Topic: So I guess MtGox isn't even trying anymore ... (Read 6822 times)

A few things will change regarding Poland, things are set to go much smoother within this week.

i did. all i am saying that a proactive stance would've been better: "hi, you withdrew xxxx on yyyy, could be delayed by zzzz days due to polish aml..."


not me having to get a fit since my money is in limbo somewhere i don't know about.

We will have to check your exact withdrawal (Was it a withdrawal?). SEPA are normally and still are very smooth. Did you open a ticket?

it wouldve been nice to get a headsup that polish sepa is delayed due to aml.
not nice having to chase after my euros.
i had hoped being a trusted member would increase the speed of this, since its clear where the money is going to...?

Hello,

Your withdrawal has been confirmed as processed and should now be in your account.  Please contact our customer support at Zendesk if you have any further queries.  Thank you for your patience in this matter.

+1

the gox monopoly has got to end.  help bring an end to the monopoly.

+100

Emergency of sorts.  We sell most of our coins to direct buyers.  We unload the rest on exchanges which actually pay out funds on time. BTW: we now represent about 1 out 3 coins sold on bitfloor ).  Please please please Bitcoin buyers BUY from Bitfloor, you can get a better price!

About a week back we got a huge influx of orders in a very short period of time (like 3x our normal daily volume in span of 3 hours) just as USD/BTC was spiking.  I wasn't comfortable holding that much of the company working capital in BTC on a spike.  The other markets were saturated so I sold a moderate amount on Gox.

I guess for us they are the exchange of last resort.   We use them when there is no other good option. I knew the cashflow would be delayed, It was a calculated risk it just seems like it will be delayed more than I thought.

So why continue to use Gox?

Crap mine is 4 days behind yours and I was hoping it could clear soon.  I guess when your clears I still have a 3-5 day wait after that.   Hmm someone should make a "Gox Wait List" thread like they did for BFL so we can track the (lack of) progress in payouts.

Before someone asks "why use Dwolla if it is so slow?"  my last Gox wire took 3 days longer than Dwolla.  Nothing like paying $40 extra in fees to enjoy a 3 day longer delay.

i did a withdraw on 6/26. Today is 7/9, still NOTHING in my dwolla account.
MtGox, I would like to know where's my money.

If running a legitimate poker website but managing people's deposits "fractional reserve" style is a "ponzi scheme", I hate to think of what it'll do to Bitcoin's reputation if MtGox ever comes to be described in the media as a ponzi scheme.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57465457-93/poker-site-ceo-arrested-in-multimillion-ponzi-scheme/

Doesn't explain anything.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-mtgox-withdrawal-clarification-87086

Point 5.

But ... but ... It's all Dwolla's fault!  They are holding your money, even wire transfers!

Filing out a SAR or Form 8300 doesn't take 14-21 days.  Sorry.  It is utter BS that is your excuse.  

Six month ago wires were completed in 2 days and now it takes 21 days.  Did you forget how to fill out KYC AML paperwork?  

Furthermore the whole "it is a AML/KYC requirement" has titanic sized holes in it

A) In every delay customer support has been happy to cancel my withdrawal and let me take funds via another method (to include nearly untraceable bicoins).  If the funds were ACTUALLY held for AML investigation, assisting a customer with method to bypass the hold is CRIMINAL.  Period.   As in good way to spend next 10-20 years in a federal prison.  Once might be a mistake, but no way your staff is so utterly clueless on AML procedures to continually make the "mistake" of assisting your customers with methods to bypass an AML hold.

B) In every delay nobody ever contacts the customers.  There are no phone calls, no verification, no questions on the source of the funds.  Nothing.  Just complete silence and a long delay and then the funds go through.  The info you had on day 21 when funds are sent is the same info you had on day 1. 

C) The delay never goes away.  EVER large wire is delayed.  Even if somehow you were doing some investigating (which A&B make a insultingly stupid excuse) one would think that after 3, 4, 5, 10 wires eventually that customer could have funds deposited without delay.  Note I said without DELAY not without reporting.  Yes financial institutions have to file a SAR and 8300.  It takes all of 10 minutes to do.  Hell FinCEN makes it easy now, you can "efile" online.  The need to FILE can't explain why repeat withdraws are always DELAYED.

FILING =/= 21 day DELAY
REPORTING =/= 21 day DELAY
AML/KYC =/= 21 day DELAY
Following the law =/= 21 day DELAY

The process is always:
1) Make request
2) Wait 14-21 days (status "confirmed" = we haven't done shit because we don't have the money)
3) Day x (varies from 15 to 22 days) wire goes through.  No request for info, no verification, nothing.  Just a delay and then funds go though.

Of course, publish (part of) private details on the forum... Also, those delays do not directly depend on us and we have no way to push for specific transfers. The good news is that we're almost over with this.

What I wish Mt.Gox Support would have said:

I believe that Magiclatux talked to you on IRC (Just about now) about this... Now since we cannot obviously give the details of all your transactions here on this forum I would like however to remind you that things are not as simple as you may think.

You won't avoid government scrutiny by sending a 9999.99 USD wire or send 1,000 USD every day during 10 Days, Or send 1,000 then 2,000, then 1,000.... and so on on a very short period of time. While all of these are each time below the 10,0000 USD Mark, government official ALSO make sure to check the "total" amount of withdraws you made within a certain period of time.

We hope now that you better understand the situation and what's happening to your withdrawals.

Yeah i've waited roughly 14 days for a small transfer from gox myself, I hate to say it I really like how the exchange works at gox but if theres no changes soon I'll be moving to a different exchange as well.

Move your operations to another exchange.  Bitfloor is great, but pretty much any other exchange is better than MTGox... because any other exchange can give you the money they owe you, MTGox clearly can not.

Watching MtGox reply without addressing anything is mind-blowing, not to mention scary.

I've stopped using gox and I was doing quite a bit of selling btc on gox. I suggest you do too.  I realize that may not be an easy solution for some, but eventually it has to happen if they are not responsive to the problem.

He didn't move any coins or sign any messages though.  All he did was suggest that to do so would be reckless, something I can't agree with if the objective can be accomplished merely by signing some messages using an airgapped computer.  I even suggested in e-mail that he sign messages and then use trusted representatives under NDA to claim on his behalf the number of BTC proven, if there was even a remote chance he didn't want the specific list of MtGox BTC identified in public on the block chain (something the customer base can probably appreciate as well as MtGox).  He agreed it was a good idea, but to my knowledge, has never done it.  If he in fact has though, I will strike out any claim that this is an outstanding issue.  But the mere fact that he "e-mailed me" doesn't satisfy the request, certainly not for the bitcoin community at large.

Edit: I just got on Facebook and noticed a MtGox press release about new availability of US wires.  If this means in any remote sense that people can start withdrawing again (given reasonable identity requirements commensurate with the balance being withdrawn), and I become convinced that people aren't being forced to unreasonably wait for their money, then I would be happy to notate any critical postings I have made recently that the issues are resolved.

Mark already replied to you by e-mail for that.

To the best of my knowledge, Mt. Gox has not offered a single credible response to claims that it is delaying the initiation of wire transfers.

All of the apologies recently offered by Mt. Gox center around Dwolla.  People complain about delayed bank wires, and the answer has invariably been "Dwolla".  It may as well be "More Cowbell", or "42", or "potassium hydroxide", because as everyone knows, Dwolla is completely irrelevant to bank wires.

And how about moving some bitcoins or signing a text message with private keys to prove ownership of BTC?  Too difficult?  Too busy?  This would help perception, but it is a simple avenue not being pursued.

I genuinely wish for Mt. Gox's success, but believing that something is seriously wrong over at Mt. Gox is reasonable given what's on the radar.  Just sayin!

Please stop spreading false rumors pretty much everywhere on this forum. If you could please focus on one thread it will make is MUCH easier for everyone to follow the overall conversation and for us to explain the situation, which by the way has been already explained here on this forum many times!

B/c MtGox might be running a scam

Just a bump, bump, bump.

Dwolla transfers finally cleared after 2 weeks but the bank wire (yeah that option I idiotically paid $40 extra for) still hasn't even been processed.  No ETA, no processing, no funds. 

So if Dwolla is causing delays in bank wires then how is it that my Dwolla requests got funded faster than the bank wire?

Please check the link here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.981278

such a bullshit how come you guys cannot process 600$ for 3 weeks anybody who is reading that  i wouldnt process more then 300-400 with them just in case u will never see them again its not a lot of money

From the thread that Gox linked to:


Could it be that you're seeing that "5% flow-on effect" that they refer to?

I don't understand what that means, or why problems with Dwolla would affect unrelated US Dollar wire transfers.

Dwolla is it's own issue, I'm referring to basic wire transfers.

It's not just large withdrawals. I've been waiting on a $200 dwolla withdrawal for almost 2 weeks now.

So if Gox has a large stockpile of BTC and insufficient USD/fiat to cover a large withdrawal, which bank would they approach to do that currency conversion?

You know they use banks that send wires, it's digital money. They don't have a scrooge mcduck pile of USD and euros and whatever else. the banks can easily and fairly cheaply convert the currency on the fly to whatever. Gox probably uses a brokerage house that can do it much much more cheaply, or they've contracted with one that is completely and totally inept.

Gox, has it ever come to mind you should start compensating your customers for lost due to your incompetence ?

Yeah, that would work very similarly to #2. I'd like to think an exchange wouldn't let itself get in that situation though. ><

Make that 3 most likely scenarios.

3) MT Gox is insolvent on the USD side, and they need to wait for other clients to deposit additional USD before they can process large withdrawals.

Yeah, I have to say that even an international wire shouldn't be so delayed if the sender is properly verified. There are two main issues I can see that would explain the MT Gox situation:

1) MT Gox is getting extra scrutiny from Japanese regulators, such that they are performing extra vetting and doing so in a slow manner. Dealing in a virtual product and wiring many different entities money without being a registered bank or financial company.

2) MT Gox is keeping the majority of their non-bitcoin funds in an interest bearing account that trades a withdrawal delay for higher interest rate. They have a smaller slush pool to deal with small withdrawals but large withdrawal requests would require transferring funds from the interest account (that could take a couple of business weeks). If they were being very stingy on how much they remove from the interest bearing account then there would be an almost perpetual 2 weekish delay for large withdrawals. In practice, it would be a bit of a lottery on who gets stuck waiting as MT Gox would probably be withdrawing a bit more than the minimum needed to fulfill the immediate requests. So the backlog gets fulfilled and then a percentage of the large withdrawal requests made afterwards.

If it is #2, I'm surprised they haven't restructured it to be less of a pain.

I must regrettably inform you that due to unknown circumstances your sarcasm detector is broken sir !

They don't investigate shiat when you send/receive over 10K. I wire 250-300K around for a ship to refuel at foreign ports. It's a simple form(s) that is automatically done by a computer. They just have to file the form. They don't have to hold the transaction to file it, only report it.  It's the same thing in the US. Wire transfers are virtually instant. Assuming someone actually processes them.

After you find an alternative (if you actually do), isn't a lawsuit against Dwolla applicable, like what TradeHill's doing?
I mean, their lack of will to cooperate is causing harm to you and your customers.
Doesn't their TOS establish a minimum time for transfers or something that could be used?

Dood, it is AML. Once you cross the $10 000 limit it automatically kicks in due to US gov regulations.

No US citizen can have more than 10k in foreign bank accounts without filing tax reports, or at least that was something I read in another thread

No solvency issues here, move on

Sorry that is a load of garbage.
1) While you may have convinced your customers that week long delays are unacceptable on wires they aren't.  Due to your inability to get a wire done in <14 days I needed to have funds wired to me from my brokerage.  I requested a $20K wire at 8AM and it cleared by noon.  A week later I requested an $85K wire and it cleared within 6 hours.  

2) While an international wire may take longer it shouldn't be taking 19 days longer.  That is whole point of AML verification.  My bank account is AML verified.  My MtGox exchange account is AML verified.  How much investigation can one possibly due in 19 days.  You have my info it either checks out or it doesn't.  You never asked for more info to aid your investigation.  I mean how many times can you look at my utility bill over the course of 19 days?

3) If my funds are being held for an investigation (which I don't think they are) are employees of your company engaging in a criminal conspiracy here?

Note: this was taken from email between me & MtGox.  I would rather not share the original email (w/ personal and account information) in the open but if MtGox disputes this I would be happy to send copies to a mod.

Are you really advising your customer on how to avoid an AML investigation?  
Should the Japanese regulators be made aware of this?

I doubt your customer support is stupid enough to openly document a conspiracy to avoid AML/KYC procedures in a trouble ticket.  The reality is that this delay has nothing to do w/ AML does it?  Still since be both know this isn't due to any regulatory requirement I would be happy to use BitInstant (I hear they can actually payout funds they owe).   I don't feel it is fair to ask me to pay the $240 in transfer fees because you couldn't do your job.

Credit my account the bitinstant fees, cancel all requests and I will take my funds and not come back.  To tell a customer that they need to pay MORE in fees because YOU can't do your job is beyond insulting.

Watch it dood.

The forum is owned by Gox so I would censor myself. 

(sub)

Dear DeathAndTaxes

I am not sure if you understand the process here. You are requesting us to send money to you from Japan to the US via an usual Wire transfer. If your first two one went just fine it was because they were below 10,000 USD or not reaching in total 10,000USD, but! Requesting more and more withdrawals made you reach this 10,000 USD limit within a certain laps of time and you know that, regardless of whoever you are, the 10,000 USD limit trigger some more "investigation" from Banks and other authorities which explain the some delays and this of course is totally out of our control. An US to US Transfer is much easier... But a JP to US transfer is slightly more complicated and trigger many alarms when it reach 10,000 USD within a certain period of time.

I can't speak for him but ...

In my case this is the 4th wire.  All exactly the same.  Same bank, same instructions, same account, same AML docs.
The first two went fast, third one took over two weeks before you even submitted it (and when submitted it cleared quickly in 5 days).
The fourth one hasn't been submitted yet.  

I am not sure if you know this but ... a bank wire can't be transferred if you don't give it to your bank.  That is kinda step #1.  

So the question is why are you intentionally NOT sending the wire instructions to your bank?

Dwolla?  AML/KYC?  Wrong instructions?  I say bullshit!  Hell they aren't even good lies.

Ahh shit, time to trade up to a couple Jalapenos...

Did you open a ticket? And what is the Ticket number to check what's going on. I am not telling this is your case, but we see many mistakes made by users when filling the withdrawal process that in some case will make the overall process very long.

Is Mt. Gox hiring any customer services reps?  I could use a part-time job atm and I'd love to be able to tell people what is really going on.

Edit:  Post #2016.  Henceforth, my difficulty will increase.

That doesn't explain one damn thing. Bitcoin is nothing to banks. Mtgox isn't even a gnat in the financial world. It's a microbe.

What about wire transfers? What's your excuse there? I wire huge amounts of money all over the world with far far more AML regs and yet they don't take more than 15 minutes to do a wire and receive a confirmation of reception. Yet mtgox takes a week to even start it.

Let's face it gox has extremely poor liquidity and that's usually the red flag that any financial institution is about to go under.

You all should be prepping your resumes rather than running the PR bullshiat here. None of us are buying it.

The rats are jumping your sinking ship.

Yes and Yes and Yes and Yes... We are working on fixing this Dwolla situation and working on other alternative to make sure that something like today's Dwolla Situation will not reproduce itself. and PLEASE remember that we are STILL WAITING Dwolla's reply on whether or not they are willing to continue to work with Bitcoin and Mt.Gox in generla... It is now around 15 days that we have no news from them.

As for an explanation we already did it here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-mtgox-withdrawal-clarification-87086.

Remember what Bitcoin is and how Bitcoin is perceived by Banks and Institutions around the world. At one point we had to Stop SEPA and Euro deposit/withdrawal became difficult while everything went smoothly with USD, now, like 2weiX underline it, the situation is solved for EUR and we will solve the Dwolla situation as well.

I feel for you. Have you listed yourself on the local cash exchanges?

http://tradeyourbitcoin.com
http://localbitcoins.com
http://btcnearme.com

Trader Steve
Say "NO" to banks!

Yeah that probably should come down. We continue to accept it, but immediately buy BTC at market price and move off exchange.  It cuts into the margin but we have been doing it as a courtesy for some of our sellers while trying to educate them on the advantages of direct sales.  I am sure Mt.Gox loves it.  Double profit!

Update:  removed.  we will honor a couple trades still in the air but no new trades.

It seems as though your post (the OP in your fast cash thread) still advertises buying Gox dollars.

I realize it's not the same, but SpendBitcoins.com gift codes/cards are quick and can be used to buy most things that cash would buy.

My Dwolla withdrawal took 11 days (7 business days)
My wire transfer is currently at 15 days (11 buisness days) and counting...

We aren't ... anymore.  Just trying to get the last of our money out of here.  

We sell coins directly and use the exchanges as a backstop when our BTC position becomes too long for our comfort.   The funds being delayed, obfuscated, and lied about are only a fraction of what we purchased, thankfully.

Having a steady and discounted source of coins is part of a bigger plan.  

I have been happy with Bitfloor so far... been fairly flawless and I've done several ACH withdrawals without incident or delay.  Glad I spent the time getting my automated platform converted over, which was a fairly painless process in and of itself.

And I wonder why more ppl have not caught on to being Gox'ed. These fuckers are fraudulent!

On another note, There has been multiple times within the last ~6mo that the price per btc randomly dropped to like $2 per btc... then back up to normal price... They have closed my account and friends accounts for no reason and KEPT THE BTC.

Why are they popular, because of these forums... and others that have no idea of their history.

Gox, go eat a bowl of dicks!

This is the same question I asked myself not too long ago.  I go directly from asking myself, "why are they lying to us", to concluding that there must be a reason they are lying to us, and that reason can't be good.

An honest and straightforward business should have no problem giving honest and straightforward answers.  We can't even get them to move some BTC (or sign a message) to prove they have it, and that should be simple and easy and immune to alleged AML/KYC/regulatory hurdles, and could be the first thing they could do to build faith.

Just curious, why are you still willing to buy this musical chairs nightmare off people for 97.5 cents on the dollar?

I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with AML/KYC.  I am level 2 verified, and I was told level 3 wouldn't help speed the process up.  

This part of the quote is telling:

in the past Mt.Gox has indicated that when funds are frozen due to AML they CAN'T cancel/refund the funds.  Even on amounts as trivial as <$100 coming from Dwolla they insist the funds have to remain frozen.  Mt.Gox giving me (and Inaba as another example) the option to cancel, pay even more fees converting to BTC and withdrawing without delay all but guarantees this has nothing to do with AML/KYC.

AML/KYC is a nightmare but Mt.Gox hiding behind it (either explicitly or implicitly) is an abomination.

I would point out that in my last round of 2 week delays Mt.Gox never contacted me once to verify source of funds, ask questions regarding my financial activity, or make any other inquiries.  It was simply delayed day 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14, and then BAM the wire was finally submitted to their originating bank and I had my money 4 days later.

It is no wonder a bank wire "takes 19 days" when the originating bank doesn't even get the request (per their wire confirmation) until 15 days after I requested it.   I mean they had any more information on day 15 that they didn't have on day 1.  So what happened on day 2 to 14?

Now Mt.Gox claims this is due to Dwolla and if that is true, STOP ACCEPTING DWOLLA.  I am paying >$40 for an international wire and yet funds flow slower than a paper check sent by ground mail.  If Dwolla issues are constraining their ability to issue wires in a timely manner then they should accept Dwolla has failed and prioritize international wires.  The only possible scenario that I can think of is they are funding their Dwolla account via a US bank and using bank wires to get the funds their.  They could be running into wire limits imposed by their Japanese bank due to the volume of Dwolla they need (Dwolla funding has become very onsided, all outgoing).  Once again this is just a guess because they haven't provided any real information.

The complete and utter lack of any transparency is worse than the delays.   WHY EXACTLY does it take them 14 days to give the already approved (months ago) wire instructions to their OWN BANK.  This has been going on for two months now and delays are getting longer not shorter.  Customer have a right to know WHY funds are being delayed.

R:  If the post seems hostile it isn't directed at you.  Obviously you can't answer some of the questions they are more rhetorical in nature.

withdrawing 50k€/month, never waited > 1week for SEPA.

D&T, the points you make are fair. You got us wondering: what are the solutions to the problem? IMO, Charlie Shrem will bring us the solution. He mentioned that BitInstant will "make Dwolla redundant" through a deposit and withdrawal system they plan to implement at BitInstant. Shrem believes their major hurdles are finding a KYC verification team and getting ACH clearance.

Looks like your money has "the Gox"

Rant mode on.


Their response:


1) 3-5 days?  I wish.  Hell I would pay you a bonus if my same day wire "only" took 3-5 days.  Is 3-5 days the gox version of BFL 4-6 weeks?

2) Use another funding option?  What funding option?  Bitcoins?  Kinda useless to be an exchange where the recommend method for cashing out fiat is Bitcoins which you take to another exchange.  Please tell me the funding option I should use.  It can't be Dwolla.  It can't be a bank wire.  Is Liberty Reserve at 3.75% loss the "solution".

3) IF I cancel the withdraw and buy back Bitcoins will you refund me the useless 1% (0.5% selling the coins for funds which can go nowhere and then another 0.5% buying my own damn coins back)?  I know you won't but just pointing our how utterly shady it is to profit double at your customers expense for your own incompetence.



Rant mode off.