Topic: Some members are more priviledged than others? (Read 1348 times)

Banned permanently?  Absolutely not.  But a temp ban given as a warning or simply because the rules ought to be applied fairly to all members?  Yes, if the standard punishment is indeed a temp ban for members who keep moving threads back to where the mods don't want them--and honestly, I'm not certain if that's true.

I'm not implying or stating outright that nutildah should get banned for good, because I think he's an extremely valuable member of the forum.  It's unfortunate that this escalated to where it did.

Man, I hope he thinks twice about that.  It appears to be a decision on his part based entirely on emotion, and somehow that seems out of character for him.  There's no reason to get so upset over something like this that you leave the forum completely.  Lots of members have gotten temp bans or other sanctions, and it shouldn't be taken personally if the rules are being enforced fairly.

C'mon back, nutildah!  Nobody wants you gone.  No harm, no foul--quiet your mind down and come on back.

I am privileged to stumble on this thread, and also disappointed how a somewhat minor issue escalated.

What played out was a bruise and massage of ego game.

On the side of the moderator:
The moderator was right to temp ban @Nutilda, whether he is a DT member, reputable member or an ordinary forum user.
The moderator was quite lenient and reluctant in his actions. I wouldn't be so wrong if I say he was forced to do so. This is because it got to a stage where someone will begin to ask who the moderator was. As the moderator was moderating, another was counter-moderating by continously moving the thread back to a certain board.
Assuming there was no ban, technically some powers of moderation would have been lost in the forum.
I so much believe that the moderator consulted widely before his action due to the reputation and contributions of the user involved. So, I might be right to say that it was a collective decision.

On the side of @Nultidah
The moderator was with the gun and hands on trigger, there is no how I wouldn't have shot if I were in his shoes. Assuming he didn't shoot, some users confidence in the system would have been shaken.
You are a strong user and can be a moderator tomorrow. I am sure, assuming you were a moderator, your level of patience wouldn't have exceeded the one of the current moderator.
Please, return to the forum let not the scammers you burst laugh at you.

On the side of the Audience
It will be fairer if we set aside the personalities of the people involved and threat the matter as it appeared.
Would it have been better that the moderator gave up, resign his position as a global moderator and maybe quit bitcointalk?
I guess No.
The ban didn't come as a surprise because it was obvious to everyone it will happen tracing how things were playing out.
It was just a 7days ban. Please peopel should renach out to Nultidah to return to the forum. Thew system cannot afford to be loosing her heavy weights, even when there are no signs of great lower ranking members to succeed them.

Solution:
Could the admin include the option that if a moderator moves a topic, a user cannot reverse it or move it to another board. I think it works well when a mod locks a topic, the topic creator cannot unlock same.

Yeah, I am afraid that nutildah meant it when he said that he will leave forum for good in case if he was banned :/

Forum is definitely not a better place without him, and we all know that he contributed in many ways since he registered back in 2014.
I can't say that he is perfect and without mistakes but he didn't deserved this one week temp-ban that pushed him to leave the forum for good.
There is still a chance for his return and maybe someone who knows him better could send him PM asking him about this.

If Nutildah has already been unlocked but has not appeared on the forum, we can admit that he does not agree with the ban that was issued to him by the moderators. I like the forum because some people really take all situations that arise on it seriously and painfully. It would seem that this is just the Internet. But even here we waste our emotions and nerves, regularly proving something in general for us to complete strangers. And this can be very sincere, which cannot be said about hunters who stupidly use the forum for their own selfish purposes.
Although we do not see each other in the face, the characters of people, stubbornness, and their principles are captured even in the texts.

That makes sense only if nutildah absolutely had to be banned and the only question was whether to do it quickly or not so quickly.

Is the forum better off with that thread moved and nutildah banned?

Anyone who can honestly say "yes" to the above question without resorting to slippery slope fallacies and shit like that has seriously impaired judgement IMO.

I'm not sure either Lauda or TMAN left the forum because of that reason; TMAN just kind of disappeared, and Lauda, well....who knows?  But I agree that nutildah is an asset to the forum, and I'd hate to lose him.  However, this was just a ban for a week, and given that nutildah kept ignoring the mods about his thread being in the wrong section (regardless of anyone's argument about whether that interpretation is correct), it's fair.  Bruno was temp banned a while back for consecuposting if I'm not mistaken, and he was certainly a valuable member of the community.  That tells me that very few members (I hate to say nobody) are above the rules.

I think nutildah did get a bit of special consideration here, as he was warned multiple times before he got temp-banned.  Other members who don't have a reputation, or who are shitposters, or who have negative trust might have been banned much sooner.  I can't say that's 100% true of course, but I don't think the mods were quick with the ban hammer as far as nutildah goes.

Yep, and I also understand it from both sides, which makes it hard for me to place blame in this situation.  Fortunately all nutildah got was a 7-day ban, and hopefully that'll give him some time to cool off--and I also hope he doesn't return with a grudge.

It's been confirmed that the temp ban ended. In case you are not aware, this is what Nutildah said before he was banned
If he meant what he said there, then that may have been one of his last posts here.

It was just a 7 day ban. Maybe he's just taking a well needed break.

Mods can see if an account is banned or not by looking at a user's profile, and I don't see him banned right now. That's all I can see/do.

Can hilariousandco or some other moderator please tell us for how long is member nutildah temp-banned?

I hope this is not top secret classified information, because it's been more than month since nutildah made his last post in forum, and he was last active on November 13.

My argument was not about Nutildah got banned but about having privileged, don't get me wrong. Giving him x times was of course was special privilege. Someone was arguing about staying in principal. The case was not obviously to follow principal too. It was about abiding by the rules.

It's a temp ban but I wonder how many days @hilariousandco.

He did get special privilege. Op was banned after moving his thread back three times. Nutildah moved his thread back nigh on ten times and he was warned several times he would get a ban if he did it again. He knew the score:


But of course it would have been preferable that he just stopped doing it. Nutildah should have known better but he obviously didn't care and was determined to keep doing it.

Do you think we really do not privilege users and we really should not.
A user who has years of contribution in the community who built up the community with his blood and sweat, he deserves privilege over a spammer in the forum who has no other intention but to harm us.

Would you tell theymos would be treated the same if has done the same?

It took me some days to really reflect on this recent event in our forum just to make sure that I was being impartial as possible in my thoughts (I think I've succeeded, but you'll be the judges). Before starting let me say that I never had any kind of problems with Nutildah nor any kind of more "heated" debate with him (the same applies to hilariousandco). Regarding the ban itself: While some members have said before that the temporary ban (as I suspect that it was) was "too much" or that this event "escalated" too much, I'm on the opinion that it was something that hilariousandco had to do for one big reason : to avoid setting up a precedent. Let me give you an example of what I mean:

You go to a museum. You see this beautifully crafted Fabergé egg sitting in a pedestal without being enclosed in a security container - this was meant for people to see the intricate details of it more closer but there is just one simply rule - Do not remove the egg from it's pedestal (to, for example, take a picture with it). Now imagine that there's a crowd around the egg and one person - a somewhat usual of the museum, already known to many staff members of it - decides to start reaching with his/her arm to the egg. The museum staff quickly warns them - "Sir/Madam, please don't do that, it's not allowed". The person pretends to not listen and carries on and manages to grab the egg and starts lifting it to really see the details up close. The museum staff quickly intervenes, removes the egg from the person and says - "Sir/Madam, please we can't have you do this even though we know you and we are fully aware that you meant no harm. But please, if we let you do this, you're breaking the rules. Besides, if we let 1 person do it, why can't the other people in the room do it? Why can't future people do it?". The staff member places the egg on the pedestal again. A few hours after, there it is the same person, in a different group, trying to grab the egg. When he does it again, the staff members aren't given too much choice - "Sir/Madam please, we already warned you and explained you the current situation. We kindly ask you to exit the museum and think about what you did. Come back a few days later and we can even talk about it."

Perhaps this is not the best example, but I think that what I intended to show (from my point of view) is clear - What image would trespass to current (and future!) members of the forum this continuous public - this is the key aspect of it - disrespect off Nutildah regarding hilariousandco warnings? hilariousandco has a somewhat important rule in the forum - to make sure that rules are being followed - and even gave him a slide and let him know that what he did was wrong and if he did continued to do the same thing things escalate. I don't think that many members have this kind of opportunity or, let's say, a pre-warning ( I might be wrong on here ).

Don't take my words wrongfully or too aggressive I'm not saying them with that meaning - Nutildah stands by his believes and that is great because it defines him. What he can't do is just repeatedly contradict a moderators deicsion the way he did because if hilariousness allowed it that would create an opening for further exceptions to be made in similar nefarious - the so called "setting up the precedent" that I mentioned earlier - and this thread would be shown as evidence that the same behavior already had happened and it was allowed. From my point of view I think hilariousandco and Nutildah should had taken the issue privately - as in messages - until something came out of it. They would find a common ground and, hopefully, an agreement. And hilariousandco could also be wrong and seeing this from the wrong perspective but even so, this should have been taken into private manners, just because doing things like this wouldn't end well for any side (like we're seeing atm).


I think that the argument "(insert user here) is a DT forum member (...)" is also something that should be carefully used when talking about bans applied to those users. Users feel that being a DT forum member (or a high merited user even though it's not the same) has some kind of immunity shield to bans or to any other kind of the forums repercussion when specific situations happen (I'm not saying this was Nutildah case, I'm speaking more broadly). My hopes is that Nutildah will use this time to reflect on what happened and, again, from my point of view, see that perhaps his behavior wasn't the best (or at least the most correct one) an that what hilariousandco did was the only thing that someone on his position would have to make considering the situation.

Regarding his DT status, I don't think that is going to be affected by this event or that some users will start to see him with other kind of "eyes". We all have our bad days right?

Sorry to say, but based on my experience as a member of this forum, I understand that personal principles, when it does not conform with the rules of the forum, is a problem.
If we all were to stand for our principles and not the rules of the forum, this forum will be pretty messed up, so it is only wise to obey the rules first, then principles can come later, principles can be bent to conform with rules, but rules can't be bent to conform with principles(especially when you are not the one that made the rules in the first place).

"Some members are more privileged than others?" - The title question has been proven false as both members involved got a ban so this thread doesn't have a purpose anymore beyond speculation and should be locked if you ask me.

Is he stubborn, or does he stand for his principles?

This is about following the rules, and not being able to do whatever he wants. nutildah was not getting anything from moving his thread, he was not warning anyone about potential scammers. Not one person on his list has even attempted to post in the currency exchange sub this month, one person was last online last month, and three others have not logged onto their accounts in multiple months.

Meanwhile, on the first page of the currency exchange sub alone, I found threads[1] made by five people that have what appear to be valid scam reports against them, including one that nutildah himself left a neutral rating on about the scam reports. Why are the below people not on
nutildah's thread? The reason is that his thread is not a serious attempt to warn people about potential scammers. It is an attempt to make certain people upset, and to show people that he can do whatever he wants and get away with it.

TBH, I don't even understand how nutildah could think it would be appropriate to be in currency exchange. But that point doesn't even matter. He was clearly told his thread doesn't belong there, and he was clearly told that if he continued to move his thread, he would be banned (this was after he wrongly moved his thread many times). He even acknowledged that him moving his thread would lead to a ban, and he did it anyway. 


[1]-
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/have-2500-bitcoin-needed-paypal-5368968
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/have-450-and-100-eur-paypal-want-btc-eth-11-green-trusted-legendary-user-1757611
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/buy-here-bitcoin-with-your-paypal-zelle-bank-payment-2417495
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5353451
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/selling-btc-for-onevanilla-at-preev-15-5138828

I only just learned out this drama due to being mentioned in another thread about nutildah being banned.  How on god's green earth did this escalate to a ban?  I think there are many ways this could have been handled by both sides that could have prevented a ban.

@nutildah; please consider another option.  For example; a short yet pointed warning about the many scammers one is likely to encounter in the currency exchange board.  Something more general, with a link to the thread in question (which is presumably in the reputation board.)  A thread like that just might get stickied, and serve the same purpose.

@hilariousandco and other mods; please reconsider the ban.  I'm sure it's a temp ban, but nonetheless that's an extreme measure to take considering the good intentions and nutildah's contributions in general.  I know it's not your job to coach member on how to avoid violating the rules (unofficial or otherwise,) but this does seem like an extraordinary circumstance.

This is totally fucked up shit, banning DT forum member who contributed a lot during all this years, he could be pissed even more with this, and we could potentially lose him forever because of this decision made by one moderator.

I understand nutildah was being stubborn but he doesn't deserve to be temp-banned, and I think that most DT members would agree with me on this (we can even vote on this subject).

Bring back nutildah, and let's hear what theymos has to say about this case.

It's easy for anyone to create new topic with same content, and mods are not immaculate creatures.
I can also put same topic in multiple threads depending on different point of view and interpretations.

Somehow the tiniest things on Bitcointalk can be blown up to the point where it leads to bans. I get it from the Mods' perspective, and I get it from nutildah's perspective. But none of this should have been made so big, it's just not worth it.

Wouldn't it be better if the board would be "locked" when a topic gets moved by a Mod, so a user can't move it back?

Except there is nothing in the rules requiring that you have to actually conduct a trade (nor would it be enforceable) but don't let that stop you from stating it as a fact.

Scammers pretend to be trading and scam people, proven by scam accusations, negative trust, flags, etc. Those threads stay because reasons (allegedly potential mod bias).

A non-scammer may or may not pretend to be trading, posts warnings against scams, that thread get moved because suddenly mods grow an inexplicable immunity to bias and can certainly definitely decide that the person had no intention of actually trading.

What could possibly go wrong here

Interesting.

Are you speaking on behalf of PN7 too?

Bad already happened and nutildah is banned. Bravo mods. You allow shit posters, scammers to roam around but you become too hard when someone who is spending their years improving the environment of the forum. You guys are F**ked up!

nutildah F**ked himself too. There were no reason for him to take it too seriously and over reacting in it. You should have been let it go. After all there is a clause in the rules
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/unofficial-list-of-official-bitcointalkorg-rules-guidelines-faq-703657

Looking forward to your comeback brother.

You are grasping at straws. The issue is not that he posted a thread in the wrong sub. The issue is that he repeatedly moved his thread back into the wrong sub after his thread was properly moved out of currency exchange. He had zero intention of actually trading any bitcoin.

There are reasons why the cited threads are not moved out of the bitcoin subs and these reasons are well established. The fact that someone wants to upset people is not a reason to have a thread in currency exchange. Nor is the fact that suchmoon wants to have a thread there that she knows doesn’t belong there.

"other fiat currencies", like Bitcoin is a fiat currency?

Anyway, I'm sorry to say that Royse777 must be banned too.

Also ban this user who created a clearly fake announcement with a sole purpose of warning against altcoin scams.

Better yet ban all scammers immediately because they're obviously not "buying/selling bitcoins" but scamming.

Or we could just pretend that scammers are doing legitimate business and ban users saying otherwise.

In order for a thread to be posted in the section it was posted in, it needs to meet the following criteria:
His thread very clearly did not meet this criteria. This is true despite his attempt to pretend to be trading bitcoin.

By my count, the following accounts have warned him about his actions, specifically that his actions could lead to a ban:
Quickseller
Royse777
hilariousandco

I am not going to comment on the above accusation, although I don’t see any basis in fact to the above, and I do look forward to you having someone else present evidence you find to come to the above conclusion.

I think you know very well that I was asking which rule did he break that the thread had to be moved to begin with.


Sockpuppets don't really count as multiple people.

I think you know very well that once a thread is moved by a moderator, it should not be moved back without first getting the mod (or someone above him) to agree. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any point in having moderators move threads.

nutildah was clearly warned by multiple people, including myself that his actions were going to lead to a ban. (Which it appears has happened). Specific action was taken many times against nutildah, each of which should have served as a warning to him. I can’t speak to any generic “hyper troll” however these people clearly did not have sufficient actions taken against them to get a ban. There is a difference between someone posting something that suchmoon doesn’t like and breaking the rules.

If nutildah had listened to my advice, he would not be banned now. I didn’t advocate for his ban, but I don’t feel bad that he is banned. He knew exactly what he needed to do to avoid a ban, and specifically took action counter to that.

nutildah is free to disagree that his thread is wrongly posted, and he can make arguments in favor of keeping his thread in currency exchange. However until and unless the moderation agrees, he should not move his thread into that section. 

Agree on this. He is a valuable asset of the forum and we didn't want an another precious member leave the forum just like Lauda, TMAN and many more just because of making the forum clean from scammers and shitty user. Actually I salute all the user that giving effort just to provide a valuable contribution here despite of there real life profession or business just like you @dkbit98 btw.

I personally use forum casually and trying to do my best to share my personal experience and knowledge on coin trading since I'm busy on managing my own business. So I really envy you guys for giving the best effort that you can.

---

This privilege thing accusation in the forum is nonsense. Moderator, admin and all user here will akways be in favor to the user that doing the right thing no matter what is his rank.

It's kind a silly even thinking of banning Nutildah for moving some topic and I don't see that being written anywhere in the rules.
You should also know that some trolls have been repeatedly doxing him for a while so you can understand why he is not acting calm like Buddha all the time.
I am sure that Theymos wouldn't ban Nutildah and won't agree with hilariousandco opinion on this, especially when we know Nutildah's previous forum contribution.

Which rule did nutildah break?


Bullshit. Hypertrolls posting all sorts of garbage for years on end never get banned, and good luck trying to remove an off-topic post if at least one word refers to the topic, yet a thread about currency exchange on the Currency Exchange board draws a ban. For a forum that supposedly promotes free speech and doesn't moderate scams, it's bizarre to see mods going to such great lengths to punish people speaking out against scams. Makes sense that you would cheer that.

This thread is an example of certain people believing they are above the rules, can do whatever they want, and see above the rest of the community.

The thread in question hasn’t been updated in months (except for an attempt to exploit what certain people believed was a loophole). The purpose of the thread in question is not to protect forum members. The purpose is to upset forum members (aka troll).

I didn't say it needs to be stickied. I asked why it's not fit to stay on that board if it's not substantially different from other warning threads on trading boards, including some that are stickied.

You're also wrong about there being no details - every username links to detailed posts that not only show why these users are scammers but also highlights all the red flags and warning signs users should look for.

I think if you're unable to judge whether a thread is substantial or valuable you should probably leave it as is. If that also means that Rambotnic's post stays up - so be it. Removing both and/or banning someone because of some misguided false equivalence does not seem right.

Don't do it, bud! It's not worth the effort.

It kinda looks just like a list of users he doesn't like. In my opinion it doesn't seem substantial enough to be stickied. It's an arbitrary thread with a mere 5 usernames listed, most of which haven't logged in a while. No info or details, no nothing other than a list of random names calling them scammers. 2 of them don't even have flags on their account. I'm sure there's more than 5 scammers in the currency exchange. In fact, there's been hundreds if not thousands. Why is there only 5? What is the criteria to get listed on Nutildah's incredible list of scammers and is he going to keep it updated? Is he going to add to it? Is it going to be an exhaustive list of all bitcointalk fiends past and present or is it just going to be a list of a handful of random scammers/ones he's left feedback on? New threads should only be stickied if they're of high value and important and if I'm being honest that thread looks pretty lazy and largely useless to me regardless of who created it. Do you think we should sticky every thread that user's request or let everyone post their threads where they personally feel is best? I can create a thread with more than 5 scammers on it as I'm sure many others can. Both lists will help next to nobody if anyone at all. Scammers come and go and most of them listed have seemingly already gone so I'm not sure why a couple of people are clamouring for it to be stickied. It seems to be of little to no value to me, but Nutildah is free to add to it or expand it if he wishes, just as long as it's in the right place.


Am I missing something here? What grudge is this exactly? You put a thread in the wrong section just like op did. Someone reported it and it got moved.


You mean you want more mods like yourself who will just make up their own rules and run the forum how they personally want?


I don't believe I was the first one to move it, but there were numerous reports from numerous people about that thread, because, you know, it doesn't belong there. Should I change the rules just to suit you? It seems like you want special treatment. Trying to be smart and childishly bending the rules is silly and would set a terrible precedent and it already did because the op also wanted special treatment because of this. Imagine if we let this slide. How many other idiots would also try bend the rules to include their petty gripes or whatnot in a board where it doesn't belong?


It really won't, unless of course I also have a grudge against the op. All it will probably prove is you think you're above the rules and should be given special treatment here.


Look, I'll give you the courtesy and tell you that staff members aren't going to continue playing cat and mouse with you and if you move it back again you'll get the same ban as the op did. You've done this many more times than him now and many other members have been banned in the past for repeatedly moving their threads back where they don't belong. I've given my reasons why the thread doesn't belong there above but something tells me for some reason you're looking for a ban so you can feel a martyr for something. I'd suggest you just move on. This really shouldn't be a big issue.


Well I'm assuming they're the same.

Not like a ban does anything to anyone who has enough perseverance anyway. If you were so inclined, you could make alts at any time - the forum is quite free. If you wanted to, you could even post self-modded, locked, scam threads and flood the board: oversaturating the market is one way to stop those scammers from entering. Of course, I don't mean real "scams" because I clearly lack the discretion to determine the truth: after all, even staff members can't do that!


A welcome message would be nice to have.
Or DefaultTrust ratings for guest users.

She hasn't. But that's kinda the point. For example if LoyceV posted here using the LoyceMobile account, it's quite obvious that it's the same person. However when someone is pretending to be two different users that's when I think we have a problem.


Ideally those warnings should link to reference threads but they don't so nutildah's topic served a purpose for guest users. Only scammers benefit from its removal and no one (except said scammers) was harmed by it being on the Currency Exchange board.

If you break any rule enough times, you will eventually get banned. I am not calling for a ban, I am just laying out the facts about what will happen next if current trends continue.

Suchmoon apparently doesn't like me warning nutildah to stop breaking the rules. I don't particularly like nutildah, but I am not trying to get him banned. So she accuses QS and PN7 of sockpuppeting for saying two very different things.

---

O/T:
You are not going to find any.

Agreed. My point was, with a Flag on all accounts, the Reference topic doesn't have the be on the Currency Exchange board.

You are saying everyone who have bushy head are all confused walking on the street? 🤣