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Topic: Swapping cards # for RMAs. (Sapphire xtreme dying after ~1 year) (Read 2821 times)

legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1005
No one has studied the effects of electromigration on 40 nm chips for a decade because they haven't been around for a decade! But if you run them on stock clocks at undervolted settings, my money is on that they will last a decade.

I've had a 1055T overvolted to 1.5v and loaded for pretty much all of its couple year lifetime, and no problems yet...  Keep it cool and it's hard to fry.  The problem is probably insufficient cooling and cheap PCBs/MOSFETs/chokes.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I do this all the time ... that's why I am a scammer Tongue

This behaviour is driving the GPU prices up for everyone Angry

Also, don't forget to OC the card to 1100 MHz clock then when it dies blame it was DOA or it broke by itself for extra scam points !
You're an idiot.  Overclocking doesn't break cards.

That's why overclocking does not void your warranty. Idioto !
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
Why list one one of the meaningless, complex, and rare failure modes when there's a much easier and obvious one for a novice to failure analysis to grasp?

He asked a question I gave him an answer.  
Transisto didn't ask what is the most likely cause of failure.  He asked why won't a microprocessor last a century.

Not every post in the thread has to directly relate to the OP.  Case in point your idiotic past 3 posts.  Feel free to have the last word.


And you chose one of the more difficult explanations as a goal to make sure he could not understand what you were saying?

Actually, you didnt even explain it, you just linked to it. Way to contribute to a discussion, idiot.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Why list one one of the meaningless, complex, and rare failure modes when there's a much easier and obvious one for a novice to failure analysis to grasp?

He asked a question I gave him an answer. 
Transisto didn't ask what is the most likely cause of failure.  He asked why won't a microprocessor last a century.

Not every post in the thread has to directly relate to the OP.  Case in point your idiotic past 3 posts.  Feel free to have the last word.

full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
"centuries" =/= "the dominant factor in graphics card failure"

Obvious troll is obvious.

Why list one one of the meaningless, complex, and rare failure modes when there's a much easier and obvious one for a novice to failure analysis to grasp?

I think you're the one trolling here.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
"centuries" =/= "the dominant factor in graphics card failure"

Obvious troll is obvious.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
It would never come to my mind that an intel CPU would not perform it's job for centuries, how is this so different ?

No semiconductor will last centuries.  It is unlikely they even would last a decade of continual use.  As chips get smaller their lifespan will decrease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration

And yet you link to an Electromigration wikipedia page in answer to Transisto's question that a graphics card would not perform its job for centuries?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Also, I find it a bit preposterous to consider that electromigration is the dominant factor in graphics card failure over time. I think its more likely one of the those capacitors leak or the MOSFETs blows.

I think it is a bit preposterous that you believe anyone said it was the dominant factor.  Hint: nobody did.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
Also, I find it a bit preposterous to consider that electromigration is the dominant factor in graphics card failure over time. I think its more likely one of the those capacitors leak or the MOSFETs blows.

Electromigration is mostly a factor of the fabrication process. There are professional devices that are built on the same exact process (and sometimes even using the same chips) that are required to operate for a decade.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
I have a AMD K6 that begs to differ.

Your K6 has been running at 100% load continuously for 10 years?  I think not.

Even if it had it had a gate size of 350nm.  A modern CPU/GPU has a gate size of 28nm to 40nm.  The smaller the gates become the less material that can be eroded from electromigration before gate failure occurs.

Still I said "unlikely".  Every chip suffers from electromigration from the moment current is applied to the moment it fails.  There is some variance in the failure rates but every chip will fail.  

No, it's only been, I dont know, 15 years since I've bought it. You have to remember old chips like these dont have power-gating like newer chips nowadays, so yes, idling is the same thing as loading it up, as far as electromigration goes.

No one has studied the effects of electromigration on 40 nm chips for a decade because they haven't been around for a decade! But if you run them on stock clocks at undervolted settings, my money is on that they will last a decade.
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
I do this all the time ... that's why I am a scammer Tongue

This behaviour is driving the GPU prices up for everyone Angry

Also, don't forget to OC the card to 1100 MHz clock then when it dies blame it was DOA or it broke by itself for extra scam points !
You're an idiot.  Overclocking doesn't break cards.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
I do this all the time ... that's why I am a scammer Tongue

This behaviour is driving the GPU prices up for everyone Angry

Also, don't forget to OC the card to 1100 MHz clock then when it dies blame it was DOA or it broke by itself for extra scam points !
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
I have a AMD K6 that begs to differ.

Your K6 has been running at 100% load continuously for 10 years?  I think not.

Even if it had it had a gate size of 350nm.  A modern CPU/GPU has a gate size of 28nm to 40nm.  The smaller the gates become the less material that can be eroded from electromigration before gate failure occurs.

Still I said "unlikely".  Every chip suffers from electromigration from the moment current is applied to the moment it fails.  There is some variance in the failure rates but every chip will fail. 

Now the 100btc question : What is the expected effect of electromigration on lifetime of 40 and 28nm parts from ATI ?
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
I have a AMD K6 that begs to differ.

Your K6 has been running at 100% load continuously for 10 years?  I think not.

Even if it had it had a gate size of 350nm.  A modern CPU/GPU has a gate size of 28nm to 40nm.  The smaller the gates become the less material that can be eroded from electromigration before gate failure occurs.

Still I said "unlikely".  Every chip suffers from electromigration from the moment current is applied to the moment it fails.  There is some variance in the failure rates but every chip will fail. 
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
It would never come to my mind that an intel CPU would not perform it's job for centuries, how is this so different ?

No semiconductor will last centuries.  It is unlikely they even would last a decade of continual use.  As chips get smaller their lifespan will decrease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration

I have a AMD K6 that begs to differ.
donator
Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008
Quote
The first contribution of this paper is to analyze the aging impact of TDDB, EM and HCE on Xilinx style FPGAs using a set of MCNC benchmarks. Our results show that a significant portion of the FPGA resources may fail in the first 3 to 5 years of operation.

http://www.cse.psu.edu/~yuanxie/Papers/DAC06.pdf

 Shocked OMG I didn't knew MTTF could be that low.

It's hard to get clear data on ASIC's MTTF.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
It's not planned obsolescence. We're basically stress testing these cards 24-7 for a year on end. Build out of warranty failures into your business plan, purchase extended warranties, etc. Your rationalization is ridiculous.
+1.
I consider it sort of lucky that the manufacturers still warranty the cards at all, considering the torturous non-typical usage we put them through.  I would imagine there's some sort of "normal use" clause in their warranty contract that they could utilize if they wanted to.
What is abnormal playing video games 24/365 ?

Seriously, I don't think because it's used mostly by gamers that our use of it is abnormal.  ATI state mining as a feature of their card on their website.

It would never come to my mind that an intel CPU would not perform it's job for centuries, how is this so different ?

I am personally monitoring my cards to make sure temps are never out of range, fan is ok, and heatsink is clean, ~65c in open air.   I think these are better working condition than a gamer with a poor ventilated case that leave heatsink get clogged with dust .
Ok, you got me there (with the bolded bit).

A CPU is a much simpler device.  I would bet that 99% of the time, the main GPU chip itself is not what fails - failure is usually due to some other component on the GPU board, like capacitors, microfractures in traces, etc.  Likewise, if a CPU was integrated in a motherboard, you'd find that they fail much more often, but 99% of those failures would be motherboards, not the CPU itself.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
It would never come to my mind that an intel CPU would not perform it's job for centuries, how is this so different ?

No semiconductor will last centuries.  It is unlikely they even would last a decade of continual use.  As chips get smaller their lifespan will decrease.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromigration
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Getting serial # from the card is pretty trivial I would be surprised if they didn't pull the internal  serial # and compare it to the sticker when processing an RMA.  I would imagine the OP isn't the first to think of this.  

Then again maybe they are lazy and don't check.  For the OP it is essentially a wager where you are wagering a good warranty (50 weeks remaining) against the hope that you will get this card repaired (instead of the second one).  
Seems like a foolish bet to me.
donator
Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008
It's not planned obsolescence. We're basically stress testing these cards 24-7 for a year on end. Build out of warranty failures into your business plan, purchase extended warranties, etc. Your rationalization is ridiculous.
+1.
I consider it sort of lucky that the manufacturers still warranty the cards at all, considering the torturous non-typical usage we put them through.  I would imagine there's some sort of "normal use" clause in their warranty contract that they could utilize if they wanted to.
What is abnormal playing video games 24/365 ?

Seriously, I don't think because it's used mostly by gamers that our use of it is abnormal.  ATI state mining as a feature of their card on their website.

It would never come to my mind that an intel CPU would not perform it's job for centuries, how is this so different ?

I am personally monitoring my cards to make sure temps are never out of range, fan is ok, and heatsink is clean, ~65c in open air.   I think these are better working condition than a gamer with a poor ventilated case that leave heatsink get clogged with dust .
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