Topic: Skat af bitcoins i DK - page 2. (Read 9652 times)

As you're concerned about the details, did you also run a watmeter on the rigs, to ensure that you know how much to deduct for electricity ? What about the hours you've put in as manual labour ? If you have some special skills that will make things easier for you, then this is taxable if used for your own benefit. For example, if a worker does something on his own property in Norway, the tax department might be able to estimate a value of this work, and then charge taxes on it.

So to be 100% in compliance, you should note down all your special skills, and get a stop watch to time all the time you use for everything.

Also, you should take into account any travelling time and expenses used to aquire the mining gear, and mining-clothes you've especially purchased to go along with the enterprise. If you used a Cap, then add that in as well. Also make sure to deduct the bandwidth used for the enterprise, but make sure to only deduct the fraction used for mining, while the other stuff like browsing the news, watching youtube and so on can't be deducted. I'm sure you used some data usage meter along with the watmeter, right ?

Also worth taking into account is the wear and tear on all your mining gear? Did a fan get jammed and you need to replace it ? Tax-deductable! Did you get a spare GFX-card from your neighboor ? Oh dear, then that must be added as benefits, taxable!

Have you also remembered to pay the international cross-border e-commerce tax on speculative foreign investments that was declared a necessity by the Danish government in appliance with EU e-commere regulatives ? What about the fees paid to MtGox and the banks, did you make sure to deduct this ? Did you report the earnings to the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Economical affairs as set forth in the Asian digital money transsmitter act of 2009 ?

Have you made absolutely sure that all clothes stored by your wife have been stored in a vacuum enhanced room, to ensure they're not at all contaminated by electrons omitted from the rattling mining gear that might infect chairs, and furniture she will touch in her semi public position? Now, that would be a real problem. At the same time, did you remember to do the hamster dance before officially slipping the tax return in the mailbox, or if you did it online, were you sure to run the hamster dance in accordance with EU regulation 12 chapter 42, paragraph ∞, governing digital pleasurement while filing tax returns ?

I'm not entirely sure you're in compliance at this point, if unsure, I think you should really repeat it all over, or just hire a dedicated mining auditor approved by the Danish Ministry of Finance ! Also, have you remembered to get the bitcoin miner tag tatoo as required by the Virtual Cryptocurrency Mining Approval Act of 2012 ? This is quite important, and unless you adhere to this strict requirement set forth by your government, you will be summoned by the 1st of May and being forced to accept the following tatoo as a sign you're part of the Dark Mining Cult of No Tax Return:

I am stupendously honest on my tax return! I'm including everything. Otherwise their answer will be incomplete and of no use as a guide. I have mined 198.5 BTC in total put them on GOX sold some and traded for fun and only have a fiat balance there now. I have to know which tax law applies to me. I imagine same rules apply as other questionable foreign investments, but I don't dare to touch them before I have a written confirmation from Skat about that. Bitcoin actually being valuable on a scale that rivals a regular income came as a surprise to me, as everybody else, so doing dispositions now in Bitcoin officially is serious stuff. I have to wait for their answer.

My wife has a semi public position, no need to have her nerdy husband  screw up on Bitcoin.

That is very interesting.  This doesn't apply to me except maybe with some LTC, which is not big deal atm. Seems like the thing to do is just move them then. You are either trying to be a bit honest for your own good here or you have a shitload of coins  If it's the shitload coins good for you! But then again be afraid. I assume the US has a similar law but I don't pay taxes there atm although I am still a citizen.

We do understand each other, you don't dig my humor though. I was also updating on some previous subject in this thread in the same post, sorry.

(1) Bitcoin have no value officially, so keeping them in your wallet in Denmark is not reportable or taxable, yet! However to be totally straight you would have to report capital gains home in the US when you sell them. If you sell them while in Denmark capital gains tax rules apply here too.

(2) Having Bitcoin on an exchange in a country outside Denmark where they easily can be sold for $$ is another matter, That's considered an asset in a foreign country and reportable before the end of the tax year for me as a Dane regardless of the missing official status of Bitcoin. I asked Skat specifically on that one!

Huh?


Wow vi snakker forbi hinanden meget!!!! This is what I have said/asked from the start.  Until you trade back to fiat then there is nothing for Skat to tax.  Even if I "take" my BTC to the US they can/will not tax them until they are dollar again. 

Sorry zedster: Having mined some coins and keeping them in you wallet is like making an ugly painting. of the "little mermaid" on Langelinie.

The fact that you take it home to the US and is able to sell it for a lot does not matter. Gains of private holdings of an asset is not taxable before you sell it. So if you are not selling it here, you are home free.

Not real sure if you are still talkin to me here Luno but once again I say. If your asset is in crypto then there is nothing for Skat to trace or look at.  They do not consider it anything but like WoW gold at this point.  The US FinCEN has no jurisdiction here as I am sure you know and DK has passed no such thing.  The more you bring their attention to it though then who knows.

If you are trading back to DKK and for substantial amounts, then yeah be afraid, be very afraid.  Since we all know your more likely to get jail time for tax evasion than murder (or at least more time) in this fair land.

If you are planning on claiming losses for mining BTC then you are just asking for trouble.  Mining in DK is a losing venture unless you're on free power as I talked about earlier.

And aren't you too late now for 2012 tax return?  Refunds (and giro cards) went out last month?  I will never understand you system as I say.  At least with the IRS I pretty much know how I am getting screwed.  Here it's like roulette.

There is a notion in Danish tax law called "hobby virksomhed" (hobby business) which is a label Danish Skat put on your tax return in certain cases:

You start a one man venture, have some costs, earn some money, but in the end of the year you lost money but Skat won't accept your filed deductions, because your "hobby virksomhed" is considered not serious and is considered an attempt to not make a living but create deductions for regular income.

For small business there is also a limit if you earn less than kr. 20.000-30.000 in a year you don't have to keep books or do VAT either but only declare your taxable earnings. I don't know that law in detail, that's why I'm strongly compelled to get my written answer from Skat before I'm too late for my 2012 tax return!

I also need to know if there is any precedence for barter currencies in Danish law. For all I know, some king could have outlawed it 400 years ago and make me punishable by whiplashing for all I know

Hey Luno thanks for the reply.

But so it's pretty much like I said.  As long as you keep your assets in BTC then really Skat will not have much to do with you.  As soon as you change it back to fiat then there are problems.  It maybe slightly different if you are currently buying a large amount of coins but that is surely not my situation.

I also have no intention of exchanging to fiat soon and probably never in Denmark.  Good god let me get my ass back to the States.  No matter what that is a my home and even if they are ignorant, gun toting, warmongering, capitalistic pigs it sure beats here.  Just my opinion not trying to offend anyone.

And btw, I have seen the recent interviews with Jeff Berwick and he calls them pseudo-anonymous not untraceable. Maybe I missed one but he does his best to defend against some real idiots. In the Fox Money interview he is great.  He is a very good spokesman for BTC and is doing more than most people for BTC. He does however call Satoshi Sakotoshi or something. That's an oops for sure. I wish I had more of a means to help the community but sadly it still takes money to make money.  That will never change.  I sure have ideas though.

And as for reporting anything to Skat about my BTC purchases.  I don't think so.  Once it's on the 1000s maybe but I am by no means a playa.

Hi, US citizen living in a very sad country, while in Denmark: If you solo mine coins through TOR and VPN and keep them in your wallet who can know? (possible only a few dark agencies around the world, if they care)

If you do transfers to / from Bitcoin through your bank account, they know! IBAN or other accounts related to Bitcoin are known by Danish tax authorities I imagine and will be reported by your bank branch if they ask!

If you sell Bitcoins and keep the proceeds on an on-line service they have a right to know, Having a balance with a company in another country, as there are no Danish services with servers in Denmark, in is reportable before the end of the tax year.

If you buy something with Bitcoin you have made or earned, it's just the same as putting the value of the purchase on your bank account. You have bought something for untaxed money which is a no no, not to report here as well as it is in the US.

I'm in the process of compositing 5 official questions to Danish "Skat" to have them clarify which rule sets apply to different Bitcoin uses! If they play ball we'll all have an answer in a few weeks.

Anonymity in Bitcoin is only in the way you acquire them. Bitcoin itself is wide open, how could it be trusted by alien parties otherwise? If you buy Bitcoin in a dark alley and the guy you buy them from, payed for them through his bank, there is a trail to your wallet. In the old days, a few deals was done in here in this forum for "pristine" wallet keys to wallets with 50 solo mined coins that never had been transfered to anything. Those were the only kind of Bitcoins that truely could be considered anonymous. There are plenty on early wallets in the blockchain with exactly 50BTC that never have been moved. Someone knew from the start that Bitcoin anonymity is a myth and kept a "stash". I bet the keys for these wallets are sold at a premium in dark alleys.  

FinCen's layout for Bitcoin dealings point toward a seamless integration of the existing KYC AML rulebook with Bitcoin so exchanges are complying if they want to stay in business. The very first half Bitcoin I aquired in 2011 from the "Bitcoin faucet" required me to register with a verified email. There has never been any built in anonymity in Bitcoin for the average careless user!

If you use Bitcoin as a way to buy illegal stuff you are playing with fire. The fact that a guy like Jeff, when interviewed about his ATM's  with in built cameras, keeps stating that Bitcoin is "untraceable" makes him either incredible stupid or on someones payroll.

Edit, addendum: If you have some mined or bought coins in you wallet here in Denmark, I don't think they are going to be considered a reportable fortune yet for a few years by Skat unless you have thousands of coins.

If you have coins with a service outside Denmark, acquired while in Denmark,  I think you better report them and let Skat decide if the are reportable and taxable!

Hey folks,

I have lived in DK for 18 years and still have no idea how your tax systems works besides the fact they take a lot of my money.  I really tried to follow this thread but my Danish just isn't good enough to follow all the tax jargon.  They someone jumps in with Swedish or Norwegian and I am completely lost.

I am having trouble seeing the problem to begin with.  As long as you keep things in BTC then Skat can't do a thing about it, has been my understanding.  As soon as you change back into fiat then you are under the same laws as any other investment or business. I notice some talk about about mining and claiming losses for mining. With the price of electricity in DK I can't see how mining can ever be profitable unless you have solar or your own windmill.  And why would you want to tell Skat about this anyway? Like I say I am not understanding enough of the thread to follow I think. 

If someone has the time and patience I really would like a quick synopsis of what the big debate is here between us and Skat.  I would like to know if I am doing something that may come back to bite me in the ass.

TIA

Tog ved egen drift kontakt til Skat telefonisk idag, da jeg, som jeg tidligere har nævnt, i engelsk talende tråde, opfatter FinCen rapporten fra 18. Marts som et klart vink med en vognstang on at besiddelse af Bitcoin er et aktiv som må høre under oplysningspligten for skat på en eller anden måde.

Jeg talte med flere undrende ansatte ved Skat, indtil jeg blev omstillet til afdelingen for udenlandske værdipapier og internationale økonomiske lyssky affærer! .

Hun forstod udemærket mit dilemma om hvordan man opgør en ikke lovgivet og udefineret aktiv.

Om Bitcoin generelt, fortalte jeg at det var en decentral internet valuta der var opfundet i 2009 som var prissat frit og ikke knyttet til en bestemt valuta og som siden starten af dette år har fået en volsom stigning i international opmærksomhed og pris.

For mig personligt har det medført at det der sidste år var en hobby med underskud, som hvis jeg havde aflagt regnskab for 2012, ville give mig et fradrag, men da beløbene var små og det gav underskud ville skat højst sansynligt have bedømt det som hobby og ikke anderkende fradraget eller forlange regnskab. Hvorimod prisudviklingen i løbet af i år har medført at det jeg foretog mig sidste år nu er blevet en OK overskudsforretning.

Så jeg betaler de 300,- og sender dem mit komplette Bitcoin regnskab 2012-2013 sammen med spørgsmål om opgørelse af aktiver og indtægter i Bitcoin de sidste år og hvordan det skal vurderes som et aktiv; Er de i ens besiddelse eller er en Bitcoin altid overalt på en gang og under regler for udenlandsk formue? Er tolkningen fra FinCen om mining/produktion af Bitcoins som en digital vare brugbar for danske forhold? Er den et "betalingsmiddel" eller en vare dvs. momspligtig?

Jeg spurgte også specifikt om hvis jeg havde haft overskud i 2012 og jeg så havde aflagt et alm. købmandsregnskab: indtægter-udgifter og betalt 49% af overskuddet. Det sagde hun var et meget fornuftigt udgangspunkt hvis man i løbet af året havde tjent penge på en uventet måde!

Så jeg lægger hovedet på blokken med den mundtlige forsikring fra Skat om at hvis der er eventuelle detaljer der påvirker min skat for 2012, så er de klar over at jeg har gjort opmærksom på at evt. uafklarede forhold omkring ikke eksisterende lovgivning kan have medført en fejlagtig opgørelse for mit vedkommende i 2012.

Så alt i alt, fuldstændig opbakning fra deres side omkring usikkerheden i opgørelsen af noget så mystisk som Bitcoin.

Jeg vender tilbage med svar her når jeg har fået det, der kan godt gå 3 uger!!! Indtil videre kan jeg sove trygt om natten vel vidende at jeg ikke pt. har gjort mig skyldig ved manglende kendskab til loven i min opgørelse for 2012.

Hvad jeg har bestilt er et officielt bindende skriftligt svar der vil have indflydelse på hvordan andre danskere kan opgøre indtægter i Bitcoin. Jeg håber ikke min beslutnig får negativ indflydelse på andres muligheder for at udvikle kommercielle Bitcoin løsninger i Danmark.

MVH Tore

Nej jeg sage ikke B-ordet. Fra tidligere i tråden forstår jeg at hvis man nævner Bitcoin for Skat, bliver man mødt med undren.

Fakta indtil videre: ECB har udtalt i deres rapport fra November at Bitcoin bliver fulgt med interesse og som værende en form for betalingsmiddel. De ser ingen umiddelbar grund til at udstede retningslinjer, men forbeholder sig retten til at regulere Bitcoin på et senere tidspunkt hvis det er nødvendigt.

FinCen siger her fra marts at Bitcoin er et financielt instrument, at det er omfattet af gældende regler mht internationale overførsler og oplysningspligt og det at drive financiel forretning mellem Bitcoin og nationale valutaer er financiel virksomhed. DVS. at det kræver godkendelse og oplysnings registrering af kunders idenditet.

Så begge udmeldinger er egentlig positive, men skriften på væggen er at Bitcoin på sigt vil blive betragtet som formue. Det er imidlertid først blevet antydet med FinCen rapporen her i marts, så du har til enden af året til at oplyse dit indestående på GOX i Bitcoin hvis du vil være helt sikker på ikke at kunne knaldes for noget.
FinCen rapporten siger også at Bitcoins du har mined selv og har i en wallet på din computer, ikke er oplysningspligtige, men når du altså har dem på en børs hvor de let kan omsættes til "rigtige penge" så er det ikke til at løbe fra som udenlandsk formue for en ikke Amerikaner eller Japaner.

Hvordan var det det var med at downloade musik fra FTP og websider i gamle dage? Den første lov gjorde det ulovligt at hoste mp3 filer til hele nettet men det var ok til inviterede venner med logon. Så blev det ulovligt at hoste musik fulstændigt. og tilsidst blev det ulovligt at downloade. Lovgivningen nåede ud til alle led til sidst men det omhandlede ikke kommerciel deling!

Allerede i slut firserne, da jeg havde en Atari-STE med 16 kbit farver, var der en fyr i Århus der sendte floppy disketter med Atarispil for 5-10 kroner. Han sendte dem med posten og tjente nok nogle få kroner hver gang. Han blev snuppet for ulovlig distribution fordi han tjente penge på det! Jeg tror ikke at der var nogen spiludgiver der sagsøgte over ophavsret, det var udelukkende en sigtelse for at sælge noget for penge altså at han beviseligt havde en indtægt.

Så lektionen er at det øjeblik ens aktiviteter er en indtægtsgivende og ens aktiver repræsenterer en formue der er omsættelig til penge, så skal det oplyses og indtægter beskattes. det kan godt være at Skat siger at De Bitcoin du har på Gox ikke er penge i skattemæssig forstand, selvom FinCen mener det. Da der ikke eksisterer national eller EU lovgivning endnu, Risikoen ved ikke at frivilligt at oplyse ens beholdning af Bitcoins på Gox kan være stor også selvom de højst sansynligt på nuværende tidspunkt ikke vil blive betragtet af skat som formue.

Og for fuldstændighedens skyld: Hvis du køber Bitcoins i dit eget land eller på nettet med indkomstbeskattede penge så køber du bare hvad du vil med dem on-line eller i en forretning der modtager bitcoins. Hvis du har mined Bitcoins, vundet dem eller tjent dem, skal du svare skat af det beløb du køber noget for. Dvs. Du miner 9 Bitcoins og køber en Porsche Boxer om en uge for 5 af dem. Så skal du huske  at sælge de resterende 4 og sende pengene til Skat! Om du sælger hjemmelavede Bitcoins for penge eller køber varer direkte for dem, skal du betale skat af værdien.

Du spurgte ikke ind til, hvordan det forholder sig hvis man kun har bitcoins i sin wallet opbevaret i DK og ikke fiat?

Gad også godt vide, hvad der sker hvis man har minet BTC og bruger dem til at købe ting for, hvad så?

Hvis man har BTC og bare opbevarer dem, så skal det vel heller ikke oplyses før man køber anden valuta for dem?

Ja, det er det prinsipp man skal operere etter for å holde seg inne med gjeldende lover og regler.

Snakkede med Skat idag:

De stigende priser på det seneste har landet mig med en konto udelukkende med fiat, så jeg har besluttet at holde en pause (der er ingen spekulations indhold i den udmelding )

Så jeg var forbi Skat for at få en udskrift på min adresse, det var noget min bank foreslog mig, da jeg ikke ejer en regning med mit navn på (bor i arbejdsgiver betalt bolig incl. varme vand tlf. strøm, ikke gratis, men jeg betaler over lønnen)

Jeg fortalte hende at jeg har tjent nogle penge i år i et Japansk firma og om det var omfattet af oplysningspligten på formuer i udlandet sålænge at de stod som et tilgodehavende i firmaet?

Svaret var utvetydigt ja Det betyder at man ikke kan lade en fiat saldo flyde på Gox i årevis indtil man synes at det er rigtigt at købe uden at skulle betale 10% årligt af indestående og oplyse beløbet til Skat!

Imidlertid er fristen fra pengene er tilrådighed indtil udgangen af skatteåret. Så det er altså svar på min sammenligning med Amazon gavekort: Hvis du har et Amazon gavebevis skal værdien oplyses senest ved udgangen af skatteåret. Der er muligvis en teoretisk bagatelgrænse, men i princippet skal alt oplyses.

Fornøyelig historie, slik er det - vanlige ansatte i skatteetaten har ikke greie på sånt som dette.. Til og med fagavdelingen vil slite, kan jeg tenke meg..


En interessant holdning. Ja, du kan spekulere så mye du vil - taper du - trist for deg - vinner du - bra for oss (skattefuten) og for deg. Den skatt vil vi gjerne ha!

Hvor mange vil inngå følgende deal med meg: Du drar på casion i Las Vegas, og tar med 5000 av dine egne penger, vinner du, så får jeg 28% av din gevinst, og taper du - så er det du som tar tapet! Fet deal, ikke?



Så vi kan se for oss 2 scenarioer:

1. Man kjøper et brød i en dansk butikk for 20 danske kroner. Kanskje bakeren tar bitcoin, og da må han selvsagt legge på tilsvarende moms på bitcoin som på danske kroner, det sier seg selv.
2. Man kjøper bitcoins, da blir det et handelsgebyr, og fornuft og logikk tilsier at man må betale moms av handelsgebyret, ikke på hele den bitcoinsum man kjøpte, selv med stigning i kursen ville moms på 25% på kjøpte bitcoins være drepen for handel.


Ja, dette høres relativt fornuftig ut.

Men til alle dere der ute som er nervøse ifht. skatt osv, så lenge du bruker hodet og gjør en best-effort ifht. å opprettholde dine forpliktelser, så har du neppe noe å frykte. Det er ingen myndigheter som kommer til å bry seg nevneverdig om du opererer med småbeløp på infrekvent basis. Om du tar hjem en milliongevinst, så er de nok straks mer interesserte.

Regner med det vil komme mere retningslinjer fra statlig side etterhvert. Men cryptovalutaer endres og vokser raskt, mye raskere enn noe som helst myndighetsorgan klarer å henge med på. Vanligvis tar direktiver, lover, forslag, regler og retningslinjer flere måneder om enn ikke år å bli utformet. Det er det frie markedet som er tingen mine herrer og damer. Vi trenger ikke showstoppere og partybreakere, det vi trenger er lite red-tape, og konkurranse på det frie markedet!

Analyse paralyse

Men hvordan ved jeg, hvad jeg har tjent? Hvornår tjener jeg pengene? Hvad hvis jeg får gratis BTC med en værdi på 1 $ og et år efter bruger dem til at købe mad der er 100 $ værd for? Hvad hvis jeg har 2 bitcoins, den ene købt for 1 $, den anden for 115 $, og jeg så sælger 1.5 BTC for 100 $ og derefter køber 3 nye for 50 $?

Det er jo helt uoverskueligt at skulle holde styr på. Jeg ved f.eks. heller ikke hvor mange penge jeg har i lommen lige nu, hvilke kurssvinginger de har været udsat for eller hvor de i det hele taget er kommet fra.

Enig. Men om du f.eks. tjener 3000kr, så oppgir du det til skattefuten, og så kan de sikkert hjelpe deg med å fortelle deg hvor mye du skal betale i skatt.