jaimedimon, that was helpful. Especially your statements about money laundering. If you pay half the price of a house in bitcoin, _that_ would be money laundering, right?
skysurfer808, I strongly believe bitcoin will become illegal for various reasons, but it still might be an alternative to gold because of its anonymity and uninterruptability features. I intend to hold any bitcoins I have when that happens for 5-10 years until an opportunity comes along that allows me to put them to use.
Topic: Surviving government crackdown - page 3. (Read 6432 times)
Let the battle begin. And yes, they (The US govt's stooge Schulmer) fired the first shot, whether that matters or not.
Interesting points brought up in this thread.
As far as alternative currencies in the USA, in may of this year the state of Utah passed a bill in their legislature allowing gold and silver to be used as currency. Utah also abolished state capital gains taxes on sales of gold and silver, though the Federal tax still applies. This is an interesting development, the question is whether Utah will be marginalized or become the trendsetter for the rest of the nation. Greshem's law does apply, and few people will end up paying their taxes with gold and silver, but this does open up interesting options.
What I find interesting is that Bitcoin and Gold/Silver based money are both beginning to come online at the same time as hedges against the dollar. I believe that a mix of both is a good way to survive inflation of fiat currency. It is a classic mix of the old and the new. Of course governments could and may ban the possession of both, as they banned Gold in 1933.
A p2p decentralized system appears to be the only way for bitcoin to survive a crackdown on current exchanges. Mainstream media is specifically mentioning Mt. Gox. This could get ugly. We live in interesting times.
Skysurfer808
As far as alternative currencies in the USA, in may of this year the state of Utah passed a bill in their legislature allowing gold and silver to be used as currency. Utah also abolished state capital gains taxes on sales of gold and silver, though the Federal tax still applies. This is an interesting development, the question is whether Utah will be marginalized or become the trendsetter for the rest of the nation. Greshem's law does apply, and few people will end up paying their taxes with gold and silver, but this does open up interesting options.
What I find interesting is that Bitcoin and Gold/Silver based money are both beginning to come online at the same time as hedges against the dollar. I believe that a mix of both is a good way to survive inflation of fiat currency. It is a classic mix of the old and the new. Of course governments could and may ban the possession of both, as they banned Gold in 1933.
A p2p decentralized system appears to be the only way for bitcoin to survive a crackdown on current exchanges. Mainstream media is specifically mentioning Mt. Gox. This could get ugly. We live in interesting times.
Skysurfer808
They won't outlaw Mt gox. That makesn o sense. They woll outlaw trade and possession of bitcoin because of money laundry and being an alternative currency. US citizens are required to use the USD. It is illegal right now.
Could you cite your sources please?
Regarding required use, I could not find it quickly but I am pretty sure no second currency is allowed.
Regarding laundry, look at http://bitcoinlaundry.com/. I steal money from a bank, buy bitcoins, launder them and cash out to USD. Easy.
US dollars are legal currency. What this means is that if someone wants to repay a debt and they offer you US dollars to do it, you are legally required to accept them. However, if it is not a debt, but just an actual transaction (buying groceries for example), they are not legally required to accept USD.
Second currencies are allowed, but no one uses them for many reasons, Greshams law being one of them, but also because it is just impractical as so few people are generally willing to accept them.
As for laundering money, you are misunderstanding how money laundering works.
Using your example of a bank robber who wanted to launder his funds, what he would have to do is funnel them into a cash business as extra revenue. They would then come out on the income statement as ordinary income, which he could then pay taxes on, and viola, laundered money.
If someone robs a bank, then buys bitcoins and launders then, then turns them back into USD, he has accomplished nothing except wasting transaction fees, as he still has a pile of cash.
TradeHill.com is probably lobbying congress right now for mt gox to get shut down.
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It sounds plausible sure, but until I see it in writing attached to a recognized body of our government, it is nothing more than a rumor.
I was taking issue with the bit about being mandated by law that we use the USD as our currency. I don't believe such a law exists.
I head of it a few times and it sounded plausible because an alternative currency destabilizes the primary one. If nobody uses the USD anymore the US could use their printed money anymore to pay anybody. Everyone knows that the US cannot live without increasing dept or printing money. That potentially threatens the live of a nation.
Oh I agreed with the money laundering part, and I know that businesses and especially exchanges have to adhere to strict laws in order to be in compliance in that regard.
I was taking issue with the bit about being mandated by law that we use the USD as our currency. I don't believe such a law exists.
I was taking issue with the bit about being mandated by law that we use the USD as our currency. I don't believe such a law exists.
They won't outlaw Mt gox. That makesn o sense. They woll outlaw trade and possession of bitcoin because of money laundry and being an alternative currency. US citizens are required to use the USD. It is illegal right now.
Could you cite your sources please?
Interesting, by point that alternative currencies are illegal in the US seems to be wrong. I believe it to be true in euro countries though where I live. The point about money laundering is correct though.
Could you cite your sources please?
My guess is that, in their zeal to sell fraudulent securities to foreigners, US banks and media have perpetrated the myth that they are all backed by ignorant, hard-working Americans who are forced by law to use the Dollar for everything.
They won't outlaw Mt gox. That makesn o sense. They woll outlaw trade and possession of bitcoin because of money laundry and being an alternative currency. US citizens are required to use the USD. It is illegal right now.
Could you cite your sources please?
Regarding required use, I could not find it quickly but I am pretty sure no second currency is allowed.
Regarding laundry, look at http://bitcoinlaundry.com/. I steal money from a bank, buy bitcoins, launder them and cash out to USD. Easy.
The US government, and likely other world governments as well will certainly attempt to outlaw Mt Gox and Bitcoins in general. They will likely succeed in completely shutting down or at least drastically changing the way Mt Gox operates. I think this is why most Bitcoin transfers will ultimately be OTC or via distributed markets. We all know that Paypal has refused to do any more transactions with Mt Gox, but you can easily transfer Paypal as either 'Payment Owed' or 'Gift' options with no Paypal protections, but also no way of them knowing what the transactions are ultimately for. I think it's safe to say there are few big fans of big government here, and we need to work on developing alternative marketplaces/exchanges to keep the enforcement officers jumping through so many hoops that ultimately Bitcoins can stand on their own.
Really don't need a USD to bitcoin exchange. Hopefully if mtgox gets shut down, then people would be more likely to offer goods and services in order to get a hand on some precious bitcoins, thus improving bitcoin economy.
They won't outlaw Mt gox. That makesn o sense. They woll outlaw trade and possession of bitcoin because of money laundry and being an alternative currency. US citizens are required to use the USD. It is illegal right now.
Could you cite your sources please?
They won't outlaw Mt gox. That makesn o sense. They woll outlaw trade and possession of bitcoin because of money laundry and being an alternative currency. US citizens are required to use the USD. It is illegal right now.
Resale value to anyone except hardcore bitcoiners will be near $0 on a practical level.
I doubt they could just "outlaw" it, but i bet they could certainly tie it up in a lot of regulation similarly to what they did with e-gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold). However I think Mt.Gox is run from japan? So i don't know if the same laws apply.
With Mt.Gox handling nearly 95% of bitcoin exchanges I think in the short term the market would react badly (perhaps a 50%+ drop, maybe more). The #bitcoin-otc irc channel would become a mass brawl. None other the other exchanges look ready for prime time at the moment, but i'm sure a new exchange would pop up fairly quickly and the price would slowly recover (more cautious than before). Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.
My 0.2cent
With Mt.Gox handling nearly 95% of bitcoin exchanges I think in the short term the market would react badly (perhaps a 50%+ drop, maybe more). The #bitcoin-otc irc channel would become a mass brawl. None other the other exchanges look ready for prime time at the moment, but i'm sure a new exchange would pop up fairly quickly and the price would slowly recover (more cautious than before). Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.
My 0.2cent
+1
I think the closure of MtGox will depress the price to $0 for a while and then it will skyrocket up again.
Without an operational exchange, how could the price go to $0? There's only a US currency equivalent as long as there is a mechanism for converting to US currency...
If anything they could potentially slow the growth, but not shut things down. They could make it very difficult to convert between currencies, demonize it, legislate against it, etc.
Things of that nature would really slow bitcoin down by making it less accessible to the average person. I could see something like this happening, as the demonizing campaign has already been started.
Things of that nature would really slow bitcoin down by making it less accessible to the average person. I could see something like this happening, as the demonizing campaign has already been started.
I doubt they could just "outlaw" it, but i bet they could certainly tie it up in a lot of regulation similarly to what they did with e-gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold). However I think Mt.Gox is run from japan? So i don't know if the same laws apply.
With Mt.Gox handling nearly 95% of bitcoin exchanges I think in the short term the market would react badly (perhaps a 50%+ drop, maybe more). The #bitcoin-otc irc channel would become a mass brawl. None other the other exchanges look ready for prime time at the moment, but i'm sure a new exchange would pop up fairly quickly and the price would slowly recover (more cautious than before). Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.
My 0.2cent
With Mt.Gox handling nearly 95% of bitcoin exchanges I think in the short term the market would react badly (perhaps a 50%+ drop, maybe more). The #bitcoin-otc irc channel would become a mass brawl. None other the other exchanges look ready for prime time at the moment, but i'm sure a new exchange would pop up fairly quickly and the price would slowly recover (more cautious than before). Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.
My 0.2cent
+1
I think the closure of MtGox will depress the price to $0 for a while and then it will skyrocket up again.
I doubt they could just "outlaw" it, but i bet they could certainly tie it up in a lot of regulation similarly to what they did with e-gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-gold). However I think Mt.Gox is run from japan? So i don't know if the same laws apply.
With Mt.Gox handling nearly 95% of bitcoin exchanges I think in the short term the market would react badly (perhaps a 50%+ drop, maybe more). The #bitcoin-otc irc channel would become a mass brawl. None other the other exchanges look ready for prime time at the moment, but i'm sure a new exchange would pop up fairly quickly and the price would slowly recover (more cautious than before). Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.
My 0.2cent
With Mt.Gox handling nearly 95% of bitcoin exchanges I think in the short term the market would react badly (perhaps a 50%+ drop, maybe more). The #bitcoin-otc irc channel would become a mass brawl. None other the other exchanges look ready for prime time at the moment, but i'm sure a new exchange would pop up fairly quickly and the price would slowly recover (more cautious than before). Maybe instead of a new centralised exchange some clever nut will develop a p2p one.
My 0.2cent
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