Topic: Single Phase and Three Phase Power -amp Question (Read 1624 times)

Allright ASSHOLE I tried to be nice but you asked for it.

 Your setup is NOT LEGAL per your own description.
 BLATANT VIOLATION of the NEC, which most US jurisdictions have adopted as LAW (sometimes with additional restrictions) - and the very few areas that have not adopted the NEC have adopted an alternate standard that is very similar.

 Putting a splice in a box DOES NOT make it code compliant - there's more to it than that.

 It is very questionable about SAFE as well - still waiting to see where provision for strain relief is at, that IN AND OF ITSELF makes your setup unsafe AND a violation of Code.

 It's not defamation when FACTS are being stated.

 
 I'm not going to go into the "not covered wiring" issue, that's a point I personally think the Code is a bit excessively anal about - but it IS another violation.

 Be happy the guy I learned to be an Electrician under has not seen your setup or heard your "instructor" say is OK - that instructor would be getting DECERTIFIED FOR INCOMPETANCE in no time flat.
 Unless he WATCHED you making the splices, there is no way he has ANY CLUE if they are properly done or if they have any potential to be safe - and a LINEMAN should understand the need for stress relief better than I DO.


 I never said anything about "high voltage" - and by LINEMAN standards I agree that a 220v setup is low power - but by the standards of connections where electrical tape gets used, it's HIGH power.


 If you are in a building/home with a substantial space between it and other structures, then it might be justifiable to claim it's "your risk" - but if you are in space in a "shared" building/condo/townhouse/apartment/whatever or you are in a crowded area with only small spaces between structures, it is NOT just "your risk".

Please don't slander or defame my PERFECTLY SAFE AND LEGAL WIRING SET-UP AND SPLICES..
I have withdrawn recommending my PERFECTLY SAFE AND LEGAL METHOD.
My splices are SAFE AND LEGAL the only thing that prevents them from being perfectly compliant with code is they should be in a box...
However that makes them more difficult to check...which I DO every day.

They are FINE and will last damn near forever...many many years...

SO SAYS MY CERTIFIED INDUSTRIAL HIGH VOLTAGE SPLICE QUALIFIED LINEMAN/ELECTRICIAN
who TEACHES THIS COURSE
http://www.algonquincollege.com/acce/program/powerline-technician/

FYI 220v is considered LOW VOLTAGE.
My BUDDY the CERTIFIED INDUSTRIAL HIGH VOLTAGE SPLICE QUALIFIED LINEMAN/ELECTRICIAN
He took two seconds to look at it and said..you're fine...(Which I already knew) .. and we went for a beer.


And Bottom line is THEY ARE MINE....MY RESPONSIBILITY... MY PROPERTY....MY RIGHT..MY RISK.(Which is ZERO)

 A PROPERLY done splice, with PROPER stress relief, won't get loose in less than decades - but they WILL corrode, causing increased resistance and a tendancy to overheat, in a LOT shorter time a lot of the time even when PROPERLY done.
 Most splices are NOT properly done though - Philopolymath's pictures show absolutely ZERO provision for stress relief, even if the splice itself was well done.

 Electrical tape is not intended for permanent installations because it DOES dry out and crack and get loose fairly quickly - sometimes in less than a year in a hot environment, rarely less than 10 even in an air-conditioned environment on a VERY LOW POWER splice.
 If it's tape on a high-power splice, the issue gets worse quickly as the splice ITSELF generates heat, even when WELL done, due to contact resistance.

 There is a reason insulated crimp connectors exist - though even THOSE can have issues long-term even when installed correctly, they're a LOT better than splices on a high-power or in a long-term installation.

 For reference, some smaller arc welders MAX OUT at 250 amps - like the Lincoln model my late father used.

 You CAN get the whole thing free of charge - just download each chapter seperately.
 The "pay for it" entire version is the print version, and the cost is to cover the cost of publication more than anything else.
 You can also generally get access to it enough to read it through most Union Electrician shops if you ask politely, and some LIBRARIES have a copy of it.

Love it! Gotta remember that one...

i believe it all boils down to professionalism. People do it via professional way.. guided by codes, may it be IEEE, ASHRAE, etc... others do it DIY way.. and if something goes wrong.. DIY becomes Destroy It Yourself.

The main concern here is safety. You can do it cut and splice.. yes it will work definitely but there are risk specially when there is no maintenance and regular check up. I've seen wiring with splices. In the long run, due to heat, vibration, moisture, electrical tapes loosens due to heat, splices get loose because of thermal expansion on copper. Also vibration from equipment causes loose wiring. Loose wiring causes failure.

So whatever way how you do it.. BE SAFE!

Thanks for the apology.

Excused and very well put ^^ A Tip o' the visor for it!

About Ja far too often said outside forces can have significant influence in the policies the various organizations have but sometimes the groups do fight back.

Case in point is the IEEE vs the State of Oregon Licensing Board re: when is an Engineer not an Engineer... In short, earlier this year an EE licensed in the State of Oregon made Public comments about red light cameras timing at intersections in one of the counties. The county did not dispute his claims - they instead reported him to the State Licensing Board. He was sanctioned by the State Board for presenting (a very solid) engineering argument on  the matter however - not being a Civil Engineer specializing in Traffic Safety they felt he violated the States rules of conduct. The IEEE not only as a community but also officially as an organization has overwhelmingly sided with him in fighting the sanctions despite that one could say it cuts into the business of Civil PE's.

Well you all have taught me a valuable lesson..

Indeed I should not have been so quick to boast of the simplicity and ease of electrical usage...In a public forum
Yes it is irresponsible of me to promote a set-up such as mine without listing the risks and responsibilities to diligent maintenance and supervision.
Please excuse my silly defensiveness and pride.


And yes there is huge value in the vast knowledge base of painfully gained wisdom enshrined in NEC Ashrae IEEE ASEE and many such professional orgs.
Especially with respect to PUBLIC safety and commercial operations & liability.


And yes most of these orgs very mission is to educate and advise and mature the knowledge base.
The corruption and bureaucracy and influence of commercial interests often serve to undermine and monopolize these institutions.
No amount of legislation can insulate or mitigate incompetence, negligence, corruption.
Nor can compliance alone prevent disaster..One should not be lulled into false security by compliance.

 
Actually physics and Eeng education and experience is absolutely essential to qualify one to DESIGN SAFE generation distribution & transmission systems.
But I agree that is no guarantee that the same individual is qualified or competent in actually building connecting servicing such.
There is many a twixt between tongue and lip.

And I did speak rather too loosely.

That rather reminds me... I need to look up and repost the bits I did about safely powering miners with mega PSU's like the 4kw ones from IBM. Boils down to fusing each PCIe power wire triplet so a shorted miner doesn't go volcanic like Tupsu's s7's did...

Folks seem to forget that those suckas would make a great 333 amp arc welder Probably won't save the faulted hash board but should keep things from getting so out of hand!

Exactly.
The only thing I will say in Philopolymath's defense is that ja, knowing the 'why's of things' allows for making an engineering decision about how they are going to do things. That includes what the probable and speaking long-term, possible, outcomes of those design choices will/can be.. In his case, he should know why standards exist and that as an Engineer - which brings possible legal liability - why he cannot in a public forum just willy-nilly blow them off.

If he is happy taking the risks of not following the most basic well established guidelines for his personal setups and knows he shoucld monitor things, fine. However as an Engineer the concept of Professional Responsibility dictates emphasizing to the general public that ja it *works* but....

I get that, in fact I made mention of exactly that before I edited my post down for more snark...! But you are correct, if someone is actually doing searches, and lots of reading before spouting off and looking foolish as so many noobs do here, then they deserve to read the corrected version when presented with a possible time bomb due to electrical dufusness.  Trust me, I know, was living with friends of the family back in high school days and had all of my possessions, including a 45 minute tape my mom had me make at 6 years old rambling on about all sorts of stuff - lost in a fire due to electrical amateur hour bullshit.
So that's why I tend to dismiss the idiots, though your approach might prevent someone else from going through what I did...
 

For me at least, not arguing. Just providing an *ahem* properly informed counterpoint to stuff like that so when newbs come across it they get both sides. Most should be smart enough to decide on their own who to believe.

Speaking of which, since it was brought up, link for the NEC page of the NFPA site...

Do note the link for FREE ACCESS to the standards. For the record, standards are updated/revised every 3-5 years with the revisions process which INCLUDES PUBLIC INPUT for various bits typically starting 2x per-year.

NotFuzzy, Quint, casting pearls amongst swine again!
Don't argue with idiots:
1st, they bring you down to their level
2nd, they beat you with experience!  

Ja. The NEC is organized, maintained, and published by the National Fire Protection Association which is a private organization -- not part of the government. I suppose you have a problem with UL, CE and TÜV as well?

Yes the NFPA is a consortium of many electrical product along with other hazardous (flammable/explosive handling products) manufacturers and even building materials makers along with the major global insurance companies.

Yes they (manufacturers) have a vested interest in making sure their products are used correctly and on the insurance end insurers want to have some surety that electrical devices and other materials/products are safe to use.

Yes the NEC was developed in part to cover asses and does it by providing a legally recognized framework of recommended minimum requirements AND Best Practices. Follow the guidelines and power systems should not go 'poof' as a result of poor design choices and/or inadequately rated components.

Yes, follow Code to the letter and electrical power system designers/installers are usually off the hook when things happen that are outside of the normal. This is bad why?

As for any part of the NEC you care to look at is freely available for anyone who wants to read it. No joining required. Ja to get the entire NEC ya have to pay for it but so what? Sure smells like easy self-learning of how to do it right and independence to me...

 Splices tend to develop intermittant connections due to corruption over time.
 They are NOT "safer than code".
 I've spent way too much time REPLACING splce connections that FAILED AND CAUSED ISSUES to listen to your ignorance.

 Most of the current CODE dates from the 1960s and 1970s with substantial upgrades in every decade since then, not the "1900s".
 If you were an ELECTRICIAN you would understand that - and WHY the code is revised and updated with new and changed information every few years.

 BTW - GE doesn't sell all that much electrical distribution equipment, Schneider sells a LOT more especially since their buyout of Square D.
 GE is a lot bigger in "big unit" power GENERATION equipment like turbines (gas AND water) than in electrical distribution gear.

 The Government doesn't write the NEC, nor was The Government responsible for it's creation.
 In fact, most regulation on building and wiring is done at State or Local level (MOSTLY LOCAL by cities and counties), and they realized fairly quickly that it was easier cheaper AND PROMOTED BETTER SAFETY to adopt the NEC than it was to try to maintain their own ccodes individually.

 Expert at physics does NOT make you an expert at SAFE power distribution.


 Many or most electrical fires are caused by BAD CONNECTIONS, sometimes caused by splices that have corroded over the years, sometimes caused by wires getting frayed by wear (like when some utility companies don't "trim back" trees around their power lines on a frequent enough basis, or when someone lets their cat chew on power cords).
 Many more are caused by OVERLOADS - which is not the fault of the receptacle or the plug, nor is it the fault of the plug when the wiring at the plug gets frayed by misuse or abuse.

Yes it is 3 phase all the way down into the PDU. Its split internally in each PDU xy xz yz. Each leg has its own 20 amp breaker on the PDU.

retracted