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Topic: Skeptical of the skeptics... - page 2. (Read 9814 times)

jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
July 10, 2011, 03:27:14 PM
#57
I doubt you will either when, say twenty years from now or so, you look around and realize everything is still pretty much the same.  No big collapse, no economic apocaplyse (except that gold is back down at $800 an ounce or so, so all the goldbugs lost a ton buying high and refusing to sell), just normal growth and inflation.

You do realize that if that 'normal' rate of inflation continues for twenty years as is, the $800 will have become $3200, right? Gold at $1500 now seems a pretty good investment then Smiley

Massaged inflation numbers in red, actual in blue, from http://www.shadowstats.com:


Quote from: billyjoeallen
A deflationary death spiral is going to happen absent considerable Fed/Treasury intervention (massive money printing).

A deflationary spiral is already happening worldwide, it's just hidden beneath bogus statistics and stimulus packages that temporarily make it appear everything is going well, but in reality are only making things worse. Those packages come from going deeper into debt, which will have its price. The sad truth is, if the Fed does nothing, there will be a sudden crash, if they continue the massive money printing, there will be a long, drawn out one (also see 1920/1921 followed by the roaring twenties vs. the great depression, followed by hyperinflation and WWII..). The sudden crash is better for everybody, even those who stand to lose most from it (politicians/banksters), they just don't want to know it.

None of this is being helped by institutions like Goldman Sachs being allowed to make the same gambits over and over again with impunity (latest example: collude with corrupt Greek politicians to hide Greece's debt while betting against them on the side), and getting bailed out if it backfires.

Quote from: billyjoeallen
Holding physical dollars is the best play if you think one of the TBTFs (such as Bank America) is going down.

That logic is mindboggling. Massive money printing, in your own words, will make your Dollars worth more than something they don't massively devalue? If the TBTFs do fail, the first thing to go is the USD. No amount of printing will help that, only accelerate (hyperinflation).

BTW, the off-book debts that are coming out also exist in the US, the UK and the rest of the Eurozone, but they are by far the largest in the US. Hence the ~400k USD debt per capita instead of the so far officially acknowledged ~45k.

If you think gold is in a bubble, at least invest in oil, grain, fresh water or something else that will retain its value then. USD is not that something (neither is the Euro, and definitely not the GBP). I wouldn't actually advise investing in Bitcoin either because that's even more risky right now, but if I had to choose between BTC and USD, I'd take BTC.

And this isn't investment advice, I'm not qualified to give it etc.
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
July 10, 2011, 02:18:26 PM
#56
that doesn't mean hyperinflation is inevitable. A deflationary death spiral is going to happen absent considerable Fed/Treasury intervention.

The majority of dollars, those held in electronic ledgers at banks, would evaporate as the fractional reserve money multiplier works in reverse. 


No, not inevitable.  But why would the Fed ever consider backing off with intervention? They know Americans will turn on them if they stop the flow of new money. Since most Americans are in debt, deflation will hurt them just as much as inflation.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
July 10, 2011, 01:35:32 PM
#55
all new things are likely to fail.

I stopped reading here. This quote was probably mentioned and true quite sometime back when neanderthals ruled the earth. Saying something like this now is just retardant( Grin ).

Maybe you shouldn't stop reading as soon as a disagreeable point is made, for you may find such a point to be supported by reasoning following the making of said point =)

I said that all new things are likely to fail because it's true. New stuff tends to fail. New businesses, new products, new ideas. The tendency is to fail, and only a minority of them succeed after being tested in the real world. I didn't realize such an observation was contentious?

Statistically speaking, Bitcoin is likely to fail purely because it is new and revolutionary. However, the more one analyzes Bitcoin, the more sound it appears to be. The world will be a much better place if it succeeds... and good riddance to fiat.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
July 10, 2011, 10:45:49 AM
#54
OP. Will you be my friend? Because you spoke exactly as my thought process of knowing and understanding bitcoins' main feature that sets it apart with how you compared it with "flight".

All we need to know about bitcoin is that it can indeed "FLY". We don't need to know how fast and how high yet, because we've already learned how to break the barrier of "FLIGHT". All we need now it to make HARDER, BETTER, FASTER, and STRONGER. That will surely come with time. It's not like we are gonna forget how to FLY now that we know how. No matter how much these "skeptics" may want you to believe.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
July 10, 2011, 08:12:17 AM
#53
Nobody is more bearing on the long-term American economy than I am, but that doesn't mean hyperinflation is inevitable. A deflationary death spiral is going to happen absent considerable Fed/Treasury intervention (massive money printing). Real estate and labor (wages) are already in a serious deflationary trend. 

Holding physical dollars is the best play if you think one of the TBTFs (such as Bank America) is going down. Considering how overleveraged they are, this is a real possibility.  The majority of dollars, those held in electronic ledgers at banks, would evaporate as the fractional reserve money multiplier works in reverse.  I call this scenario The Great Unwinding.

Bitcoin still has a major roll to play, because if the SHTF, capital controls will be imposed.

legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
July 09, 2011, 10:40:21 PM
#52

You remind me of that guy Camping, who recently predicted the end of the world.

99.9999% of all humanity knew Harold Camping was wrong.

I dare you to find five economic experts who agree that US economic health will improve going forward.

Also please note: if the US economy crashes, its not the end of the world, but the end of an era.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
July 09, 2011, 09:29:47 PM
#51
You and your "OMG the USD is dooooomed!!!" brethren are just spreading FUD based on wishful thinking and a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics.

Then I suppose the meaning and implication of runaway debt is completely lost to you.

US debt will not be paid off. It can't be paid off. NO AMOUNT of taxation, reasonable or otherwise, can put a dent in the US's ocean of debt.

That means a DEFAULT, an overnight trashing of the dollar's value (20-30% inflation in less than a year, it happened to the UK in 1975), large increases in gas and food price, and widespread unemployment of perhaps 30%.

Oh, and world reserve currency status? Say goodbye to it. That will be a killer blow to the USD.

This is coming within a few years at the most, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, except get out of US dollar assets.
Within a few years at most, huh?  You remind me of that guy Camping, who recently predicted the end of the world.  May 21 came and went, and strangely he didn't admit that he was completely wrong.  I doubt you will either when, say twenty years from now or so, you look around and realize everything is still pretty much the same.  No big collapse, no economic apocaplyse (except that gold is back down at $800 an ounce or so, so all the goldbugs lost a ton buying high and refusing to sell), just normal growth and inflation.

Doomsday nuts always seem to forget all their confident assertions as soon as they're proven wrong.



[/quote]
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
July 09, 2011, 07:08:03 PM
#50
A good argument, with only one minor issue... why would the US need to pay the debt off in the first place, and how would this lead to a default?

If the US says they aren't going to pay the Chinese, or invent some financial vehicle around it (like inflating the USD into nothingness), the Chinese will retaliate by dumping US treasury bonds. That will default the US without any US say in it. If you say that doesn't matter, then what do you think will happen to Chinese imports? What will happen to the US economy if all the shelves start to resemble the soviet era eastern block? The only thing preventing this is China not wanting a sudden manufacturing collapse either. But eventually they will get to a point where they don't need the US export anymore and other interests will matter more (Taiwan for example).

Quote from: makomk
US national debt is actually relatively small as a percentage of GDP right now,

That depends on whose numbers you believe. Even the cooked numbers say 85% in 2009, 95% in 2010. QE and raising the debt ceiling makes sure it will be over 100% this year.



Quote from: makomk
both compared to historic levels and to other countries.

Heh, the US debt is at a historic high, the US has the largest amount of debt in absolute terms (larger than the whole Euro zone together) and if you exclude tax havens and maybe the UK only a few catastrophies like Iceland, Greece and some IMF colonized African countries come near in relative terms. If you believe some conspiracy sites, the US debt per person is something like 400,000 USD currently. Good luck repaying that by going into more debt (what do you think raising the debt ceiling is good for?).
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
July 09, 2011, 06:01:08 PM
#49
It's puzzling to me that so many people involved with a cutting-edge electronic currency project are so economically primitive.

"Economically primitive", LOL!

My friend, save yourself the humiliation and go learn some true economics, please. Read some Mises, Hayek, Rothbard. Throw away all your Keynesian crap.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 564
July 09, 2011, 05:10:03 PM
#48
US debt will not be paid off. It can't be paid off. NO AMOUNT of taxation, reasonable or otherwise, can put a dent in the US's ocean of debt.

That means a DEFAULT, an overnight trashing of the dollar's value (20-30% inflation in less than a year, it happened to the UK in 1975), large increases in gas and food price, and widespread unemployment of perhaps 30%.

Oh, and world reserve currency status? Say goodbye to it. That will be a killer blow to the USD.
A good argument, with only one minor issue... why would the US need to pay the debt off in the first place, and how would this lead to a default? US national debt is actually relatively small as a percentage of GDP right now, both compared to historic levels and to other countries. The only thing putting them in any danger of defaulting whatsoever in the imminent future is the Republican's assholish refusal to increase the debt ceiling, and even that's incredibly unlikely to happen.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
July 09, 2011, 04:12:54 PM
#47
all new things are likely to fail.

I stopped reading here. This quote was probably mentioned and true quite sometime back when neanderthals ruled the earth. Saying something like this now is just retardant( Grin ).
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
July 09, 2011, 04:07:23 PM
#46
You and your "OMG the USD is dooooomed!!!" brethren are just spreading FUD based on wishful thinking and a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics.

Then I suppose the meaning and implication of runaway debt is completely lost to you.

US debt will not be paid off. It can't be paid off. NO AMOUNT of taxation, reasonable or otherwise, can put a dent in the US's ocean of debt.

That means a DEFAULT, an overnight trashing of the dollar's value (20-30% inflation in less than a year, it happened to the UK in 1975), large increases in gas and food price, and widespread unemployment of perhaps 30%.

Oh, and world reserve currency status? Say goodbye to it. That will be a killer blow to the USD.

This is coming within a few years at the most, and there is nothing anyone can do about it, except get out of US dollar assets.


jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
July 09, 2011, 03:45:43 PM
#45
You and your "OMG the USD is dooooomed!!!" brethren are just spreading FUD based on wishful thinking and a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics.

I don't think there are a lot of people wishing for the complete and utter demise of the USD as that will have global consequences. Nevertheless, it's a real possibility the way things are going.

Quote from: Giraffe.BC
And probably more than a little greed, as I'm guessing many of you bought gold at absurdly high prices in anticipation of a collapse that's never coming.

You might be right on the second part, a collapse can be prevented by what they are trying to do right now. Raise the debt ceiling and socialize the debt. (Most) US citizens will earn less and less and move towards Chinese wages/standard of living ($2000 a year or something, last I heard). This basically means a reinstatement of feudalism, citizens will work for food and a place to live with little chance of saving anything, just like the Chinese factory wage slaves do now. It's possible, and seemingly in progress already, but obviously not exactly desirable.

Investing in gold will not prevent any of that BTW, there will be plenty of laws to divest you eventually. Maybe there is a chance if you settle elsewhere, provided they don't manage to do the same there. Learn Chinese possibly Smiley
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
July 09, 2011, 12:08:45 PM
#44

Hey, good argument! My turn...

The USD is finished; nobody wants to hold a hot potato. Controlled inflation is a bad thing, not a good thing.

I puzzles me how so many people can make baseless assertions, while being so derogatory and self righteous.
The difference is that my "baseless" assertions actually match reality.  You and your "OMG the USD is dooooomed!!!" brethren are just spreading FUD based on wishful thinking and a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economics.  And probably more than a little greed, as I'm guessing many of you bought gold at absurdly high prices in anticipation of a collapse that's never coming.
hero member
Activity: 527
Merit: 500
July 08, 2011, 10:56:56 PM
#43

Quote
2) The dollar IS just paper, man. It's an important philosophical, economic, and moral issue. Expressing antagonism toward a monetary system which is inflated at whim at the expense of those who are coerced into holding it is a very reasonable position to take, IMO.

Oh dear, I suspect you might be one of the nutter-butters I was referring to.  Here, write this down:  The USD isn't going anywhere.  It's not 1895, you don't need to trade your greenbacks for shiny metal anymore.  Controlled inflation is a good thing, not a bad thing.

It's puzzling to me that so many people involved with a cutting-edge electronic currency project are so economically primitive.


Hey, good argument! My turn...

The USD is finished; nobody wants to hold a hot potato. Controlled inflation is a bad thing, not a good thing.

I puzzles me how so many people can make baseless assertions, while being so derogatory and self righteous.
hero member
Activity: 868
Merit: 1000
July 08, 2011, 09:16:12 PM
#42
There are three kinds of people in this world, which one are you:


The ones that WATCH THINGS HAPPEN,
The ones that MAKE THINGS HAPPEN,
and the ones look around and say WHAT HAPPENED???
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1007
Hide your women
July 08, 2011, 09:01:12 PM
#41
You just can't argue with nitwits like this. It's competition between rival speculators that produces stability. Buying low and selling high keeps the price in the middle.

You mean like the 35% swing on tuesday/wednesday? Yeah, it's working fantastic Sherlock.

There's no short-selling options (puts) to cover. Gotta have the tools to do the job, Watson.

Oh wait, so you actually concede it's not working right now? Impeccable logic.

Something that isn't happening isn't working. Because it isn't happening. Duh.
When short-selling is enabled to a large degree, we will see more short-selling and less volatility.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
July 08, 2011, 06:14:26 PM
#40
You just can't argue with nitwits like this. It's competition between rival speculators that produces stability. Buying low and selling high keeps the price in the middle.

You mean like the 35% swing on tuesday/wednesday? Yeah, it's working fantastic Sherlock.

There's no short-selling options (puts) to cover. Gotta have the tools to do the job, Watson.

Oh wait, so you actually concede it's not working right now? Impeccable logic.
full member
Activity: 156
Merit: 102
July 08, 2011, 10:53:03 AM
#39
Skepticism is a healthy attribute. And to be brutally honest, of course Bitcoin is likely to fail - all new things are likely to fail. We're all engaged in a wildly speculative and risky venture, here. Even conservative ventures usually fail, and this is anything but conservative.

I agree with you on most of what you say: Bitcoin is a technical marvel, and it's shown by example how to set up a distributed currency system.  I would love to see the day when I can send money internationally instantly and without an intermediary / enormous fees.  I'm learning everything I can about the technical aspects of Bitcoin and am hoping to contribute back to the community in due time to bring its vision to fruition.

But I think what will ultimately happen is that the original Bitcoin will fail and a successor to it with saner economics will take over it.  At the risk of igniting the wrath of others on this forum (as I've seen happen elsewhere, even in this post to a partial extent), the fact that Bitcoin is deflationary will, I think, ultimately be its undoing:

* I don't see how, in the long run, a large number of people will spontaneously show the altruism necessary to get past the hoarding mentality of "why should I buy this today when I can buy twice of it tomorrow".  If everybody hoards their Bitcoins, merchants have no customers.  This is essentially a tragedy of the commons: everyone knows this will be a tragedy, and everyone hopes that there will be a vibrant Bitcoin economy, but the incentives at the individual level are set up so that you participate in that economy as little as possible while hoping that others won't do what you do.  We all know from experience that in these situations, it's the commons that yields, not the individuals.  Bitcoin attracts lots of "free market" people that loudly point out the importance of the word "free", but you can't spell "free market" without the word "market".
Hoarding bitcoins is not a problem. There are plenty of units to go around even if everyone hoards. Hoarding merely increases the value of bitcoins.
Quote
* I don't see how any kind of lending will work well (operative keyword: well) in the Bitcoin world.  Put yourself in the mentality of 100 years into the future when everyone earns BTCs and can buy anything with BTCs.  Now, if I lend you money, I will reasonably ask you to pay me back more than what I gave you; otherwise, I might as well have kept my money and not run the risk that you'd default on the loan.  But with every passing month, it becomes harder and harder for you to pay back the loan, as your salary drops and drops every day.  Now imagine something wonderful happens: I don't know, the Internet gets invented and millions of new jobs get created, so the economy expands, and so your paycheck goes *way* down.  Your debt hasn't, and you're screwed, even though things were supposed to have gotten better, not worse.  In an inflationary system, banks get screwed if the inflation rate goes way up (and they marshall the resources to fight this possibility hard), but banks are much better at coping with large economic shocks than are individuals with relatively tiny savings.
Lending will be less common in the bitcoin economy, but this isn't a problem. The fact that lending is so common with fiat currency systems is because banks create most of the money out of thin air and give it to themselves, and thus if you need money you have to get it from a bank. So lending is artificially high with fiat currencies because the central banks and their banking cartels have a monopoly on the money. Lending will be back to normal levels with bitcoin.
Quote
In a spirit diametrically opposite to what Bitcoin is supposedly setting out to do, I can't think of a better way of transferring enormous amounts of power to a small clique of bankers than deflationary lending.  All these people have to do is lend out money, charge interest, and never do anything with that money.  So either people aren't going to borrow money (good luck buying a house with your savings before you're 50 if you're in the bottom 98% income bracket), or we get enormous concentrations of power in lenders.  Neither of these prospects is appealing, and if the community's answer to these problems is to pretend that they don't exist, then by and large, the outside world's reaction to Bitcoins will be to pretend that they don't exist.

* By the way, try convincing anyone that its fine for their *nominal* paycheck to go down and down as they work more and more.  I think human psychology will trump the rational explanation that the amount of stuff you can buy with your ever-decreasing paycheck remains constant or increases.  Look at how many gimmicks companies today will go through to avoid cutting salaries during a recession, it's utterly demoralizing.
People will accept lower paychecks just like they accept rising prices today.
Quote
What I think might actually take off is a Bitcoin-like currency with a baked-in small, fixed rate of inflation, say 2% or so.  This gets rid of the hoarding problem: you're better off investing your money in something productive than sitting on it indefinitely.  It gets rid of the initial distribution problem by inflating away the "hard-earned" savings of the early adopters that stop contributing to the community after a few months of "back-breaking" mining, without undermining the savings of those who invested in furthering the Bitcoin ecosystem (my understanding is that some early adopters hold double-digit percentages of the whole Bitcoin economy, which puts it on par with Zimbabwe's wealth distribution).  It lays down the foundational for a sustainable banking system, where there's actually an incentive to lend money that would otherwise sit idle.  There's no central banker pulling the levers to control the inflation rate or to benefit from its control, if that's the bug that keeps you awake at night (see OP's last few replies), so it's not central-planning [off-topic, just thought I'd mention that there's a wide spectrum of economic possibilities from deflation to authoritarian central planning, and it's a stretch to claim that guiding macroeconomic policy with a single, blunt lever is equal to authoritarian central planning].
No one will want to put their money in an a currency that is just like bitcoin except its value drops with time.
Quote
The way I imagine this playing out is that Bitcoin eventually forks into separate currencies, and the mildly inflationary variants are the ones that actually gather mass momentum, leaving the deflationary variants in the dust (with their hoarders' fortunes not having lost a cent of nominal value, but becoming ultimately worthless).  Mild inflation, not subject to political influence, is a fair and equitable way of incentivizing economic activity and investment.

I know many of these things have been said before, but I think it's important to keep them in the day-to-day discussion.  The community hasn't come to a consensus that deflation economics is great (I get the sense there's a collective delusion that it has), and to me, that's the point that seems most likely to end Bitcoins as it exists today.  My optimism, which I share with the OP, is that the underlying technology is marvelous and the fundamental idea of Bitcoin is sound, so I expect those portions of the experiment to outlive Bitcoin itself.
hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1007
"How do you eat an elephant? One bit at a time..."
July 08, 2011, 10:13:51 AM
#38
For the record, I believe in having a limited supply of bitcoin. If bitcoin was ever changed to be an inflationary money, myself and many others would simply stop using it. We'd probably fork the block chain and refuse to download the latest release. I would venture to predict that the new, inflationary, version would die a quick death.

Just my 2 bitcents. Smiley

Trader Steve
http://www.GoldStarBullion.com
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