Sustainability of BTC - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Xervo

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Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

I do not really understand and understand the issue of miners, but it seems to me that soon bitcoin will replace a more promising and profitable currency. Which will be more profitable to mine. For example, such currency as Bitshares. Wink

dasdo

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Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

I do not really understand and understand the issue of miners, but it seems to me that soon bitcoin will replace a more promising and profitable currency. Which will be more profitable to mine. For example, such currency as Bitshares.

ldah94

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I think that, when a non-sustainable level of energy consumption is reached, it would be a good option to change the Bitcoin algorithm from "proof of work" to "proof of stake". This type of maintenance of the network requires much less energy than the generation of 'hashes proof of work' through specialized 'hardware'. In fact, it can be carried out with the personal computers of the network with the change of formula, Bitcoin could solve its energetic problem, although the idea does not seem to be near to become reality.

It is important that this issue be taken into account and seriously, the climatic consequences of this "technological development", which many think is beneficial, and in many aspects it is, could cause other major problems. Greed should not be allowed to guide the reins of bitcoin, something should be done, and it should be done soon.

BurtW

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Quote from: jkoin on December 05, 2017, 08:56:52 AM

Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

I do not really understand and understand the issue of miners, but it seems to me that soon bitcoin will replace a more promising and profitable currency. Which will be more profitable to mine.

You obviously purchased your "Hero" account. You have no idea what you are talking about.

jkoin

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Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

I do not really understand and understand the issue of miners, but it seems to me that soon bitcoin will replace a more promising and profitable currency. Which will be more profitable to mine.

BurtW

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Quote from: Lancelot04 on December 05, 2017, 08:35:04 AM

Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

Maybe it the remaining Bitcoins will be mined the price will be extremely high also for the fees. But remember that Bitcoin will be so much expensive than right now.

The higher the price of Bitcoins the more energy the mining sector will attempt to use. Raising the price of Bitcoins over time make the problem (total power consumption) worse, not better. See:

ttps://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2465881.0

Lancelot04

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Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

Maybe it the remaining Bitcoins will be mined the price will be extremely high also for the fees. But remember that Bitcoin will be so much expensive than right now.

BurtW

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Quote from: audaciousbeing on December 05, 2017, 01:17:28 AM

The sustainability of bitcoin to me is nonnegotiable. According to what I have read its going to take nothing less than 100 years from now or the last bitcoin to be mined which then suggests that until after that, we can then begin to have the discussion surrounding sustainability which several of us might not even be alive to see that happening.

On the issue of power which is something of concern, 100 years is enough to have land breaking technological advancement that could either make power much more cheaper or new ways to mine bitcoin with less power. Put all this together, point to the fact that the future is very much secure.

The block subsidy ends in about 2140. So about 123 years. However in the last four years the block subsidy will only be 0.00000001 BTC per block, the four years before that 0.00000002 BTC per block, etc.

So the block subsidy will become insignificant a long time before 2140. In fact if you look at this chart:

https://www.smartbit.com.au/charts/transaction-fees-per-block?from=2017-11-5&to=2017-12-5

You can see that we are paying about 1.25 BTC in fees per block right now.

If this stays the same (which it probably will not) then in less than 20 years the miners will be making more from fees than they will be from the block subsidy.

Again you restate "new ways to mine bitcoin with less power". You cannot be more wrong here. Go back and read this again:

Quote from: BurtW on December 04, 2017, 10:55:23 PM

Read this sentence very carefully:

By design mining efficiency has no effect on the overall power consumption. None.

I am so tired of the "in the future miners will be more efficient" lie. Over and over.

By design miners will consume all the energy they can afford. Power efficiency only affects difficulty not power consumption.

See: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-power-consumption-at-the-current-price-2465881

audaciousbeing

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The sustainability of bitcoin to me is nonnegotiable. According to what I have read its going to take nothing less than 100 years from now or the last bitcoin to be mined which then suggests that until after that, we can then begin to have the discussion surrounding sustainability which several of us might not even be alive to see that happening.

On the issue of power which is something of concern, 100 years is enough to have land breaking technological advancement that could either make power much more cheaper or new ways to mine bitcoin with less power. Put all this together, point to the fact that the future is very much secure.

Tux99

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Quote from: baradfo on December 03, 2017, 11:07:55 PM

It's a good question for the pools to answer. Eventually the last bitcoin will be mined and then the fees for bitcoin will be more than the transactions themselves. The electricity/maintenance costs will also be through the roof. I'm thinking that Satoshi didn't take into account pools in the original writing and that the more distributed network this could have worked out. With pools it's kinda hard to figure how this would play out to keep the network sustainable after the block reward goes away.

If the last bitcoin will be mined and transaction fee will be more than the total transaction, what could be happen to bitcoin itself?
Maybe people will start stop using bitcoin.
How can bitcoin become a currency if the transaction fee very high? I am doubt with it.

putlink

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From another perspective, when the cost of mining is higher than the income from mining at a certain point of time, will some people continue mining?
What happens when nobody digs?

Keptone

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Something to think of though... Waiting for more contributions to learn from

BurtW

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Quote from: squatz1 on December 04, 2017, 09:00:07 PM

Well it's not like power is really going to be a problem with Bitcoin, as we know more and more people are going to innovate when it comes to the ASICS which are used to mine Bitcoin. So power efficeny is going to be something that is hopefully (and probably) fixed by this time in the future. Renewable energy will be on the rise, and it will probably be cheaper to use -- as traditional power sources fade away (given if these companies let this happen)

Bitcoin can be sustained, it just must innovate to keep going and who knows if it's going to be able to do that. People don't want to pay high fees nor deal with 51 percent attacks. And I don't think normal users want their coin to be a traders coin, as that it pretty much what it is now.

Read this sentence very carefully:

By design mining efficiency has no effect on the overall power consumption. None.

I am so tired of the "in the future miners will be more efficient" lie. Over and over.

By design miners will consume all the energy they can afford. Power efficiency only affects difficulty not power consumption.

See: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitcoin-power-consumption-at-the-current-price-2465881

Another non-argument is that miners can use renewable energy sources. Sure, they will use them if they are cheaper but they will still use a huge amount of power - renewable or not.

squatz1

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Well it's not like power is really going to be a problem with Bitcoin, as we know more and more people are going to innovate when it comes to the ASICS which are used to mine Bitcoin. So power efficeny is going to be something that is hopefully (and probably) fixed by this time in the future. Renewable energy will be on the rise, and it will probably be cheaper to use -- as traditional power sources fade away (given if these companies let this happen)

Bitcoin can be sustained, it just must innovate to keep going and who knows if it's going to be able to do that. People don't want to pay high fees nor deal with 51 percent attacks. And I don't think normal users want their coin to be a traders coin, as that it pretty much what it is now.

CyNotes

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Quote from: Shamie1002 on December 04, 2017, 12:37:15 AM

I totally agree. Energy consumption are one of the problem nowadays. We all know that China have banned local exchanges though they have the cheapest electricity bills. I think that is the reason why some miners agreed about forks. Or else no one will mine at all questioning the sustainability of bitcoins.
How Bout countries which has no solutions for such concerns. Like you all call third world countries. Will they just stop ?

There is a high cost especially here in the Philippines, we pay electric bill with additional charges that we don't even know where it comes from. I think China banned bitcoin in their country. Their local currency will gets low value over the bitcoin and they don't wanted to get their money lose and everybody want to use bitcoin in buying, selling and trading.

gudrun

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waste energy. expensive machinery, time consuming. bitcoin is increasingly difficult to dig. That proved to be bitcoin increasingly valuable. if bitcoin turns into pos. It's too good for those who have a lot of bitcoins. They do not need to do anything.

browder07

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The more expensive the bitcoin. not only in the capital poured in. but due to the energy consumption of the miners. They need better technology. more power consumption. if bitcoin switch to pos. All the diggers will be unemployed ^^!

BurtW

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Quote from: exstasie on December 04, 2017, 05:14:49 PM

Quote from: CryptoDude2727 on December 03, 2017, 11:03:04 PM

With the power requirements to run the BTC network continually increasing... what is the long term solution? It doesn't seem viable that it can go on forever like this. Anyone have good insight? It's easy to just assume... "well there will be cheaper energy in the future" or "BTC will just switch to POS".... I guess I'm looking for answers with a little more substance and detail. Thanks!

I'm not sure what you're getting at, exactly. Bitcoin's difficulty algorithm is meant to adjust to waxing and waning levels of miner investment. As Bitcoin becomes less profitable to mine, rational marginal miners will start shutting down their operations. By the same token, hash rate continues to trend upwards because of heightened speculation on the future price of BTC.

It's a "gold rush" so to speak. It will eventually die down when profitability drops (maybe because of miner oversaturation or a long term bear market), and difficulty will adjust accordingly. Just as difficulty has been trending upwards for so long, it's okay for it to trend downwards. We just don't want to see a sudden, drastic drop in hash rate that puts security at risk by allowing old generation mining equipment to attack the network. As long as fees rise to replace the block subsidy, that risk should be mitigated.

The concern isn't the difficulty adjustment or anything having to difficulty. The concern, which I think is valid, is the total amount of energy being consumed by all the miners added together. It is a lot. If the price goes to $45,000 per BTC as some predict then the amount of energy used to mine will go up by a factor of about 4.5 and the network will consume even more power.

The question being asked is "what can be done about the total power consumption of the entire Bitcoin system". It is a fair question. Unfortunately there is no answer without fundamental changes to Bitcoin (POS instead of POW as one example) because it is working exactly as designed: miners will burn as much energy as they can afford to burn in order to secure the system.

Reid

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I am seeing a large number of transactions that will happen if ever there will be no more to be mined.
That is all the miners could get, but I am guessing it will be expensive transactions also if we are always converting.
If it will just be bitcoin to bitcoin without the conversion then we will look at it as cheap prices.
Thousands of satoshis? Maybe decrease the price of bitcoin just so we will never look at dollar anymore.

yoseph

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Quote from: FaithETH on December 04, 2017, 04:44:35 PM

It's indeed something to be concerned of. Any research and development may need to try and find out how to make it less energy consuming to mine bitcoin. It will be in demand after all, nobody want outrageous transaction fees. Me personally I would like to see this worked on really quickly so we can be sure that we aren't in for a crazy ride.

If the issue with the absurd transaction fees are not fixed any time from now, i doubt that people are going to keep patronizing bitcoins as we do now, I will not be surprised if we start paying $100 as transactions fees because of the greed of some miners.

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