, 2011, 02:56:41 AM

it is the properties of gold that back it up. scarce, doesn't tarnish, fungible, etc

similarly, it is the properties of bitcoin that back up its value

Gold has physical properties that give it value. BTC has none of these physical properties.

This is BS. Value is in the mind of people. By your standards music has no value because its just information.

bitcola

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: BitVapes on June 20, 2011, 02:56:41 AM

it is the properties of gold that back it up. scarce, doesn't tarnish, fungible, etc

similarly, it is the properties of bitcoin that back up its value

Gold has physical properties that give it value. BTC has none of these physical properties.

andes

jr. member

Activity: 42

Merit: 2

.

andes

jr. member

Activity: 42

Merit: 2

I discovered that both of the most aggressive anti-bitcoin guys on youtube: rawdog and theweeklytelegram delete their past videos/accounts every couple of weeks or months, so they cannot be held accountable.

The weeklytelegram deleted all his videos about 4 weeks ago, then he made a couple of videos bashing bitcoin, then he deleted all his videos again last week, then he made a new video bashing bitcoin today.

Rawdog deleted his account a couple of weeks ago (deleting all his videos), and created a new one a couple of weeks ago.

How would you call this kind of public people that pathologically "clean their digital past" in a regular manner? Quite strange to me... Why being a public person and destroying your credibility this way?

Should we call them "digital amnesiacs?", "cyber Schizophreniacs?".... hmmm...

BitVapes

full member

Activity: 140

Merit: 100

BitVapes.com

Quote from: andes on June 20, 2011, 02:53:26 AM

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 02:15:25 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You effectively said that major currencies like EUR and $ are ponzis. Good job.

A currency has to be backed by "something", no matter how weak it is.

Ha ha! Then tell me what backs gold.

it is the properties of gold that back it up. scarce, doesn't tarnish, fungible, etc

similarly, it is the properties of bitcoin that back up its value

andes

jr. member

Activity: 42

Merit: 2

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 02:15:25 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You effectively said that major currencies like EUR and $ are ponzis. Good job.

What backing does BTC have? Absolutely zilch.

A currency has to be backed by "something", no matter how weak it is.

Ha ha! Then tell me what backs gold.

QuantumMechanic

member

Activity: 110

Merit: 19

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 02:20:03 AM

What makes BTC so special against these 9,999 other currencies?

Its established network of users. Just like gold's, except much smaller and less established.

noedaRDH

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Finding Satoshi

Not going to take any advice from a jittery chicken hoarder living out in the woods who probably kicks his own computer.

libertyzeal

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 02:20:03 AM

Quote from: libertyzeal on June 20, 2011, 01:59:57 AM

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 01:39:15 AM

Miners don't create wealth. They print money. They are simply limited by algorithms but it is still the printing of money.

A crucial, critical misunderstanding here. Miners compute blocks that increase the block chain, the block chain is what "secures" the currency from fraudulent transactions, this work re-enforces the value of the currency, "printing money" does the opposite, it debases the value of a currency.. The security of the block chain has value (ie wealth).. it not only protects the bitcoin network from fraud, it also makes it something very hard to compete with, since any new digital currency will have to start from scratch and play catchup.

Can't you see the flaw now? What makes BTC so special against these 9,999 other currencies? Nothing at all.

Momentum, if it was so easy, then why isn't anyone else doing it, why aren't you doing? You can't just cobble together a P2P network and have something more trusted, secure, and globally recognized as easy as you can brush your teeth.

libertyzeal

newbie

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Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 02:15:25 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

You effectively said that major currencies like EUR and $ are ponzis. Good job.

What backing does BTC have? Absolutely zilch.

It's backed by the block chain. Right now the computational power to crack the block chain is more costly than any monetary benefits you'd get from corrupting it. Sure, someone else could create a digital currency, but it's not going to be secured initially, and it takes a lot of work to get it there.

The dollar and other fiat currencies are backed by governments..that's pretty safe right, cause we all know that no governments are ever overthrown or debase their currencies out of existence, right? No risk here..

bitcola

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: libertyzeal on June 20, 2011, 01:59:57 AM

Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 01:39:15 AM

Miners don't create wealth. They print money. They are simply limited by algorithms but it is still the printing of money.

A crucial, critical misunderstanding here. Miners compute blocks that increase the block chain, the block chain is what "secures" the currency from fraudulent transactions, this work re-enforces the value of the currency, "printing money" does the opposite, it debases the value of a currency.. The security of the block chain has value (ie wealth).. it not only protects the bitcoin network from fraud, it also makes it something very hard to compete with, since any new digital currency will have to start from scratch and play catchup.

Security has value to those who use it but this is not real value, comparable to holding precious metals, commodities or real currency. It is value only to those who participate in the scheme.

You are right about printing money. It debases the value of the currency. And the mining aspect of bitcoins is essentially what will lead to its ultimate downfall.

Just because mining is limited by an algorithm, just because mining brings some benefits - doesn't mean that the concept is not fundamentally flawed. If BTC was the only virtual currency in existence in this manner, ever, then on trust alone it might work.

However, there is nothing stopping others creating 10,000 other virtual currencies. Imagine if you did that? Heck, why not create 10 million virtual currencies and give 600 people each on the planet the opportunity to mine too? Then we can ALL get rich Roll Eyes

Can't you see the flaw now? What makes BTC so special against these 9,999 other currencies? Nothing at all.

bitcola

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Activity: 210

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Quote from: ?? on ??

You effectively said that major currencies like EUR and $ are ponzis. Good job.

Non-fiat money is ultimately doomed. Yes, they are ponzis. Just look at how government can print them out ad infinitum. But at least they have some backing in terms of government guarantees.

What backing does BTC have? Absolutely zilch.

Right now, it has a lot of trust among those who use it. But if 10,000 new virtual currencies can get created, each with their own early adopters who profit from mining, what happens then? It all breaks down. People realise that there is zero intrinsic value in bitcoins.

A currency has to be backed by "something", no matter how weak it is.

libertyzeal

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Quote from: bitcola on June 20, 2011, 01:39:15 AM

Miners don't create wealth. They print money. They are simply limited by algorithms but it is still the printing of money.

A crucial, critical misunderstanding here. Miners compute blocks that increase the block chain, the block chain is what "secures" the currency from fraudulent transactions, this work re-enforces the value of the currency, "printing money" does the opposite, it debases the value of a currency.. The security of the block chain has value (ie wealth).. it not only protects the bitcoin network from fraud, it also makes it something very hard to compete with, since any new digital currency will have to start from scratch and play catchup.

bitcola

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Every time someone says that it is ponzi due to early adopters, the BTC proponents come out with "but you get that with companies".

Companies are not the same thing. They don't create currency out of nowhere. They redistribute existing wealth.

Miners don't create wealth. They print money. They are simply limited by algorithms but it is still the printing of money.

So what happens when there are one thousand variants of bitcoin? Then what? 1,000 printed currencies backed by nothing.

People are not happy with early adopters making money out of printing money. That will be a major obstacle to them supporting this currency. And when they realise that BTC is not the one and only possible virtual currency (it might be survivable if it were, despite being backed on nothing) then the value of BTC will dilute and become worthless.

Effectively, it IS ponzi, because it is backed on nothing. Corporations are NOT backed on nothing so will Bitcoin proponents PLEASE think for themselves for once and quit quoting the FAQ of the creator. You are in self-denial.

andes

jr. member

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Merit: 2

And a centered response to the last video

Bitcoin crash? No, just a company hacked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pCew9YF5Sk&feature=channel_video_title

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