Topic: So I met a guy who makes Algorithmic Trading Programs for High Frequency Trading (Read 7337 times)

Well, the weird thing is that altho you THINK that was a COUNCIOUS desicion the actual consiousness machinery doesn't come into action untill after the muscles got their command to move.
So it seems consciousness is an afterthourgh to your subconciousnes's action.
Or so the research says.

There was this test conducted (not sure where to find it now, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will seems to agree with me) that presented a choice to the test taker.
The test taker then had to point out their choice.
And they found that the choice was already made before the subject could become aware of their choice.
So conciousness may be an illusion of control!

Same goes for reasoning.
There is this part of your brain that is specialized in comming up with explanations based on available information.
It does not care if the reasoning is sane or complete or for that matter even possible in reality (checking that is the task of another region of the brain).

There were some very interesting tests done with people with split brains (the region in question resides on one side of the brain)
By feeding both halfs of the brain different information one half of the brain (that included that mechanism) was coaxed to make up a BS story about what the other part was doing.
See the 3rd paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain .
What is left out here is that the half that delt with the chicken contained the 'explanation mechanism' and so it made up a story that included the chicken (because that information was available) to explain the other halfs actions.

So we make up some guestimate explanations and THEN have to check them against reality and available information.
But we are quite capable of convincing ourselfs of stories we make up ourselfs!

I find all this very interesting when watching a phenomenon like bitcoin and people doing all this decision making

The fact that there are both unconscious and conscious movements of muscles doesn't negate the idea of voluntary choice and free will.  Your body can react to stimuli and will move before your conscious recognizes this, but you are also capable of deciding to move your arm in advance of actually moving it.  If you don't believe me:  Keep your arms perfectly still.  Now think "I am going to move my arm" but don't move it.  NOW move it.  Did it work?  Did you have the free will to move your arm or is every move of ours predestined and ordered for us?  Or is this a trick question since I TOLD you to move it? 

I hate to jump into a post where so many things are going on and so late, but here I am anyways.

I would stop talking with a guy a just met at an event as soon as I heard something like this.  "Here's the amount average people earn, but I earn 5 times more, I'm awesome".  People who are exceptional don't brag about being exceptional.  You're wasting your time if you want to follow this guy.

Haha, but can you define voluntary?
There has been a lot of discussion about the concept of free will as of late.
It turns out the concept of free will is terribly hard to define in detail.

For instance, for a voluntary movement of your arm, your arms muscles will receive a 'move' signal PRIOR to the concious part of your brain processing it.
You THINK you took a voluntary choice, yet your arm moved before you were aware of your choice.
So, is this free will, and if so, who's will is it?

And since the term voluntary relies on the concept of free will, what does that tell us about voluntary trades?

Holy crap what a load of bull.
You expect peacefull cooperation in a place where you make money off of other peoples bad decisions?

"Con-gra-tu-lations, good Sir. You've just aquired all my moneys. I'll hand them over to you with a smile on my face. I bid you farewell."

I think it's you who doesn't understand the basics.
free market = dog eats dog.

Signals, the way you describe them, are nonsense.
You expect the market to tell you "hey, now you can make money".
But that money comes from someone else who has to lose it.
That person does not want to lose their money and that makes them a direct competitor of your profits.
You have no 'right' to a certain 'signal'. The signals you talk of are just observations in certain situations. They are not universal laws of physics!
If you think there should be some signals that will tell you the one and only correct way then you have no idea what is going on.
Signals are observations and NEED INTERPRETATION which is your responsibility, not the markets.
Demanding some form of undistorted signals is like demanding a pair of aces at a blackjack table.
It is just not how it works.

in some parts of Africa, those particularly free parts, you can. Here's to hoping the ann rand types move to Southern Sudan. No big government to worry about there. Freedom got an AK true, but it is a small price to pay for utopia. I'm willing to contribute to one way tickets. Kindness of my heart and hoping you fulfill your dreams and all. 

The concept of the "free market" is very well defined.  Rothbard defines it here, the wikipedia definition is clear and accurate, Mises talks extensively about what markets are and what the "free" market is in Human Action, and I would simply define it as the sum of all voluntary trades and exchanges between individuals and privately owned companies.

Can i buy slaves ? I Really wish i could.

I hope free market happens.

A monetary system will consistently incur corruption, abuse, waste, fraud and destruction. I suggest you look into a resource based economy if you really want to end this class of problem. You can learn more about it at www.thevenusproject.com and www.thezeitgeistmovement.com. Check out the documentary films Zeitgeist: Addendum and Zeitgeist Moving Forward also. As evidenced by recent events, the monetary system is not going to be sustainable in any meaningful time frame.

If you can agree a price with a buyer/seller.

How does a "Free Market" system work in regards to banking? 

Maybe that's the simpler question to ask.

False.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/tobin-tax-anyone-want-to-help-me-build-the-tobin-tax-website-25154

Does not free market mean being able to sell/buy whatever I want at whatever price I want? That is pretty much my definition of free market. No floor/ceiling on prices and no restrictions on what to sell/buy. ??

I've challenged this person to define "Free Market" many times.  He never does it.  Yet, I've just challenged him again to it, let's hope he's up for it this time; yet I sense he won't be.  Just like Hayek, Freidman, Hazlitt and others never define it.  Because if they did one would realize that it doesn't exist or has no tangible meaning.  It is a blast of rhetorical hot air that politicians, economists and other vested interests use to dupe a populace into trusting "the market" (a body dominated by the largest fish composed of massive power players, cartels and monopolies) over the population.  If you put it in those terms then obviously nobody would sign up for it.

Well if you don't believe me that's fine.  Nothing I can do about that.  But,

I'm not so childish to tell everyone who doesn't agree with me that they don't know what they are talking about and are economic illiterates as you are basically doing here.  I just try and make my points as clearly and well-though out as possible and expect the same of others. 

I've given you previous opportunity to clarify your positions on topics in the past.  You have declined to do so with any depth or to answer my subsequent questions on the topic when you do so.

For instance I've challenged you to define your oft-used canard of "The Free Market".  You have yet to do so.  I know that is a rather large project and might take a few pages to write but if you aren't up to the task then please don't reference this as if you think we all have a clear idea of what you mean.  We don't.  There is no singular definition of this term yet you use it incessantly.

Please define your terms.  Please try and make 1 point per post rather than alluding to 4 or 5 points per post.

Thank you.

If a bunch of millionaires and billionaires want to gamble and have an exchange to which they can stab each other in the back then let them be my guest.  It is keeping them away from the 'host body' of the Real Economy that should be the prerogative.  I'm sure their interest would either wane or be snuffed out, with regards to HFT, from not being able to suck off the "printing press" that constitutes the Real Economy to which all of us pay the toll either directly or indirectly.  Of course we have to get over our childlike understanding that 'Taxes are Evil' and should adopt the adult and socially constructive approach, which is to 'tax evil' (ie, things that are socially destructive).


At risk of rising the ire of the Keynes haters (those that can't agree with anything he said) I'll just leave this right here:
"Speculators may do no harm as bubbles on a steady stream of enterprise. But the position is serious when enterprise becomes the bubble on a whirlpool of speculation".
-JMK

Overly simplistic statement is overly simplistic.

I don't enjoy the Federal Reserve at all; why should I?  I'm not a rich Wall St. banker who are the beneficiaries of the existing system.  A system that was set up by and for them by the spineless dupe President Wilson.  That is the problem with the Fed, if it was chartered with a nationalistic interest for promoting economic growth and development like the 1st and 2nd Banks of the United States then we would be having a different conversation.  For those chanting "End the Fed", I say "Nationalize the Fed" and use it for the public good as we have before with previous banks and how many other industrialized modern nations have done so in their best interests.

Point being is that the "free market" myth is oft-employed in defense of these actions, as it was as a defense mechanism against the Tobin Tax (and taxes in general regardless of the merit or lack thereof of the tax in question).  It's the selective use of this myth that is one half of the problem.  The other half being (as we've gone over at length about) is that it (the "Free Market") never existed and, worse yet, is insofar undefinable; at least, to the challenge I've made of defining it nobody has been willing to do so.  From what I've seen I'd include you as a 'true believer' of the Free Market.  So please, please, please define what you mean by a Free Market on a new thread.  Maybe we can end this confusion once and for all.

The progressive and conservative policies have taken us down this path?  How so?  What path are you specifically referring to?

Excellent point my friend.

Nobody is immune to this fraudulent behavior going on.  We are all paying for it.  This "printing press" that the man I spoke to is not a printing press at all, it is a financial drain on the real economy.   We already have enough problems without minting a new millionaire a day in this 'gold rush of algorithmic trading' for LITERALLY DOING NOTHING OF ANY PRODUCTIVE OR SOCIAL CONSIDERATION! 

After a period of brief fallout, I'm more committed than ever in trying to raise awareness to this scam.

For those that would like to help and have any skills to lend, please send me a PM.  Thanks.

These aren't day traders, it's algorithmic trading.  BIG difference.  You know there is a 'market failure' when they want to build an oil-derrick in the middle of the Atlantic just to get a slight edge on currency exchanges.  It's utter madness.  For those of you who like Max Keiser, he recently glossed in one of this weeks broadcasts that algorithmic trading and HFT has broken the price discovery mechanism that should exist in markets.

Indeed "Free market" is code, I'm glad you can see that fraud.  Free Market is only selectively used, it truly has no friends or lobbyists of its own (other than the 'true believers' that constitute a large percentage of this forum) due to the built in class conflict that will and always will exist in any system of political economy.  Meaning that when it benefits the big players to use the 'Free Market' myth to continue their exploitation then it is employed, but equally they have no problem taking bailout money and socializing the losses.