Topic: Sportsbooks - Industry Standards, our importance and inflated sense of authority - page 2. (Read 445 times)

Depends on which network the VPN is on. Using a "freemium" VPN (especially the ones that give you a random IP address) or a proxy from a list somewhere? Then there's a good chance that it's also being abused by multiaccounters and blacklisted.

But if it's a paid VPN that lets you choose the location then it's less likely that it is included in the casino's list of "blocked" addresses. I do not think they block entire ASN numbers belonging to collocation IPs unless possibly they have a clause that bans you if you're caught using a VPN.

I'm not advocating for their use I'm just saying that the VPN's IP address you use may not be included in their list of blocked IP addresses which opens up an avenue for more scam accusations because of some casinos apparently not knowing to block these IPs.

And then there's the Tor network which presents another bucket of accountability problems although it can also be classified as a VPN (how will we detect all the Tor nodes and block them? Will we even allow Tor IPs in our TOS? Will we treat an accusation involving Tor IPs the same as one involving VPNs? etc.) the same with private proxies you can host on AWS and Azure and other hosting sites.

First of all I would distinguish between the different bookie types, i.e. fiat, crypto, hybrid. The more "unregulated" you go, the more likely you are to run into (unjustified) trouble. Why ? Because KYC is the key. If you have nothing to hide and play fair, you will never have any problems in your traditional fiat bookie, because they will KYC you no matter what and after that is completed, they really don't have any strong arguments no more. Same with traditional fiat bookies that added crypto deposit/withdrawal option in the last years. The good bookies will KYC you shortly after registration, I would even recommend to do KYC voluntarily after opening an account.

The crypto books and hybrid books (you deposit crypto, but bet with fiat) don't have a mandatory KYC and that is where all these problems stem from. It's very easy to make multiple accounts and there is a good possibility you don't get caught. This is very attractive for certain people, with a good risk-reward ratio - there is generally more suspicion involved for all accounts/users because of this.

Now the crypto/hybrid books could just say, ok lets make KYC mandatory and we are good. But this doesn't work since it's a) against what crypto stands for and b) they would erase their only USP and lose market shares or not even get them in first place.

There are loads of abusers, cheaters and whatever in this space, so bookies and their fraud departments have no easy job tbh. I believe 90% of scam accusations against somewhat established books are actually just hot air from sore losers or people who were caught abusing and seek for some revenge. The problem is really the other 10%, who suffer under this, get bullied around and have no lobby/help/protection - sometimes even having trouble to get their fairly won money after having completed KYC.

Another issue is that some crypto bookies are really poorly run and there are smart/experienced people taking advantage of this. I started a discussion about something similar last year (The Art of Exploiting vs the Bad Habit of Scamming), where there were very different opinions about whether bookies should just take certain things on the chin and move on. But in the end you often have a user, who thinks he has done nothing wrong (just being smart), while the bookies don't want to take responsibility for their mistake. Who wins ? The bookie; leading to scam accusations, KYC, IP checks and what else. Who is right ? I don't know.

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This is the common practice, but a lot of it is goodwill, to prevent any negative talks and keep a good image. It depends on how severe the violation was, but I personally would be fine, if I didn't get my initial deposit back, if I was willingly and knowingly trying to cheat/abuse a bookie.


This is fine, but everything more than 1x rollover is not acceptable imo.


Not sure about this. I personally like, when I tell the bookie how much value in fiat I want to deposit and they then tell me: "Send X.XXXX BTC to this BTC address". Then I will get exactly the fiat value I wanted to deposit.
When I just send crypto to a bookie and let them convert it to fiat afterwards, I have to live with things not being 100% exact. But this shouldn't be a one-way street, where the bookies only ever convert to their advantage (which is hard to track in the end....).


The bolded part is very important and here I blame the bookies for playing unfair. You lose, lose, lose and never get KYCed, you get a bit more lucky and make a small withdrawal, still no KYC. You get very lucky at some point and want to make a bigger withdrawal, suddenly there is KYC and the bullying starts.

I heard stories of users not getting paid, because they were geo-restricted and thus not allowed to play on that site. Their winnings were nullified and deposit was returned. Never ever did I hear about it the other way round, where a user got his lost money back, because he wasn't allowed to play there. They use double standards to their advantage.

Same with other TOS violations. As long as you lose your money, you can violate the TOS at will. You bring them money, so TOS don't matter, until they suddenly matter mysteriously.


Yep, thats their most powerful tool. A completed KYC doesn't guarantee you your money though, there are other tools


I still think it's a good thing that people can come here and talk directly to bookies representatives; maybe getting support from other members and having kind of objective investigations. It's really hard to fight against unjustified accusations alone and there are few places (if any), where you get help and support.
Bookies are really sitting tight on their money, despite earning good amounts of it. And this is not only meant in a bad way, because your funds are safer in these places with a good risk & fraud department

Hi,

Im happy to share some insights from our side for sure. Ill PM them to you in the next few days.

Steve
Sportsbet.io

Thanks for publicly listing out all the on-going issues that most of the casinos/sportsbooks have.

Our team is more than welcome to discuss each individually as well as listen to the community and note down their feedback.



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Tornike

Very accurately noticed, since mainly transaction fees are covered by customers, the final amount can vary in the 5-10 dollars (depending on which parameters are used 30/50 sat/vB, etc). I'm not sure that in such cases the bookmaker can refer to the TOC, unless the document does not specify the required number of blocks for confirmation in advance [unfinished thought ... ].

I've been meaning to address this for several months. I have been reluctant to create this topic myself as I'm not a punter, nor do I enjoy taking on the house. My habits don't really matter here. I also made this in reputation as this is where these issues end up, here or as a scam accusation.

My goal here is to provide clarity for the community, accusers, defendants and activists. There will obviously be some grey areas but I would like a rando to be able to read through this and then have enough understanding to look at a scam accusation, or feedback and have a sense of the nest steps to be taken, or even whether there is any credibility to the claim.

The initiative is to bring together allmost voices who have a vested interest in online crypto positive sportsbooks/casinos. There are a lot out there and new ones popping up each day. The end of 2020 and the start of price action brought a lot of scams and accusations both false and real. This presented a few problems.

- There is very little recourse for a wronged party to go after some of these businesses
- There are a lot of people attempting to take advantage of these businesses - This brings some false positives
- Some of the BTCT community thinks we have authority or power over these businesses
- KYC - as a term is tossed around as if it's a scam in itself, when used as a tool by the businesses
- Failures in writing, reading and understanding the TOS
- Selective scamming is a real possibility
- Lack of information given to the public to protect business "scam" busting techniques

The list below will grow or shrink with input. I would like it to contain any and all standards we know of or can expect when these cases arise. Maybe this will also allow some of these platforms to see possible points of concern that can be removed or addressed in an attempt to improve their PR overall.

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Deposits
- Amounts deposited (less any previous withdrawals) are returned to a "customer" who has been found in violation of TOS.
- Usually subject to certain requirements before being released for withdrawal - AML
- Conversion rate should be known at time of deposit, if converted to FIAT on site


Withdrawals
- Don't be surprised if your no KYC site asks for KYC documents at this stage. The vast majority of these cases have to do with prize size, withdrawal amount and/or timing in relation to deposits. Some times this is KYC as you have been flagged for possible TOS violations. The other side is it can be the beginning of an exit scam and/or selective scamming.
- Received amount should be known beforehand. Including conversion if from FIAT, as well as transaction fees for the network.

Account Investigation
- If they ask for KYC, you have no choice but to provide it.
- A VPN is probably going to result in your account being investigated, and/or could be against TOS.
- I don't know the threshold for being flagged. If flagged for investigation BTCT can't do anything to change that. You still have to comply with their requests.

**Self- moderated to maintain discussion and quality. Any deleted posts will be quoted and moved to a thread yet to be created.