Pages:
Author

Topic: Spin-offs: bootstrap an altcoin with a btc-blockchain-based initial distribution - page 15. (Read 53618 times)

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
1.  The claiming process should be accessible to the entire bitcoin community.  Bitcoin users should be able to claim or transfer their share of the spin-off without needing to download the spin-off client and without needing to export their bitcoin private keys.

yes the claimant, should just required to broadcast a signed message, form a Bitcoin address with valid unspent outputs in Block 0 (originating from the Bitcoin blockchain).

i think at the very least you will need a public private key pair from the spin-off, and a mechanism to broadcast the signed Bitcoin message to the spin-off blockchain this could involve at the very least downloading the spin-off client to do both those tasks.

but I'm jumping ahead, first off how to design the snapshot.bin, on for that i have to defer to those with experiences.
is this not quite simple, Block Number; Publick address + unspent outputs.

I think it beneficial if the spin off would include second 2 snapshot.bin, e.g. one for dogecoin and one for bitcoin. that way incorporating motivating the developers of doge, and broadening the user base.

legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
I want to reiterate that this concept is totally money.

It's the logical way to launch an altcoin, period. The only reason to do it otherwise is to deliberately tweak the distribution to be more "fair," but that is incredibly ironic.

It is incredibly ironic because Bitcoin is the first technology platform to actually allow a completely fair* "airdrop" where no one is left out "because they didn't hear about it in time." Once the world is on the Blockchain (of course the Bitcoin blockchain), the obvious thing to do to ensure no one is left out of an altcoin launch is to give everyone the altcoins automatically, so even if they "missed the airdrop" or "happened not to hear about the amazing new technology," they still are "reverse-taxed" the exact same proportion of the coin relative to their net crypto worth as everyone else.

Therefore if for some reason it ever becomes necessary to switch over from the Bitcoin Blockchain to a different one, there will be no need to: the ledger will be just as before, except for those that specifically opted out of the new technology. Only the technology will be different. With this spin-off idea, likely to be known in the future as "duh, that's how you launch an altcoin," you can't miss the boat, you can only jump off of your own accord. That's game-changing.

Final thought: Now consider that the Blockchain enables any asset to be launched in the same way, not just coins...

*What is "fair" will always be subjective, but at least within the crypto-sphere we can unequivocally call such distributions "fairness-neutral." That is, they don't alter the fairness of the Blockchain distribution as it stands. And Peter R's argument for why the Bitcoin Blockchain is the fairest make a great deal of sense.

Yes, this idea is so obvious it's brilliant. I can't believe it's actually being discussed. This should be a thread filled with "thank you Peter! Good job".
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Extracting credits from Block 0 (snapshot.bin) with claim to transactions

The initial distribution of wealth in a spin-off is based on a snapshot of the unspent outputs of the bitcoin blockchain at a particular block height.  This snapshot file (snapshot.bin) becomes Block 0 and part of the definition of the spin-off coin.  Bitcoin holders can claim their wealth by producing the appropriate bitcoin-signed messages and broadcasting them to the spin-off network.  The purpose of this post is to discuss the mechanics of the "claiming" process.

Here are some of the requirements that I've thought of:

1.  The claiming process should be accessible to the entire bitcoin community.  Bitcoin users should be able to claim or transfer their share of the spin-off without needing to download the spin-off client and without needing to export their bitcoin private keys.

2.  The claiming process should be consistent between various spin-offs, to the extent possible, and portable into existing alt-coin source code with as little changes as possible.  

3.  The snapshot file becomes Block 0 and there must be no "time limit" to transfer unspent credits from Block 0.  Unspent balances in Block 0 permanently remain as valid as any other unspent output in a higher block. This requirement is debatable.

Requirement #1 places significant restrictions on the claiming processes.  Bitcoin users must be able to claim or transfer their spin-off credits using the tools they already know and trust.  IMO, this means that the claiming process must be (a) text based, and (b) use standard bitcoin-signed messages (perhaps with an application-specific "wrapper").  

Requirement #2 IMO means that (a) we should agree on a simple and flexible format for snapshot.bin, and (b) we should put sufficient thought into how credits move from the snapshot file and into the native format of the spin-off alt-coin.  This is not trivial because the spin-off may use entirely different signatures and address formats than bitcoin, but it must always be possible to claim your share of the pre-mine using bitcoin-signed messages (or at the minimum using ECDSA signatures based on bitcoin's secp256k1 curve).  

I have some ideas for how this could be done, but I'd like to ask first if other people interested in spin-offs have considered the technical details related to the claiming process.  Please share your thoughts.


I added requirement #3, because when the concept of Spin-offs was discussed on this podcast it was not understood that it is not possible (according to my definition of a spin-off) for a bitcoin user to ever lose his share of the pre-mine.  A user can claim his share on Day 1, or on Day 1000, or never; the credits are always valid as they become part of the definition of the coin.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
...

Hey, it looks like you invented spin-offs a year before I did!  

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1630238

My "spin-off" thread got some attention, but I learned through various comments and PMs that this idea has actually been around since at least 2011.  I think the recent proliferation of alt-coin pump-and-dump schemes is what has created the more intense interest in spin-offs this time around.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
The importance of creating a well designed coin is nothing compared to the importance of creating the network effect.

Most Alt coins not spunoff/seeded with prior chains are now obsolete in my opinion.

This concept could create the downhill snowball effect for new functionality.

Wheres the donation address  Kiss

Thank you for the kind offer!  So far I've been declining the donations offers I've received, but it sounds like there is a real demand to move forward with spin-offs.  I think one of the first things that needs to get done is for the snapshot-taking program to be written (upon finalization of the spinoff.bin file format).  Since Adrian has already offered a very generous bounty, perhaps he could set up an address specifically for this part of the project and you or others could contribute directly to that fund.  Alternatively, there are other tasks that need doing (that we will discuss later) that you may prefer to donate to as the need arises.

legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
I haven't committed to learning to program other than entity level html and css but I'll kick start the process by offering 1,000,000 bits (1BTC) to the first person to commit to undertaking the task on condition the code meets Peter's approval and  the source is posted under the same licence as the Bitcoin code.

That is very generous of you, Adrian!  

Note to bounty hunters: before the code can meet my approval, we must as a community finalize the file format for snapshot.bin and we should also discuss the language that the snapshot-taking program should be written in and other details.  If you are interested in this bounty, please keep us in the loop on this thread so that we are all on the same page with regards to expectations.  

As we move further along, this snapshot-taking program could potentially run on a server and create a snapshot for perhaps every 100th block.  The program would then write a new snapshot.bin file roughly every 16 hrs and 40 min (perhaps naming them snapshot_302800.bin, snapshot_302900.bin, snapshot_303000.bin, etc).  The program would store these files on the server so that they could be downloaded by the public.  In addition to making it easier for developers to launch spin-off-clones of interesting alt coins, over time this website would earn credibility and trust for accurately taking the snapshots (and make snapshot.bin the standard format).    
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
The importance of creating a well designed coin is nothing compared to the importance of creating the network effect.

Most Alt coins not spunoff/seeded with prior chains are now obsolete in my opinion.

This concept could create the downhill snowball effect for new functionality.

Wheres the donation address  Kiss
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
I haven't committed to learning to program other than entity level html and css but I'll kick start the process by offering 1,000,000 bits (1BTC) to the first person to commit to undertaking the task on condition the code meets Peter's approval and  the source is posted under the same licence as the Bitcoin code.

___

On a separate note but important in understanding and propagating the spin-off and preventing a 51% attack mining needs to ramp up fast and be motivated and sustain the initial offering price. Lots of ideas how to do this but wondering if there is a formula to make such estimates.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
snapshot.bin file size

The initial distribution of wealth in a spin-off is based on a snapshot of the unspent outputs of the bitcoin blockchain at a particular block height.  Bitcoin holders can claim their wealth by producing the appropriate bitcoin-signed message and broadcasting it to the spin-off network.  The Snapshot for a spin-off is similar to the Genesis Block for Bitcoin.  It becomes part of the definition of the coin, is downloaded with the binaries, and has its file hash hardcoded in software.  The purpose of this post is to estimate the minimum size of this file, and to open a discussion regarding the appropriate file format.  

John Ratcliff has done a nice job preparing blockchain statistics here.  In late December 2013, he reported that:

  - 2.4 million addresses contained a non-zero balance,
  - 1.15 million of those addresses contained less than 1000 bits.  

The file snapshot.bin must contain an entry for each of the N addresses that hold a claimable balance.   The "balance record" for address n must contain the following 28 bytes:

Code:
pubkeyhash_n (20 bytes)  balance_n (8 bytes)

Depending on whether the unspent dust outputs are included, the size of snapshot.bin can be no less than

   filesize of snapshot.bin >= 28 x 2,400,000 = 67 MBytes    (including unspent dust)
   filesize of snapshot.bin >= 28 x 1,250,000 = 35 MBytes    (dust removed)

My inclination (although I am flexible here) is to remove dust less than 1000 bits (100,000 satoshis) by calculating the balance of the nth address as follows

Code:
balance_n = 100000 * floor(sum_of_unspent_outputs_assigned_to_address_n / 100000);

The file format for snapshot.bin can be very simple.  I propose a small header that specifies the blockheight when the snapshot was taken, and miscellaneous other header data, followed by a contiguous list of balance records, expressed in binary, and sorted canonically so that a particular balance can be found in O(log2N) time.  I haven't decided how to deal with balances claimable with more complex redemption scripts such as multisig, and I am looking for advice here.  In any case, the more complex cases can be appended to the end of the snapshot file as shown.  

Code:
// File header:
version (1 byte)  blockheight_of_snapshot (4 bytes)  num_bytes (4 bytes)  header data   // total of num_bytes of header data

// Wealth data for regular addresses:
tag1=0x4E (1 byte)  num_bytes (4 bytes)  pubkeyhash_1 (20 bytes)  balance_1 (8 bytes)  …  pubkeyhash_N (20 bytes)  balance_N (8 bytes)  // total of num_bytes of records here

// Wealth data for multisig addresses:
tag2=0xA7 (1 byte)  num_bytes (4 bytes)  data format to be determined

// Wealth data for other types of outputs with unusual redemption scripts:
tag3=0xB4 (1 byte)  num_bytes (4 bytes)  data format to be determined


Is there anyone interested in volunteering to write a simple program to parse the blockchain and construct the file snapshot.bin (for an arbitrary blockheight)?  I think for the time being and to get started quickly, you can leave out the multisig balances for now.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
there's only 1 problem with your plan Peter.
No alt coin creator will do it.

If the source code is open, then anyone can create a spin-off clone of an alt-coin.  IMO, if we want to foster the emergence of spin-offs, then we must make the process of creating them easier.  

There actually is a financial benefit to creating a spin-off: the creator benefits from the sharpest asymmetry of information.  If he is confident in his idea, he can offer to purchase his spin-offs at, say, a 1 : 1,000 discount from existing bitcoin holders.  I expect many bitcoin holders to happily sell their "free" spin-off coins to the developer at this price.  

For example, cryptonote-based coins (Monero, Bytecoin, etc) seem to be en vogue at the moment.  From my research, an exchange like Poloniex would definitely list your spin-off coin based on cryptonote.  Furthermore, Poloniex would be able to credit all bitcoin accounts with an equal spin-off balance (since they control the keys to unlock the spin-off), perhaps also charging customers a fee for this service.  This means your spin-off has instant liquidity.  As a developer, you could attempt to purchase these coins from those who think the concept is "stupid" or a "scam" and are happy to dump them.  Alternatively, you could set-up a website where bitcoin holders simply post bitcoin-signed-messages that credit their portion of the spin-off to you, and the site would instantly send a small bitcoin payment to the seller.  

In summary, I believe a developer could benefit sharply from a well-executed spin-off by accumulating a surplus of coins at a huge discount.  There would be no qualms with the legitimacy of the distribution process either, as every additional coin he accumulated he purchased from a wiling seller in the open market.  Of course, if the alt-coin is useless the developer could lose money too, but that is a feature and not a bug.  
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
there's only 1 problem with your plan Peter.
No alt coin creator will do it.
Then , what are we left with?
forks of shitcoins? 

I love the idea it's a $#!t¢oin killer.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
there's only 1 problem with your plan Peter.
No alt coin creator will do it.
Then , what are we left with?
forks of shitcoins? 
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1000
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
I want to reiterate that this concept is totally money.

It's the logical way to launch an altcoin, period. The only reason to do it otherwise is to deliberately tweak the distribution to be more "fair," but that is incredibly ironic.

It is incredibly ironic because Bitcoin is the first technology platform to actually allow a completely fair* "airdrop" where no one is left out "because they didn't hear about it in time." Once the world is on the Blockchain (of course the Bitcoin blockchain), the obvious thing to do to ensure no one is left out of an altcoin launch is to give everyone the altcoins automatically, so even if they "missed the airdrop" or "happened not to hear about the amazing new technology," they still are "reverse-taxed" the exact same proportion of the coin relative to their net crypto worth as everyone else.

Therefore if for some reason it ever becomes necessary to switch over from the Bitcoin Blockchain to a different one, there will be no need to: the ledger will be just as before, except for those that specifically opted out of the new technology. Only the technology will be different. With this spin-off idea, likely to be known in the future as "duh, that's how you launch an altcoin," you can't miss the boat, you can only jump off of your own accord. That's game-changing.

Final thought: Now consider that the Blockchain enables any asset to be launched in the same way, not just coins...

*What is "fair" will always be subjective, but at least within the crypto-sphere we can unequivocally call such distributions "fairness-neutral." That is, they don't alter the fairness of the Blockchain distribution as it stands. And Peter R's argument for why the Bitcoin Blockchain is the fairest make a great deal of sense.
newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
I like this idea of Spin Offs... I won't re-summarize it in this post to demonstrate that I understand it...

I have a thought and a suggestion...

I notice that Peter R has posted an RFC about a new Coin aEthereum https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/rfc-aethereum-a-turing-complete-coin-distributed-as-per-bitcoins-blockchain-563925...

Talking points...

  • It seems to me that the context has now changed because of the emergence and significance of Darkcoin. Darkcoin appears to have a well-design architecture for promoting anonymous transactions whereas Bitcoin does not.
  • Innovation, like that provided by Darkcoin, ought to be rewarded, and not punished
  • Moreover, there is no Ethereum Coin in existence. Darkcoin already exists with significant new functionality in place. It is also under serious continuous development with serious a serious technology team leadership.
  • So... what about a new Coin that is a Spin-Off of Darkcoin, providing all the functionality that Darkcoin provides.
  • And... the big question... What about the Initial Distribution... Well, the Initial Distribution would be divided equally among holders of Bitcoin and Darkcoin at some specific Date and Time.
  • 50% of the Initial Distribution Size would be allocated to Bitcoin addresses. 50% of that same size would be allocated to Darkcoin addresses.

http://www.darkcoin.io/
http://www.wired.com/2014/05/darkcoin-is-booming/
http://www.coindesk.com/true-anonymity-darkcoin-king-altcoins/

There are several benefits to this idea...

  • This new Coin would be a demonstration that Technology Innovation is rewarded.
  • Like aEthereum, this new Coin is a Fluff, Meme-Only AltCoin Killer. AltCoin holders will be selling their Fluff Coins to own the new Coin based on Darkcoin.
  • Those holding Bitcoin own a percentage of a coin that provides for anonymous transactions.
  • Those holding Darkcoin own a percentage of a Second Coin that provides for anonymous transactions.
  • Darkcoin holders will not sell their Darkcoin, hence, doing harm to Darkcoin viability, because their holding DRK entitles them to ownership of the new Spin Off Coin. This is important because it would be a good thing that the Darkcoin Development Team has even more motivation to Innovate.

A final benefit... We don't have to wait for Ethereum to appear on the scene to put Peter R's great idea to the test...  Smiley

Thoughts?
legendary
Activity: 996
Merit: 1013

What ? can you explain that in English ? or better in Spanish! :p. Because as far as I understand it, it is "getting richer".

Cheers!.

I think what he means is that not all spinoffs are equal. Theoretically some spinoffs
would have higher market value than the original coin, while others would be completely
worthless.

So the spinning off can be used to identify the features of the coin where the economical value resides.

If you object to "rich getting richer", consider the fact that you can always make a spinoff of Bitcoin and distribute
it to Doge or any other altcoin owners.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
allow bitcoin users to claim a share of any pre-mine in direct proportion to the percentage of bitcoin’s market cap they control.

If you are a bitcoin user, you can use your bitcoin private keys to claim a percentage of æther exactly equal to the percentage of the bitcoin market cap you controlled at the time of nucleus creation.

If I understood correctly, the more bitcoin you have, the more premine you'll get. In other words, the rich will get richer and Satoshi Nakamoto will get the lion's share of any altcoin premine.

Surely you had something else in mind, didn't you?

It's not "getting richer." The way spin-offs work economically is that the value of the spin-off is already included in the value of the parent. What happens is that the existing value is split between the new ex-spin off parent and the new instrument. How much accrues to each depend on the value the market attributes to each.



What ? can you explain that in English ? or better in Spanish! :p. Because as far as I understand it, it is "getting richer".

Cheers!.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
allow bitcoin users to claim a share of any pre-mine in direct proportion to the percentage of bitcoin’s market cap they control.

If you are a bitcoin user, you can use your bitcoin private keys to claim a percentage of æther exactly equal to the percentage of the bitcoin market cap you controlled at the time of nucleus creation.

If I understood correctly, the more bitcoin you have, the more premine you'll get. In other words, the rich will get richer and Satoshi Nakamoto will get the lion's share of any altcoin premine.

Surely you had something else in mind, didn't you?

It's not "getting richer." The way spin-offs work economically is that the value of the spin-off is already included in the value of the parent. What happens is that the existing value is split between the new ex-spin off parent and the new instrument. How much accrues to each depend on the value the market attributes to each.

hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 503
Monero Core Team
allow bitcoin users to claim a share of any pre-mine in direct proportion to the percentage of bitcoin’s market cap they control.

If you are a bitcoin user, you can use your bitcoin private keys to claim a percentage of æther exactly equal to the percentage of the bitcoin market cap you controlled at the time of nucleus creation.

If I understood correctly, the more bitcoins you have, the more premine you'll get. In other words, the richs will get richer and Satoshi Nakamoto will get the lion's share of any altcoin premine.

Surely you had something else in mind, didn't you?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I guess this reasoning would apply to the proposed case... if you trusted the exchange with your BTC it would seem acceptable to assume you'd trust them your bootstrapped coins...

Correct. In some sense exchange owners should handle the spin offs for you and put the new coins into your account, the way stock brokers do. In practice we're a long way from that. First they should stop losing/stealing BTC.

Pages:
Jump to: