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Topic: Something has to be wasted (Read 2805 times)

full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
August 02, 2011, 10:44:36 AM
#29
Free market competition is wasteful by definition because effective competition always requires some duplication of work before the winner emerges and specialization can occur.

It's less wasteful than central planning in most cases, but it's still wasteful.
 

Indeed. Urbanist thinker Jane Jacobs argued that duplication and waste is a highly important part of development work. She argued that small firms breaking off of old firms to pursue new ideas are how we get new, innovative ideas, goods and services. This process only works if there is a lot of "wasted" work being done in small, inefficient workshops, labs, etc. that fail more often than they succeed. She argues that this is one of the defining features and advantages of urban life. Cities provide an intense concentration of small businesses to support development work, and intense concentrations of people bumping into one another, creating networks, and constantly searching for new ways to build, assemble, conserve, deliver, etc, to meet one another's needs.

I'd argue that this exact process is going on with the development work springing up around Bitcoin. There's a lot of "wasteful" duplication going on in the bitcoin economy. It's being developed by small groups of highly competent, enthusiastic individuals. Much of this work will fail, but its this exact process of creation and discovery that expands an economy.

More here
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 251
August 02, 2011, 04:44:02 AM
#28
Mining for gold is also a net waste of energy, from the perspective that gold has nearly zero industrial uses outside of the monetary functions of gold.  Societies that produce more than they need to persist can afford to commit resources to such endeavors.  Societies that are on the edge of starvation, cannot.

We need gold to make mining hardware!
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
July 29, 2011, 11:14:59 PM
#27
Mining for gold is also a net waste of energy, from the perspective that gold has nearly zero industrial uses outside of the monetary functions of gold.  Societies that produce more than they need to persist can afford to commit resources to such endeavors.  Societies that are on the edge of starvation, cannot.

It's mostly used in jewellery and decoration. Only a small amount is used as money, surprise surprise. Apparently anyway. You might want to check that yourself.

Only a small amount is used as jewelry, for the jewelry that Indians buy is money.  For they can't buy gold as bullion.  The same is true for most of the world's population, and was true for American citizens for fifty years.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
July 29, 2011, 08:10:16 PM
#26
Mining for gold is also a net waste of energy, from the perspective that gold has nearly zero industrial uses outside of the monetary functions of gold.  Societies that produce more than they need to persist can afford to commit resources to such endeavors.  Societies that are on the edge of starvation, cannot.

It's mostly used in jewellery and decoration. Only a small amount is used as money, surprise surprise. Apparently anyway. You might want to check that yourself.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
July 29, 2011, 07:12:31 PM
#25

In a deflation economy like bitcoin world, people waste lots of energies to produce the currency (thinking about how much electricity/computation power are wasted in the meaningless hash calculation to generate those coins)



Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the the hash calculation is not meaningless. Generating a block secures the transactions and continually hardens the network. Right now, there's a BTC bounty awarded for that, but that's not the ultimate model. Eventually, the hashing will just be create blocks to secure transactions, which is hardly wasteful. The bounty is just a reasonable means for initial currency distribution, and is, imo, pretty irrelevant overall.

If you compare with how a bank secure the transactions, much less calculation power is required, they just need to make sure the balance of both account is correct based on the transaction history

as well as pay out the multi million dollar bonuses and the hundreds of thousands for the janitors.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
July 28, 2011, 08:52:22 AM
#24
Did you have a point?  Or even an on topic train of thought?

Sure, the point is that these 2 rules do not solve the ownership problem, in any new world the ownership is the first concern


Ownership boils down to a generally recognized legitimacy of possession.  If the civilization in question doesn't already have a generally recognized chain of legitimate possession, then it's not a civilization.  The two rules don't address those  particulars any more than it addresses the particulars of what defines "encroachment" in this context.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
July 28, 2011, 06:15:48 AM
#23
Did you have a point?  Or even an on topic train of thought?

Sure, the point is that these 2 rules do not solve the ownership problem, in any new world the ownership is the first concern
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
BitVapes.com
July 28, 2011, 12:17:59 AM
#22
Mining for gold is also a net waste of energy, from the perspective that gold has nearly zero industrial uses outside of the monetary functions of gold.

gold has lots of amazing properties and would be incredibly useful in industrial applications if it weren't for the monetary demand of the metal making it so expensive.

Instead, we use silver in electronics in places were gold might do a better job due to its non-corrosiveness.  Gold is still invaluable in spacecraft and other mission critical applications.  It is even used as a lubricant in spacecraft.
Silver is the best electrical conductor, we would use it in wires instead of copper if it weren't also so expensive
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
July 27, 2011, 10:44:30 PM
#21
The Two Laws of All Civilization

1) Do all that you have agreed to do.

2) Do not encroach upon another's person or property.

This shall be the whole of the law.

1st is good, but 2nd, how to define the ownership? First come first get? If every piece of land have already been occupied, then there will unavoidably be some criminal or war?

I think the 2nd is defined by and supported by the 1st. If you have a contract that you will receive property for your work or money, then the other person has to do what they agreed to do, i.e. honor their contract to give you the property.

Chicken and egg problem, who first get the ownership?

In bitcoin world, the coin ownership belongs to who first find the block, and due to the rising difficulty, the earlier you find the block, the faster you collect coins. This is still a "first come first get" model

Did you have a point?  Or even an on topic train of thought?
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
July 27, 2011, 09:31:50 PM
#20
The Two Laws of All Civilization

1) Do all that you have agreed to do.

2) Do not encroach upon another's person or property.

This shall be the whole of the law.

1st is good, but 2nd, how to define the ownership? First come first get? If every piece of land have already been occupied, then there will unavoidably be some criminal or war?

I think the 2nd is defined by and supported by the 1st. If you have a contract that you will receive property for your work or money, then the other person has to do what they agreed to do, i.e. honor their contract to give you the property.

Chicken and egg problem, who first get the ownership?

In bitcoin world, the coin ownership belongs to who first find the block, and due to the rising difficulty, the earlier you find the block, the faster you collect coins. This is still a "first come first get" model
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
July 27, 2011, 09:14:27 PM
#19

In a deflation economy like bitcoin world, people waste lots of energies to produce the currency (thinking about how much electricity/computation power are wasted in the meaningless hash calculation to generate those coins)



Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the the hash calculation is not meaningless. Generating a block secures the transactions and continually hardens the network. Right now, there's a BTC bounty awarded for that, but that's not the ultimate model. Eventually, the hashing will just be create blocks to secure transactions, which is hardly wasteful. The bounty is just a reasonable means for initial currency distribution, and is, imo, pretty irrelevant overall.

If you compare with how a bank secure the transactions, much less calculation power is required, they just need to make sure the balance of both account is correct based on the transaction history
legendary
Activity: 1050
Merit: 1000
July 27, 2011, 08:30:18 PM
#18
so is food consumption
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
July 27, 2011, 06:06:02 PM
#17
It's less wasteful than central planning in most cases, but it's still wasteful.
 

How can it be wasteful if energy can be neither created nor destroyed?  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
July 27, 2011, 03:38:33 PM
#16

In a deflation economy like bitcoin world, people waste lots of energies to produce the currency (thinking about how much electricity/computation power are wasted in the meaningless hash calculation to generate those coins)



Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the the hash calculation is not meaningless. Generating a block secures the transactions and continually hardens the network. Right now, there's a BTC bounty awarded for that, but that's not the ultimate model. Eventually, the hashing will just be create blocks to secure transactions, which is hardly wasteful. The bounty is just a reasonable means for initial currency distribution, and is, imo, pretty irrelevant overall.

You are correct.
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
July 27, 2011, 02:43:15 PM
#15

In a deflation economy like bitcoin world, people waste lots of energies to produce the currency (thinking about how much electricity/computation power are wasted in the meaningless hash calculation to generate those coins)



Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the the hash calculation is not meaningless. Generating a block secures the transactions and continually hardens the network. Right now, there's a BTC bounty awarded for that, but that's not the ultimate model. Eventually, the hashing will just be create blocks to secure transactions, which is hardly wasteful. The bounty is just a reasonable means for initial currency distribution, and is, imo, pretty irrelevant overall.
legendary
Activity: 938
Merit: 1001
bitcoin - the aerogel of money
July 27, 2011, 02:17:41 PM
#14
Free market competition is wasteful by definition because effective competition always requires some duplication of work before the winner emerges and specialization can occur.

It's less wasteful than central planning in most cases, but it's still wasteful.
 
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
July 27, 2011, 11:35:42 AM
#13
Mining for gold is also a net waste of energy, from the perspective that gold has nearly zero industrial uses outside of the monetary functions of gold.

In third-world countries thousands depend on their gold mining jobs to survive. Add the workers in the mining industries in industrialized countries that would be out of work, and we see that a lot of people's lives would be severely affected if gold mining was stopped.

Bernanke is wrong: gold is the ultimate money. 100% of central banks hold gold, in spite of Bernanke's brush-off. However gold does have weaknesses that bitcoin can thrive on.

I do understand your point, though. From a wider perspective, why do we need gold if we can use anything as a store of value? I think its because of trust. Gold is a substitute for trust in a dog-eat-dog world. The question is, can the networks (and the bitcoin block-chain itself) be trusted enough to include bitcoin on the list of trusted stores of wealth?







legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
July 27, 2011, 10:42:35 AM
#12
The Two Laws of All Civilization

1) Do all that you have agreed to do.

2) Do not encroach upon another's person or property.

This shall be the whole of the law.

1st is good, but 2nd, how to define the ownership? First come first get? If every piece of land have already been occupied, then there will unavoidably be some criminal or war?

I think the 2nd is defined by and supported by the 1st. If you have a contract that you will receive property for your work or money, then the other person has to do what they agreed to do, i.e. honor their contract to give you the property.
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
July 27, 2011, 08:48:09 AM
#11
The Two Laws of All Civilization

1) Do all that you have agreed to do.

2) Do not encroach upon another's person or property.

This shall be the whole of the law.

1st is good, but 2nd, how to define the ownership? First come first get? If every piece of land have already been occupied, then there will unavoidably be some criminal or war?
full member
Activity: 130
Merit: 100
July 27, 2011, 07:53:41 AM
#10
gold has nearly zero industrial uses outside of the monetary functions of gold.

That's simply not true... http://geology.com/minerals/gold/uses-of-gold.shtml
In fact it's the complete opposite LOL

Gold has value because we have faith it has. That's it . Not because of it's uses.
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