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Topic: Stealth address with SX (anonymous payments) - page 5. (Read 25919 times)

alp
full member
Activity: 284
Merit: 101
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.

The way things are going with twister integration, it won't even matter whether we call them "stealth" addresses at all, because the average user won't even know they exist! When they make a payment it'll be to an identity - a person - not to some incomprehensible string of numbers. From that perspective, call them whatever you want.

Exactly. Addresses in general are going to be replaced by various payment protocols and identification systems. I think a good analogy is DNS: the vast majority of the time you type a DNS name into your URL bar in your browser. Behind the scenes that gets resolved to an IP address, and the fact that you can type an IP address instead of a DNS name is only possible because sometimes advanced users and developers need to debug things at a lower-level than you normally would use. Just like 95% of users have probably never heard the term "IPv4 address" in the future 95% of users will have never heard the term "stealth address"

As for now, we've got a lot of great press using the term, and changing the name now for vague reasons of "acceptability" will just confuse people when we start rolling out stealth address support in wallets for the early adopters to use.

Anyway, enough with this silly bike-shedding; lets get some work done.

I'm not pleased with any of the alternative names either, and as long as it is transparent to the user, all is well with me!

There still needs to be a name, though, even if it is the default.  Users do know of "web address" to visit their webpage even if they don't know the magic of how it works underneath.  Even something as bland as Payment Identifier could work for this purpose.  Stealth address would be one specific type of such an identifier that could be used for more technical people who want to understand the guts.

Look at how much damage has to be undone because of a poorly named "Bitcoin Address".  Names are far more than bikeshedding and can lead people to make very incorrect assumptions and lead people astray.  My concern is mostly about mainstreaming the Stealth Address feature while not putting it in some pigeonhole of "oooh scary advanced secret stuff only bad people use".  People that care about privacy are not going to be the target here.  It's the people who say "so what" to the privacy claim.  Stealth buys them nothing.  But make it work without them knowing and you could call it ice cream dump truck and it's just as good.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Quote
Anyway, enough with this silly bike-shedding; lets get some work done.

I think I just got a glimpse of lead dev in waiting ....
legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1160
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.

The way things are going with twister integration, it won't even matter whether we call them "stealth" addresses at all, because the average user won't even know they exist! When they make a payment it'll be to an identity - a person - not to some incomprehensible string of numbers. From that perspective, call them whatever you want.

Exactly. Addresses in general are going to be replaced by various payment protocols and identification systems. I think a good analogy is DNS: the vast majority of the time you type a DNS name into your URL bar in your browser. Behind the scenes that gets resolved to an IP address, and the fact that you can type an IP address instead of a DNS name is only possible because sometimes advanced users and developers need to debug things at a lower-level than you normally would use. Just like 95% of users have probably never heard the term "IPv4 address" in the future 95% of users will have never heard the term "stealth address"

As for now, we've got a lot of great press using the term, and changing the name now for vague reasons of "acceptability" will just confuse people when we start rolling out stealth address support in wallets for the early adopters to use.

Anyway, enough with this silly bike-shedding; lets get some work done.
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.

The way things are going with twister integration, it won't even matter whether we call them "stealth" addresses at all, because the average user won't even know they exist! When they make a payment it'll be to an identity - a person - not to some incomprehensible string of numbers. From that perspective, call them whatever you want.
alp
full member
Activity: 284
Merit: 101
My concern with the name Stealth Address is that it will end up being a niche feature that most people will not use.  Peter's "Ohh, privacy is good!" argument makes sense among his peers, but will fall flat on most common users.  Most people "Have nothing to hide" and aren't threatened by privacy, even with all the leaks and damage done.  This should be viewed as a standard and non-scary option, and not something for criminals and troublemakers only.  Stealth has those connotations, and I have a feeling it will become put in a corner.  I think he is also a bit biased in that the super-plugged-in people (aka meetup attendees) have heard of this term and it's too late to change it.  I disagree that it's really that well known, even within the Bitcoin community.

Names seem to fall out of describing how something is used or describing what it does.  We should also focus describing traditional addresses as well, to see if there might be a way to relabel them.
member
Activity: 115
Merit: 10
In a separate post I describe thoughts on how stealth addresses can be used to prevent third parties from learning BOTH the recipient address and the payment amount.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/anonymous-transaction-amount-via-stealth-addresses-419097
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
Cool  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If I understand it correct, the sender must know the stealth address from the receiver and the receiver must know the nonce from the sender, so information need to be exchanged both way, comparing with the standard way of only providing a receiving address?

This creates a strong use-case for Twister adoption: Put your stealth address in your twister profile. When you send a payment, send a direct message with the nonce to the receiver. DM's are encrypted in twister. Take it a step further: bake this feature into every bitcoin-twister client so the user never even sees their stealth address. Then, all bitcoin payments reduce to "1.5mB @bob". It takes all the centralization out of the current tipping schemes and makes them forward-anonymous by default.

ssshhhh you're giving away my secrets Wink

Sorry. I just can't help myself. Haven't even been sleeping since my mind exploded over this. What I just realized is that your client could by default display your balance in your local currency based on geolocation data. This means users wouldn't even know they're using bitcoin!

Alice: +$5.00 @bob
Bob sees his account balance is now 66.35 pesos
Carol: Hey @Alice, @Bob have you heard of bitcoin?
Bob and Alice: wtf is bitcoin?
Carol: it's what made your transaction possible!
Bob: yeah.. And?
Alice: @Carol stop being a smartass
member
Activity: 91
Merit: 10
This is a huge development, gotta love the community.
donator
Activity: 674
Merit: 523
I said nothing  Grin

LOL  Grin

BTW: Thanks so much for this development, it really is GREAT!
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cool  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If I understand it correct, the sender must know the stealth address from the receiver and the receiver must know the nonce from the sender, so information need to be exchanged both way, comparing with the standard way of only providing a receiving address?

This creates a strong use-case for Twister adoption: Put your stealth address in your twister profile. When you send a payment, send a direct message with the nonce to the receiver. DM's are encrypted in twister. Take it a step further: bake this feature into every bitcoin-twister client so the user never even sees their stealth address. Then, all bitcoin payments reduce to "1.5mB @bob". It takes all the centralization out of the current tipping schemes and makes them forward-anonymous by default.

ssshhhh you're giving away my secrets Wink

I said nothing  Grin
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1076
Cool  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If I understand it correct, the sender must know the stealth address from the receiver and the receiver must know the nonce from the sender, so information need to be exchanged both way, comparing with the standard way of only providing a receiving address?

This creates a strong use-case for Twister adoption: Put your stealth address in your twister profile. When you send a payment, send a direct message with the nonce to the receiver. DM's are encrypted in twister. Take it a step further: bake this feature into every bitcoin-twister client so the user never even sees their stealth address. Then, all bitcoin payments reduce to "1.5mB @bob". It takes all the centralization out of the current tipping schemes and makes them forward-anonymous by default.

ssshhhh you're giving away my secrets Wink
newbie
Activity: 21
Merit: 0
Cool  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If I understand it correct, the sender must know the stealth address from the receiver and the receiver must know the nonce from the sender, so information need to be exchanged both way, comparing with the standard way of only providing a receiving address?

This creates a strong use-case for Twister adoption: Put your stealth address in your twister profile. When you send a payment, send a direct message with the nonce to the receiver. DM's are encrypted in twister. Take it a step further: bake this feature into every bitcoin-twister client so the user never even sees their stealth address. Then, all bitcoin payments reduce to "1.5mB @bob". It takes all the centralization out of the current tipping schemes and makes them forward-anonymous by default.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
Cool  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If I understand it correct, the sender must know the stealth address from the receiver and the receiver must know the nonce from the sender, so information need to be exchanged both way, comparing with the standard way of only providing a receiving address?

Yes
legendary
Activity: 1988
Merit: 1012
Beyond Imagination
Cool  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

If I understand it correct, the sender must know the stealth address from the receiver and the receiver must know the nonce from the sender, so information need to be exchanged both way, comparing with the standard way of only providing a receiving address?
legendary
Activity: 1232
Merit: 1076
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1029
subscribing
sr. member
Activity: 469
Merit: 253
My thoughts on my why stealth addresses should be called stealth addresses:


Yes, I've just been reading and thinking about this. It is closely related to what I was just discussing with fellowtraveler; are we going to try to hide the fact that Bitcoin can be relatively anonymous? I know the core idea here is just to give some privacy in a certain context, but especially when combined with coinjoin and other techs, what we're doing here is really exploring how close we can get to proper anonymity. I find it really disingenuous when I hear a certain brand of Bitcoin advocate constantly parrot the line "oh, it's nowhere near as anonymous as cash, it's traceable, the blockchain is completely public". This line was trotted out by everyone at the Senate hearings too. To me it's some kind of wishful thinking going on here by many in the bitcoin community (including core devs) that don't wan't to pay attention to the inevitable political consequences of what they're doing. "It's neutral, it's just tech, it's not a challenge to the status quo". This is head-in-the-sand stuff.

I'm sorry if that seems like a bit of a tangent to your point. But I don't think it is. I think the whole reason people leapt into the naming debate is because they're determined not to paint Bitcoin as what it actually is - money independent of external control.

By the way, thanks for your work on this.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
My thoughts on my stealth addresses should be called stealth addresses:


I'm very against the name "reusable addresses" and strongly believe we
should stick with the name stealth addresses.
.....

Well done for this work Peter!  Smiley

good arguments all ... and of course author(s) get naming rights ... so Stealth Addresses they are I say.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Nice work Amir!

legendary
Activity: 1120
Merit: 1160
My thoughts on my stealth addresses should be called stealth addresses:


I'm very against the name "reusable addresses" and strongly believe we
should stick with the name stealth addresses.

You gotta look at it from the perspective of a user; lets take standard
pay-to-pubkey-hash addresses: I can tell my wallet to pay one as many
times as I want and everything works just great. I also can enter the
address on blockchain.info's search box, and every transaction related
to the address, and the balance of it, pops up immediately.

What is that telling me? A: Addresses starting with "1" are reusable. B:
Transactions associated with them appear to be public knowledge.

Now I upgrade my wallet software and it says I now have a "reusable"
address. My reaction is "Huh? Normal addresses are reusable, what's
special about this weird reusable address thing that my buddy Bob's
wallet software couldn't pay." I might even try to enter in a "reusable"
address in blockchain.info, which won't work, and I'll just figure
"must be some new unsupported thing" and move on with my life.

On the other hand, suppose my wallet says I now have "stealth address"
support. I'm going to think "Huh, stealth? I guess that means privacy
right? I like privacy." If I try searching for a stealth address on
blockchain.info, when it doesn't work I might think twig on "Oh right!
It said stealth addresses are private, so maybe the transactions are
hidden?" I might also think "Maybe this is like stealth/incognito mode
in my browser? So like, there's no history being kept for others to
see?" Regardless, I'm going to be thinking "well I hear scary stuff
about Bitcoin privacy, and this stealth thing sounds like it's gonna
help, so I should learn more about that"

Finally keep in mind that stealth addresses have had a tonne of very
fast, and very wide reaching PR. The name is in the public consciousness
already, and trying to change it now just because of vague bad
associations is going to throw away the momentum of that good PR and
slow down adoption. Last night I was at the Toronto Bitcoin Meetup and I
based on conversations there with people there, technical and
non-technical, almost everyone had heard about them and almost everyone
seemed to understand the basic idea of why they were a good thing. That
just wouldn't have happened with a name that tried to hide what stealth
addresses were for, and by changing the name now we risk people not
making the connection when wallet software gets upgraded to support
them.

-http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg03725.html
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