So we tried out Lightning tonight at ROOM77 - page 2.

kiklo

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Quote from: Carlton Banks on April 02, 2017, 05:15:38 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on April 02, 2017, 04:58:00 PM

It only uses bitcoin for its final reconciliation. You can completely work with LN transactions (even spending from them) without ever involving the bitcoin blockchain.

No

Bitcoin is used before, during and after Lightning transactions are sent. Not just after, as you falsely state.

1 Bitcoin transaction is used to open a channel to start with

That transaction is used to check that the BTC being sent over Lightning is the real thing (how else do you stop people just faking that they have some BTC on the Lightning Network, huh?)

1 Bitcoin transaction closes the channel

Furthermore, Lightning Network isn't a blockchain at all, it uses Bitcoin's blockchain, and that's the only blockchain involved. You don't know much about it, you need to actually be informed on a subject before you can make such confident comments.

LOL,

Sorry CB ,
QuestionAuthority is correct, LN can be used with any segwit infected Blockchain.
Which is why LTC and others are also voting on the segwit trojan.

LN does nothing but place a timelock on the BTC or LTC or Altcoin, so no one can move it.
Once those timelocks expire the parties may move those BTC or LTC or Altcoin to different addresses,
unless of course, the locks had expired early , or were never actually there to begin with.
Any 51% attack can fund a LN channel , and then rewrite the blockchain , so the BTC was never time locked, Ie: Counterfeiting the LN Funds Wink

FYI:
BTC & Crypto onchain transactions Ended Counterfeiting
LN/Banking Cartels Offchain Transaction brings back the ability to Counterfeit funds, and fractional reserve system to Crypto

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: Carlton Banks on April 02, 2017, 05:15:38 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on April 02, 2017, 04:58:00 PM

It only uses bitcoin for its final reconciliation. You can completely work with LN transactions (even spending from them) without ever involving the bitcoin blockchain.

No

Bitcoin is used before, during and after Lightning transactions are sent. Not just after, as you falsely state.

1 Bitcoin transaction is used to open a channel to start with

That transaction is used to check that the BTC being sent over Lightning is the real thing (how else do you stop people just faking that they have some BTC on the Lightning Network, huh?)

1 Bitcoin transaction closes the channel

Furthermore, Lightning Network isn't a blockchain at all, it uses Bitcoin's blockchain, and that's the only blockchain involved. You don't know much about it, you need to actually be informed on a subject before you can make such confident comments.

And you need to learn how to read dumbass. I said it's a scripting language fool. Reconciliation means that it uses Bitcoin as a ledger only not for the transaction. You're so fucking stupid why do you even bother reading?

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on April 02, 2017, 04:58:00 PM

It only uses bitcoin for its final reconciliation. You can completely work with LN transactions (even spending from them) without ever involving the bitcoin blockchain.

No

Bitcoin is used before, during and after Lightning transactions are sent. Not just after, as you falsely state.

1 Bitcoin transaction is used to open a channel to start with

That transaction is used to check that the BTC being sent over Lightning is the real thing (how else do you stop people just faking that they have some BTC on the Lightning Network, huh?)

1 Bitcoin transaction closes the channel

Furthermore, Lightning Network isn't a blockchain at all, it uses Bitcoin's blockchain, and that's the only blockchain involved. You don't know much about it, you need to actually be informed on a subject before you can make such confident comments.

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on April 02, 2017, 01:27:24 PM

Ripple is not decentralized trustless, so not a 'real crypto'

That's not true. I don't think anyone on this forum ever really understood ripple. Yes, some banks are buying into the idea because it's a smart move. It's a direct point-to-point settlement system with no central operator, a fully decentralized network and provides transaction immutability and information redundancy just like bitcoin. It will work with any and between any currency worldwide (that includes all cryptos). It's a blockchain product just like all the others popping up.

You do realize Lightning Network isn't bitcoin, right? It's a private network of participants that agree to use smart contract scripting language to settle debts. It only uses bitcoin for its final reconciliation. You can completely work with LN transactions (even spending from them) without ever involving the bitcoin blockchain. Well, that's just another blockchain based payment system product like ripple. It ain't bitcoin.

franky1

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Quote from: kiklo on April 02, 2017, 04:44:44 PM

Anyone that reads the LN Whitepaper , can see stealing BTC from LN, requires nothing more than evading their time locks.
So you know , you can shove your No where the sun don't shine.

there are a few techniques
even i wouldnt risk more then $60 and definitely not with someone i didnt trust.
and even then i wouldnt be comfortable

to me its just a side service. not something that should be treated as bitcoin. just a side service.. like escrow

segwit on the other hand. now that is a think of empty gestures and a shambles of code just made to set up a tier network and delay real onchain growth to try to push people into thinking LN is the end goal...
.... right up until the point that people use LN and then realise its limitations and then transfer out to sidechains(altcoins)

kiklo

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Quote from: spartacusrex on April 02, 2017, 02:51:29 PM

Gonna' have to add.. Since this is really VERY cool..

I'm seeing a scenario play out in slow motion :

So your bar runs a LN node.

Your customers have LN payment channels with you, on your LN node.

They can now pay you instantly with BTC, and you can refund them instantly. Either of you can cash out on chain at any time.

...Now.

Another bar starts an LN node.

Your node and the other node communicate.

Your customers can now pay at ANY bar with an LN node connected to yours, and VICE VERSA.. so their customers can spend at yours.

All instantly. Off chain. Trustless. With BTC.

.. it's pretty awesome. ( Come on Franky.. even you must be a little impressed..?)

..

( Just thinking about Vegas, and all those casinos.. )

LOL, don't wet your pants over it, it is not new.

It is called Banking, fractional reserves won't be far behind.

Like when you write a check or use a Credit card, you are trading fake money , in the hopes they honor it , when you need to withdraw.

Nothing new , old scam different package.

Cool

FYI:
Vegas could just let your deposit your BTC into an account and they give you an offchain representation of the value to use for your gambling, and let you cash out when finished.
The Plus side to this way, if they don't honor your withdrawal , you can Sue them.

If LN screws up , which it will , who are you going to sue, to try and reclaim your money.
Cause the other person is going to claim , you never had full possession of their funds anyway, so you had no actual right to claim them. Tongue

By using LN service as a 3rd party in the transactions, it blocks you from being able to sue the other person if they cheat you.
LN will no doubt have a disclaimer denying you the ability to sue them, so you are fucked, when LN screws up.

kiklo

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Quote from: Lauda on April 02, 2017, 05:14:31 AM

Quote from: kiklo on April 02, 2017, 03:36:16 AM

LN is not safe at all until segwit is activated, so you have to trust all of your LN Clients Completely.

Testnet has Segwit activated. Read the thread.

Quote from: kiklo on April 02, 2017, 03:36:16 AM

Counterfeiting and stealing BTC thru LN is not only a possibility but a probability.

No.

LN IS NOT SAFE UNTIL SEGWIT IS ACTIVATED. (On the Actual BTC Blockchain)
That is an accurate Statement.

Testnet is play money.

@Lauda ,
aside from being a paid shill, you don't have authority for jack.

Anyone that reads the LN Whitepaper , can see stealing BTC from LN, requires nothing more than evading their time locks.
So you know , you can shove your No where the sun don't shine.

Cool

Malooka

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on April 02, 2017, 01:12:58 PM

Ripple is ready to go and way past testing, why not use it instead? Besides, I trust Stefan Thomas (ripple) much more than the town crier for the failed Bitcoin Foundation pack of thieving liars.

Because Ripple is a bank coin.

coolcoinz

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This is great news. The only issue I had with Bitcoin was the problem with confirmation times. Two years ago when this first came up the most common response was "don't wait for full confirmation, we have software that acknowledges payments after 1 confirmation." Years later even that single confirmation needed hours to come through. With this resolved nothing stands in the way of our Bitcoin becoming the fastest and most secure payment system on the planet.

franky1

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Quote from: spartacusrex on April 02, 2017, 02:51:29 PM

.. it's pretty awesome. ( Come on Franky.. even you must be a little impressed..?)
..
( Just thinking about Vegas, and all those casinos.. )

never had issues with LN.. AS A VOLUNTARTY SIDE SERVICE
but i also see passed the utopia

spartacusrex

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Gonna' have to add.. Since this is really VERY cool..

I'm seeing a scenario play out in slow motion :

So your bar runs a LN node.

Your customers have LN payment channels with you, on your LN node.

They can now pay you instantly with BTC, and you can refund them instantly. Either of you can cash out on chain at any time.

...Now.

Another bar starts an LN node.

Your node and the other node communicate.

Your customers can now pay at ANY bar with an LN node connected to yours, and VICE VERSA.. so their customers can spend at yours.

All instantly. Off chain. Trustless. With BTC.

.. it's pretty awesome. ( Come on Franky.. even you must be a little impressed..?)

..

( Just thinking about Vegas, and all those casinos.. )

spartacusrex

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Quote from: joecooin on April 01, 2017, 11:23:02 PM

For many years now we have been accepting Bitcoin (with zero confirmations and directly, not through Bitpay) at our bar/restaurant in Berlin. Today we have deployed a testnet lightning node and accept testnet coins via the lightning network from a few customers to get a glimpse into the future. And that future looks shining bright!

- No more waiting for the customer's transaction being broadcasted, transactions arrive in milliseconds, not seconds (or sometimes minutes in case the customer uses coinbase or another bank wallet).
- No more looking out for double spend attacks. Not even Peter Todd is going to RBF us on LN.
- No more confusion during times of malleabillity attacks. Transaction malleabillity is a thing of the past.
- Massively advanced privacy for us as well as our customers as only we can see the transactions on our payment channel.
- And we will finally be able to offer free-of-cost payments to our customers.

As a merchant I can tell you that every merchant on the planet wants this stuff. It is like after all these years Bitcoin shows that with LN it can live up to its promises in regards to efficiency, speed, irreversibility and privacy no matter how many people will use it.

Thanks to all the developers making this possible!

edit: pics http://imgur.com/a/64iwK

reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/62uw23/lightning_network_is_working_room77_is_accepting/

Wow..

Amazing! Congratulations for ACTUALLY sorting it out.

Well played Sir.
...

Quote from: jonald_fyookball on April 02, 2017, 01:27:24 PM

Ripple is not decentralized trustless, so not a 'real crypto'

Hello .. is that you Johnny.. ? Wink

jonald_fyookball

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Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political

Ripple is not decentralized trustless, so not a 'real crypto'

stdset

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on April 02, 2017, 01:12:58 PM

Ripple is ready to go and way past testing, why not use it instead? Besides, I trust Stefan Thomas (ripple) much more than the town crier for the failed Bitcoin Foundation pack of thieving liars.

The last time I read about Ripple it was all about trust. List of nodes that you trust to honestly maintain the ledger, without them investing PoW nor having a stake in the system. IOUs that you trust. It's quite the opposite to what cryptocurrencies are trying to achieve: minimize trust as much as possible. Did everything change since then?

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Ripple is ready to go and way past testing, why not use it instead? Besides, I trust Stefan Thomas (ripple) much more than the town crier for the failed Bitcoin Foundation pack of thieving liars.

Carlton Banks

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Quote from: ABCbits on April 02, 2017, 11:31:32 AM

LN is great idea if users have trust over the operator, but i think it won't work with the nature of bitcoin and many bitcoiner won't risk their coins/privacy for it.

Privacy is enhanced hugely using Lightning.

Quote from: ABCbits on April 02, 2017, 11:31:32 AM

It only works if the operator send the transaction to onchain regularly and can keep user privacy, otherwise the risks mentioned by other users will become true.

No it doesn't. BTC can remain in Lightning channels forever in cases where participants don't force one another to settle on-chain.

Quote from: ABCbits on April 02, 2017, 11:31:32 AM

Also, some bitcoiner fear LN because company/services will force their users use LN. I still think on-chain transaction better option than LN in most condition.

No-one can force you to use it, and given that your fears are uninformed FUD, you're forgetting about the benefits, and concentrating solely on imaginary downsides.

Explain why on-chain is "better in most conditions", and please learn how Lightning works before you do so

scox

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Heya, I'll be in berlin in around 2 months. Expecting to buy a round for all to test your btc merchant on high volumes lol.
See you then!

ABCbits

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Crypto Swap Exchange

LN is great idea if users have trust over the operator, but i think it won't work with the nature of bitcoin and many bitcoiner won't risk their coins/privacy for it.
It only works if the operator send the transaction to onchain regularly and can keep user privacy, otherwise the risks mentioned by other users will become true.

Also, some bitcoiner fear LN because company/services will force their users use LN. I still think on-chain transaction better option than LN in most condition.

manselr

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Good to see real progress being made in the middle of this FUD storm and the buggy unlimited ridiculousness. If only we could finally get segwit activated to bring bitcoin to the next level... sooner or later we will tho. If the remaining miners don't get with the program UASF will kick in.

Carlton Banks

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I think the fact that Lightning involves more trust (some attacks can be performed using Lightning's characteristics) is actually a good fit for its best purpose: bricks and mortar businesses, just like Room77.

The customers that go to Room77 all the time know the people working there, and the staff will know those customers. It's bad business to attack your own regular customers, and the clientele will run out of places to go shopping if they keep attempting attacks against places with good merchandise. So it's a little over-blown to say that Lightning is a big risk.

Online, it's a little different. I suspect middlemen Lightning processors, the infamous hubs, will be more popular on-line, especially with new or small businesses. But the centralisation criticism is overblown here too, there won't be any political or regulatory barriers to operating a hub style node, all you need is clients and cashflow. Competition amongst Lightning nodes should, therefore, be strong. (and of course, on-chain transactions will always a better option the higher the stakes are, no-one will be buying cars, houses, or making business deals on the Lightning network)

Topic: So we tried out Lightning tonight at ROOM77 - page 2. (Read 2520 times)