Topic: "Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs..." - page 4. (Read 6164 times)

So let's say the default and don't pay a penny back to those greedy bankers. Let's also say the kill or deport all those corrupt government officials. Let's also say they drop out of the Euro currency so they can do what they want with their Drachmas.

A 50% reduction in debt plus austerity measures took them from spending 150% of GDP down to 120% of GDP. Let's say they give up the austerity measures you don't like, but dump the other 50% of debt too. Are you claiming they have a hope in hell of getting by without German/European charity?

Should "the Greek people" choose to go it alone, against the advice of every European neighbor, at what point do you think they become *my* problem? I say never. I'm sure you will differ.

The greek population has every right to balk. I would balk too if I lived under a corrupt government that was ran by foreign banks and got me and my compatriots in to debt for generations to come. those "austerity" measures are even more idiotic. The only way for greece to ever get back on its feet is by having a growing economy. Killing what little you have as economy does no one any good, particularly if you can not devaluate your currency as greece should.

Here is whats really happening: banks made a fat profits by endebting the greek by corrupting and taking over their government.  Yes, they are spending 120% or whatever of their GDP, but most of that goes to paying back the banks, not the greece population. Now that greece is no longer able to service its debts, those very banks are forcing the hand of the EU to lend money to greece. Not money to spend on reviving its economy, but to pay back the banks. All the while "austerity" measures force greece to do a firesale of what little assets it still has left, like utility companies, heck even islands (!) so the foreign bankers can buy those for pennies on the dollar. If they need any more money for that, they will demand it from the EU as compensation for the losses they made on greek sovereign debt.

BTW, those loans foreign banks are forfeiting; google on odious debt. I would be surprised if only 50% of greek debt was odious and greek people should be under no obligation to pay that back. Of course german and other EU governments have made sure in their agreements to lend greek more money, that those debts will not seriously be investigated. After all, they were hugely profitable for our companies and banks even if they were corrupt and illegal. Its better for us to have future generations of greeks pay for that!

Somebody explain to me exactly which "ism" that Greece is.

Beyond balking about *not* paying back 50% of their loans. They are balking about austerity measures whereby the government can only spend 120% of GDP each year. I mean WTF!

Socialism wants safety nets to protect some from others.
Communism wants to redistribute only the actual GDP among the workers.
What crazy ass "ism" demands to redistribute wealth that absolutely nobody has created?

Isn't this like saying Andrea Rossi might turn out to be right. So we should all get free electricity now to make up for the obvious unfairness of riches given to future generations?

Your definition of socialism is so diluted as to be meaningless. Adam Smith qualifies as a socialist under that convoluted meaning.


Yes, but you'd have to willfully ignore all objective reality to believe that.

The "American worker" owns most of his production. He pays a portion of that product in taxes and concedes to the state certain specific regulations, which by defintion, no longer makes them the sole owners of their own property. If someone can take from you a portion of your property or dictates to you the means of production, or manipulates and guides you into specific uses thereof, your property becomes part-owned by the state (or third party).

That sort of dicta is socialist by it's very nature. Every government has varying degrees of socialism implemented if volunteerism is diminshed in any way. The US is no different in that respect. It just may be more "free" and less "socialist" than other states in other countries.

Unless you believe that society is doing exactly the things people needed.  And still is.

It really isn't because it purposefully ignores the fact that the whole reason socialism exists in the first place is that society clearly wasn't doing the things people needed. And still is not.

That's actually a really good quote.

Holy shit! You mean to tell me this whole time American workers have owned the means of production and we didn't even know it? I'm going to have to look into this.

Really? Where do you live? Out in the middle in the ocean on your own island? You apparently don't know the definition of socialism. And the fact you use state, implies you believe someone has greater authority than you to tell you what to do. Ever paid taxes? I could go on and on, but I'm sure you're just being sarcastic so I'll avoid wasting your time and mine.

Enjoy your "slavery" while you can, it will get worse if you let if fester.

No one has, socialism in the original sense of the word has never been really tried (aside perhaps for some very short lived experiment in Spain in the 30s). Oh, sure lots of countries have called themselves socialist and still do, and we have (deliberately) called lots of countries socialist that were anything but; they were the exact opposite of what I call socialist (and what would now arguably be called libertarian socialism); they were and are oppressive dictactorships with government owned production rather than stateless direct democracies with worker owned production The word socialism has pretty much lost its meaning now.

Damn Socialism being another idea that some people like, though not everyone, and existing. Damn it, why can't the world only have the one ideology that exists in my head? Why can't everyone just think like I do and like the same things I do? Why can't we banish Socialism to the Singularity of the super massive black hole in the center of the galaxy, where it can no longer steal our sweat, brows and bootstraps?

I mean I have never lived in a Socialist state, but I read on the internet someone some where didn't like it. I do the same when it comes to movies. One bad movie review, said movie couldn't possibly be good at all. The time I save from not seeing the movie opens up extra time when I post about how the sales tax on the ticket was too high, the director made me a slave, and the plot had too much red tape in it.

It agrees with my world view.
Andrew Napolitano himself... Meh.

Oh man...Atlas is quoting something...I wonder if it agrees with his worldview and seems to answer a question no one asked?!

"Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to it being done at all." – Judge Napolitano via F. Bastiat