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Topic: So who the hell is still supporting BU? - page 10. (Read 29824 times)

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
February 18, 2017, 05:38:20 AM
Well, "big blockers" for me are the guys that want to stay on-chain even with microtransactions and want 8 MB or even larger blocks now - and so run Bitcoin Unlimited. Segwit means "bigger blocks than now", but not really big blocks (<4 MB).
I consider everything above 1 MB as 'big blocks'. This is due to the narrative of the 'small blockists' (to call them that) who want 1 MB or even less right now (see luke-jr BIP).

Yes, that would be an ideal solution. However I am not aware of an initiative that actually has the goal to convince the miners that are blocking Segwit from that kind of solution. If there is any and there are news about it, I would be glad with you or anybody else providing me a link to it ...
Well, you can't really convince the miners when there isn't a HF proposal that properly does this post-segwit. The only BIP that increases the block size sometime and builds on-top of Segwit is luke-jr's. However, that one does't see any growth until a few years into the future.

Price is tracking BU's odds to win. Bitcoin economic majority = market wants BU and on-chain scaling now.
Bullshit and you know it. The market gives zero fucks about this trashware called BU.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
February 18, 2017, 05:29:32 AM

*XT gets rekt*

*time passes*



*Classic gets rekt*

*time passes*


BU is going to win this fight.

Try to guess what happens next!   Cheesy

Yeah. You convinced me again. You find two measurements and extrapolate the future out of this. Great brain!
 Grin

Edit: So we should go long always at the end of every trend?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 18, 2017, 05:21:25 AM

*XT gets rekt*

*time passes*



*Classic gets rekt*

*time passes*


BU is going to win this fight.

Try to guess what happens next!   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 4214
Merit: 4458
February 18, 2017, 05:01:19 AM

coblee and gmaxwell do have a trick up their sleeve.
its called a bilateral split. commonly known as an intentional altcoin creation.

yep both know that they can cause a bilateral split even in a soft scenario
 If there is some reason when the users of Bitcoin would rather have it activate at 90% .. then even with the 95% rule the network could choose to activate it at 90% just by orphaning the blocks of the non-supporters until 95%+ of the remaining blocks signaled activation.

yep.. they are willing to cause an intentional altcoin to get segwit activated..even in a soft scenario

yet. if willing to go to the extremes of causing an alt to get what they want. they should have saved 2 years of bickering and just went with a PROPER full node and pool consensus which would not result naturally in an altcoin.
(but with the same stupid chance some numpty might want to push the issue into causing an altcoin, which they now admit is the same for soft)

that way by doing a full node AND pool consensus they could have also included the features the community really wanted in the first place. thus giving the entire network a real confidence of positive movement of onchain scaling.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
February 18, 2017, 04:57:18 AM
Price is tracking BU's odds to win. Bitcoin economic majority = market wants BU and on-chain scaling now.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 18, 2017, 04:55:50 AM
an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g.,  hour) to verify but is otherwise valid

Nobody is going to construct, much less accept and mine on, a block that takes 60 minutes to verify.

Exactly. Precisely my point. Now if nobody is going to construct, much less accept and mine on a block that takes 60 minutes to verify, then why are we in a panic over blocks that will take 60 minutes to verify?

As I said, mining incentives are already aligned in order to render the quadratic sig hash time issue a non-problem.

So now that you've correctly identified one of the blocks that will not be built atop, you still have not weighed in with which of the three blocks a rational miner would build atop. Care to guess?

No idea why you are babbling about nonsense like 60 minute verification times.  Might as well go full retard red herring and ask what happens if a 60 day or 60 year block happened.

The problem here is you have no idea where the grey area between reasonable and inordinate is, despite having the required knowledge spoon fed to you like a baby ("F2pool's ~1mb tx took 4 min on Electrum server, which would fall behind the network given ~2.5mb tx").

You don't even seem to be aware verification times vary according to the miners' node software and server hardware/network capabilities, nor of the fact such power imbalances may be used maliciously against other miners.  Did you sleep through the discussion about the GFOC?

Miners' decisions depend on their local conditions, counterparty obligations, goals, motivations, and levels of expertise, the amount of fees in the blocks, their software/hardware/network configuration/capabilities/limitations, what they expect other miners to do and/or their strategy for attacking other miners (game theory), etc.

It appears you are committed to remaining somewhere other than here in the real world where O(n^2) attacks are a problem, and going to stick with the wishful thinking, hand-waving, and "Because Mining Incentives!" slogan.

Good luck with that!   Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
February 18, 2017, 04:43:39 AM
Trying to be mostly neutral and searching for a unifying solution, I see SW supporters running out of convincing arguments and try hiding behind polemic and insult not only here but even in most SW loving forum there is lot of confusion

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5ukz58/segwit_is_a_softfork_to_miners_without_supporting/

+ all efforts to claim SW is THE no brainer solution and needs to be just waived through because core knows better and is fully tested and disclaimer free

+ seeing BU expands adoption (despite not 'fully' tested), SW stalls:

One can only conclude, so far, SW is Not the no brainer and needs either  to be entirely reviewed or abandoned.


Correct a Person Has No Brain if they Want Segwit.  Wink

Segwit Supporter   Cheesy



 Cool


FYI:
BTC miners will Block Segwit
LTC may not be so lucky,
Charlie Lee claims he can force segwit on them no matter how the miner vote.
http://www.newsbtc.com/2017/02/17/charlie-lee-potentially-enforcing-litecoin-segwit-activation-bitcoiners-concerned/
Also threatening to change their PoW,
https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5uf679/charlie_lee_people_dont_realize_what_segwit_is/ddtrbxe/
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
February 18, 2017, 04:02:34 AM
Trying to be mostly neutral and searching for a unifying solution, I see SW supporters running out of convincing arguments and try hiding behind polemic and insult not only here but even in most SW loving forum there is lot of confusion

https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/5ukz58/segwit_is_a_softfork_to_miners_without_supporting/

+ all efforts to claim SW is THE no brainer solution and needs to be just waived through because core knows better and is fully tested and disclaimer free

+ seeing BU expands adoption (despite not 'fully' tested), SW stalls:

One can only conclude, so far, SW is Not the no brainer and needs either  to be entirely reviewed or abandoned.
legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 1640
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
February 18, 2017, 03:27:17 AM
an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g.,  hour) to verify but is otherwise valid

Nobody is going to construct, much less accept and mine on, a block that takes 60 minutes to verify.

Exactly. Precisely my point. Now if nobody is going to construct, much less accept and mine on a block that takes 60 minutes to verify, then why are we in a panic over blocks that will take 60 minutes to verify?

As I said, mining incentives are already aligned in order to render the quadratic sig hash time issue a non-problem.

So now that you've correctly identified one of the blocks that will not be built atop, you still have not weighed in with which of the three blocks a rational miner would build atop. Care to guess?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 18, 2017, 02:44:45 AM
an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g.,  hour) to verify but is otherwise valid

Nobody is going to construct, much less accept and mine on, a block that takes 60 minutes to verify.

You'd already know this if you weren't an ignorant bumbling idiot.

You can't even dog paddle yet, so stay in the kiddie pool and out of the deep end, OK?   Kiss
legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 1640
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
February 18, 2017, 01:48:24 AM
The incentives are what they are. Sure some miner can play the role of 'attacker', and include a transaction that takes an inordinate amount of time to validate. My claim is that incentives are aligned to render this a non-problem.

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop?

Your question is poorly constructed because you do not define what qualifies as an "inordinate amount of time to verify."

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g.,  hour) to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop in order to maximize profit?


Another poorly constructed question demonstrating you lack the basic background required to pose interesting questions, much less form valid conclusions, on this topic.

...

Any more silly questions?    Roll Eyes

blah blah blah blah blah

Here's another question, though it be not so silly:

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g.,  hour) to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop in order to maximize profit?
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 17, 2017, 11:11:52 PM
Malicious transactions are possible on the Bitcoin network. This has been known for years. It's not a valid argument for keeping the blocksize back in the Stone Age.

Returning to the topic at hand, has anyone looked at this chart lately?
https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees?timespan=all&daysAverageString=7

Seven day average of total transaction fees. We're at roughly 120BTC per day in fees right now. That's no small potatoes.

The threat of malicious transactions is one of many valid reasons to keep max_blocksize compatible with a diffuse/diverse/defensible/resilient (ie decentralized) network.

Gavin explained why, in perfectly clear English.


120BTC per day in fees is great news.

That will help fee markets develop and is a sign Bitcoin is starting to work as it was designed to.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
February 17, 2017, 10:41:56 PM

...A BUNCH OF DELETED AD HOMENEM ATTACKS ...

Are you now ready to  join us here in the real world, where O(n^2) attacks are a problem, or are you going to stick with the wishful thinking, hand-waving, and "Because Mining Incentives!" slogan?

OFFTOPIC, BUDDY. 

Why don't you go create some 1MB spam transactions on testnet so the adults can continue discussing how we're going to save Bitcoin from being a useless relic of the past?

Malicious transactions are possible on the Bitcoin network. This has been known for years. It's not a valid argument for keeping the blocksize back in the Stone Age.

Returning to the topic at hand, has anyone looked at this chart lately?
https://blockchain.info/charts/transaction-fees?timespan=all&daysAverageString=7

Seven day average of total transaction fees. We're at roughly 120BTC per day in fees right now. That's no small potatoes.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
February 17, 2017, 10:07:35 PM
The incentives are what they are. Sure some miner can play the role of 'attacker', and include a transaction that takes an inordinate amount of time to validate. My claim is that incentives are aligned to render this a non-problem.

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop?

Your question is poorly constructed because you do not define what qualifies as an "inordinate amount of time to verify."

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g.,  hour) to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop in order to maximize profit?


Another poorly constructed question demonstrating you lack the basic background required to pose interesting questions, much less form valid conclusions, on this topic.

If you paid attention during the Grand Schism you'd already know what in the context of 10 minute block targets constitutes an "inordinate amount of time to verify."

Hint: your example is off by more than an order of magnitude.  So your question is not only uninteresting, it's entirely meaningless.

Once again you've shown yourself to be out of your depth.  Once again your fanciful reach has greatly exceeded your dimwitted grasp.  In other words, you are a great fit for Team Unlimite_.   Grin

For the sake of pity charity and the benefit of lurkers I will again spoon feed you like a baby the facts you should already know, given your proven propensity to pontificate.


Miners' decisions depend on their goals, motivations, and levels of expertise, the amount of fees in the blocks, their software/hardware/network configuration/capabilities/limitations, what they expect other miners to do and/or their strategy for attacking other miners (game theory), etc.  For example, a computationally 999.657k hard block construed in order to clean up a bunch of UXTO dust was intentionally mined by F2pool not very long ago.  That functionality would be lost if we used Gavin's artificial 100k/tx limit.

Any more silly questions?    Roll Eyes

Are you now ready to  join us here in the real world, where O(n^2) attacks are a problem, or are you going to stick with the wishful thinking, hand-waving, and "Because Mining Incentives!" slogan?
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
February 17, 2017, 12:39:47 PM
Both sides - "big blockers" and "segwitters" - have valid arguments in my opinion.
Segwit = big blocks. They are not opposing sides.
Well, "big blockers" for me are the guys that want to stay on-chain even with microtransactions and want 8 MB or even larger blocks now - and so run Bitcoin Unlimited. Segwit means "bigger blocks than now", but not really big blocks (<4 MB).

So the goal should be to find an agreement (Satoshi Roundtable Consensus 2?) on block size [...]
Simple: Segwit then implement a hard fork for a base block size increase to 1.5 or 2 MB.

Yes, that would be an ideal solution. However I am not aware of an initiative that actually has the goal to convince the miners that are blocking Segwit from that kind of solution. If there is any and there are news about it, I would be glad with you or anybody else providing me a link to it ...
legendary
Activity: 4214
Merit: 4458
February 17, 2017, 11:15:45 AM
Nobody said anything about your grammar, and your embarrassing mistakes were more than a typo. After all, nobody deletes their post just because they made a typo.

if all you can do is knit pick someones wording but not the code concept. then read the code concept
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 3041
Vile Vixen and Miss Bitcointalk 2021-2023
February 17, 2017, 10:50:30 AM
i was typing to fast.. oh well. grammar nazi

consensus.h BLOCKSTREAM_CORE_MAX_BLOCK_SIZE  - what nodes can cope with
policy.h DEFAULT_BLOCK_MAX_SIZE   - what pools will make (EB)

same thing for BOTH core and BU just a word change.


if the only knit pick you can find is someones typo.. then you need to try harder
Nobody said anything about your grammar, and your embarrassing mistakes were more than a typo. After all, nobody deletes their post just because they made a typo.
legendary
Activity: 4214
Merit: 4458
February 17, 2017, 10:43:18 AM
i was typing to fast.. oh well. grammar nazi

consensus.h BLOCKSTREAM_CORE_MAX_BLOCK_SIZE = 1000000-16000000; (1000000 currently in some nodes) - what nodes can cope with
policy.h DEFAULT_BLOCK_MAX_SIZE = 750000-999000; (999000 currently)   - what pools will make

same thing for BOTH core and BU just a word change.

consensus.h MAX_BLOCK_BASE_SIZE = 1000000; (1000000 currently(forever if gmaxwell had his way)) - what nodes can cope with
policy.h DEFAULT_BLOCK_MAX_SIZE = 750000-999000; (999000 currently) - what pools will make


if the only knit pick you can find is someones typo.. then you need to try harder
(cores is in purple)
the point is that pools will look at what consensus (EB) settings of nodes allow and then POOLS make blocks under that(policy).

end result is ORPHANS. not persistent surviving multiple chains. just orphan drama until blockheight/chainwork reveals one single chain
if the minority is larger blocks then they happily accept smaller blocks because anything below EB is acceptable, meaning even 1mb are acceptible even if EB is 16mb or whatever
if the minority is smaller blocks then they simply cannot sync and treat everything as an orphan. thus they stall.

its the same mechanism since 2009. just reworded

the only way to create an altcoin is if the minority small block scenario BILATERALLY (intentionally) banned/separate communications from the opposition nodes. to avoid bitcoins built in orphaning mechanism
legendary
Activity: 3024
Merit: 1640
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
February 17, 2017, 10:36:26 AM
The incentives are what they are. Sure some miner can play the role of 'attacker', and include a transaction that takes an inordinate amount of time to validate. My claim is that incentives are aligned to render this a non-problem.

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop?

Your question is poorly constructed because you do not define what qualifies as an "inordinate amount of time to verify."

Riddle me this: built off a parent of the same block height, a miner is presented -- at roughly the same time:
1) an aberrant block that takes an inordinate amount of time (e.g., one hour) to verify but is otherwise valid;
2) a 'normal' valid block that does not take an inordinate amount of time to verify; and
3) an invalid block.
Which of these three do you suppose that miner will choose to build the next round atop in order to maximize profit?
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