Some good action brewing in the GBTC again!

Cconvert2G36

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Quote from: hector3115 on May 07, 2015, 06:58:26 PM

I saw one firm bidding is citadel. I believe they have 19 billion under management. That's pretty big I'd say.

The bids you see are firms placing orders on behalf of their customers and partners who use their services to execute orders.

They may also act in a market making role, placing both bids and asks and making money on the spread.

You definitely don't want to assume that these bids are the individual firms taking long term investment positions for themselves. It's not impossible, but highly improbable.

hector3115

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I saw one firm bidding is citadel. I believe they have 19 billion under management. That's pretty big I'd say.

derpinheimer

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Quote from: hector3115 on May 07, 2015, 02:21:41 PM

Did you ever think that maybe these big funds are buying at this rate because they see the potential here and realize that BTC is WAAAAY undervalued?? Seems like a an extremely good risk / reward for their portfolio's speculative portion.

It might seem like its taking a long time for bitcoin to get going, but if you step back at how far bitcoin has come in a very short time it's amazing. Price should start to reflect that sooner than later.

These arent big funds...

gentlemand

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Welt Am Draht

Quote from: hector3115 on May 07, 2015, 02:21:41 PM

Did you ever think that maybe these big funds are buying at this rate because they see the potential here and realize that BTC is WAAAAY undervalued?? Seems like a an extremely good risk / reward for their portfolio's speculative portion.

It might seem like its taking a long time for bitcoin to get going, but if you step back at how far bitcoin has come in a very short time it's amazing. Price should start to reflect that sooner than later.

It might go to the stars, it might fail miserably, it might level off to a respectable level. Just like any market really. They're throwing their equivalent of spare change at it. I doubt there's much to lose in their minds and possibly plenty to gain.

hector3115

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Did you ever think that maybe these big funds are buying at this rate because they see the potential here and realize that BTC is WAAAAY undervalued?? Seems like a an extremely good risk / reward for their portfolio's speculative portion.

It might seem like its taking a long time for bitcoin to get going, but if you step back at how far bitcoin has come in a very short time it's amazing. Price should start to reflect that sooner than later.

Biodom

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Quote from: Alley on May 07, 2015, 01:23:51 PM

Quote from: Biodom on May 07, 2015, 01:08:49 PM

Quote from: Alley on May 07, 2015, 01:03:49 PM

Lol pretty sure its illegal for a broker to purchase bitcoins off some unregulated exchange with client IRA funds.

who needs a broker to buy bitcoin on coinbase or itbit?

Pretty much anybody that wants a portion of there 401k or IRA invested in bitcoin. That's what shares like gbtc are for.

Nobody with at least reasonable knowledge of finance pays more for any assets in IRA than on non-retirement accounts.
Maximum tax is no more than 45-50% in the top bracket at most taxing US jurisdictions.
You can buy 2.77 bitcoins for the price of one "GBTC" bitcoin
50% of 2.77 BTC is 1.385 BTC, so even in a worse case of taxation, it is still 40% more profitable (MATHEMATICALLY) to buy BTC on exchange than GBTC in most favored retirement account.

I guess, it simply shows that most people don't have cash, but have IRA balances.
i don't think that bitcoin per se was ever a "tulip", but GBTC certainly is one.

Alley

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Quote from: Biodom on May 07, 2015, 01:08:49 PM

Quote from: Alley on May 07, 2015, 01:03:49 PM

Lol pretty sure its illegal for a broker to purchase bitcoins off some unregulated exchange with client IRA funds.

who needs a broker to buy bitcoin on coinbase or itbit?

Pretty much anybody that wants a portion of there 401k or IRA invested in bitcoin. That's what shares like gbtc are for.

Chef Ramsay

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Quote from: derpinheimer on May 07, 2015, 01:20:37 PM

Now its showing 2049 volume??

Thats 205BTC..? not bad

I figured the action would pick up over there as the engines get warmer after the launch. It's also nice to see some veteran posters showing up again.

derpinheimer

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Now its showing 2049 volume??

Thats 205BTC..? not bad

Biodom

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Quote from: Alley on May 07, 2015, 01:03:49 PM

Lol pretty sure its illegal for a broker to purchase bitcoins off some unregulated exchange with client IRA funds.

who needs a broker to buy bitcoin on coinbase or itbit?

minerpumpkin

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Quote from: elux on May 07, 2015, 01:02:28 PM

GBTC volume so far today: 115.3 BTC (1153 shares) @ 650-660 USD/BTC

This is insane. Could that one rumour really be true that they might go and try to short GBTC afterwards? I mean GBTC's price is so far away form the BTC spot price now, it's insane!

elux

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Quote from: Alley on May 07, 2015, 01:03:49 PM

Lol pretty sure its illegal for a broker to purchase bitcoins off some unregulated exchange with client IRA funds.

OTCQX is not an unregulated exchange.

Brokers are purchasing shares on behalf of clients, only at their explicit request.

Key Highlights About the OTCQX Marketplace:

Quote from: OTC Markets

300+ world-class companies (ranging from global blue chips to U.S. high growth)

$1.7 Trillion in market capitalization
$29.5 Billion in annual dollar volume
$78 Million in average annual dollar volume per security

http://www.otcmarkets.com/marketplaces/otcqx

Alley

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Lol pretty sure its illegal for a broker to purchase bitcoins off some unregulated exchange with client IRA funds.

elux

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GBTC volume so far today: 115.3 BTC (1153 shares) @ 650-660 USD/BTC

Biodom

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Quote from: OgNasty on May 07, 2015, 12:33:38 PM

Quote from: Erdogan on May 06, 2015, 06:19:49 AM

Quote from: OgNasty on May 05, 2015, 11:08:48 AM

It doesn't do much for the fund owner's reputation that they are allowing this overvalued trading to happen. They should dump every share they can at above market price and use the excess funds to increase the holdings of the fund. The fact they are instead slowly leaking shares on the market at a huge inflated price makes it seem like they're taking advantage of ignorant investors to make a few bucks. I'll wait for COIN before throwing my $ down the rabbit hole. GBTC is clearly not a good investment option.

Maybe they have given themselves rules to not trade against customers in their own shop.

Sure, I can see them making rules to sell their shares at >400% markup instead of fair market price. Whatever justifies ripping people off I guess.

I think choosing to let shares float at such overinflated prices as opposed to selling more shares to bring the price back in line means that insiders are cashing out before the great fall to fair value. It also shows they lack faith in their ability to grow the fund honestly and make their $ from management fees, and instead are using the low volume and lack of able sellers to manipulate prices in order to cash out more than their shares are worth.

GBTC has turned out into some stupidity.
Whoever the current buyers are, they are among the most easily fooled people on this planet.
I would like to hear what is their justification for paying $650 for the asset that could be easily had (on the fully regulated FDIC insured US based exchange-see todays news) for $234

Quote from: OgNasty on May 07, 2015, 12:33:38 PM

I would avoid this fund at all costs, and if COIN is operated in a similar manner, I would recommend avoiding that as well.

^^^^Definitely, but most likely COIN will be similar to GLD or SLV and trade at some small discount to the underlying

OgNasty

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Quote from: Erdogan on May 06, 2015, 06:19:49 AM

Quote from: OgNasty on May 05, 2015, 11:08:48 AM

It doesn't do much for the fund owner's reputation that they are allowing this overvalued trading to happen. They should dump every share they can at above market price and use the excess funds to increase the holdings of the fund. The fact they are instead slowly leaking shares on the market at a huge inflated price makes it seem like they're taking advantage of ignorant investors to make a few bucks. I'll wait for COIN before throwing my $ down the rabbit hole. GBTC is clearly not a good investment option.

Maybe they have given themselves rules to not trade against customers in their own shop.

Sure, I can see them making rules to sell their shares at >400% markup instead of fair market price. Whatever justifies ripping people off I guess.

I think choosing to let shares float at such overinflated prices as opposed to selling more shares to bring the price back in line means that insiders are cashing out before the great fall to fair value. It also shows they lack faith in their ability to grow the fund honestly and make their $ from management fees, and instead are using the low volume and lack of able sellers to manipulate prices in order to cash out more than their shares are worth. I would avoid this fund at all costs, and if COIN is operated in a similar manner, I would recommend avoiding that as well.

minerpumpkin

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Quote from: Kupsi on May 06, 2015, 06:46:07 AM

With the high premium on the OTC Market, what is interesting is to see how many new shares in the BIT that are being sold in the coming months.

Yeah, what will be even more interesting is when the other ETFs and ET(?)s go live. I'm puzzled and quite surprised that people are actually paying this kind of premium for GBTC! I believe if GBTC has proven anything it is that there's quite a demand for an ETF out there! COIN may not flop as badly as many of the bears around here suspect!

Kupsi

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9.9.2012: I predict that single digits... <- FAIL

With the high premium on the OTC Market, what is interesting is to see how many new shares in the BIT that are being sold in the coming months.

yayayo

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Quote from: Dilla on May 05, 2015, 10:12:16 AM

30 btc volume... This thing isn't going to make a slight dent in the regular price until volume is much, much, much bigger. We need Gemini and ETF still.

I agree. Volume is totally insignificant.
From what I understand that is unlikely to change, because only existing holders are allowed to sell. So there won't be any new purchases of Bitcoin in the open markets, only buying of those that are already in possession of GBTC holders. So for more capital inflow, we really have to wait for an all-open ETF (COIN).

For me it's really hard to understand why anyone would pay such a huge premium over market price while at the same time not even controlling the asset... Shocked

Maybe buyers assume that one share of GBTC = one Bitcoin. Cheesy

ya.ya.yo!

Erdogan

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Quote from: OgNasty on May 05, 2015, 11:08:48 AM

It doesn't do much for the fund owner's reputation that they are allowing this overvalued trading to happen. They should dump every share they can at above market price and use the excess funds to increase the holdings of the fund. The fact they are instead slowly leaking shares on the market at a huge inflated price makes it seem like they're taking advantage of ignorant investors to make a few bucks. I'll wait for COIN before throwing my $ down the rabbit hole. GBTC is clearly not a good investment option.

Maybe they have given themselves rules to not trade against customers in their own shop.

Topic: Some good action brewing in the GBTC again! (Read 1909 times)