Sweden proposed to ban mining in the European Union - page 2.

Swapzone_pr

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Quote from: Fortify on November 11, 2021, 07:15:19 AM

Quote from: Swapzone_pr on November 10, 2021, 09:17:42 AM

At first, the headline elicited a "what?"

Then I read this:

"Swedish regulators believe cryptocurrency mining will prevent the country and the EU from complying with the Paris agreement on climate change

And again "come on"

But then it turned out that officials called for a ban in the European Union for mining cryptocurrencies using the Proof-of-Work algorithm.

In general, okay, Ethereum developers are already planning to abandon PoW in favour of the Proof-of-Stake algorithm, what will happen with other coins, will they also switch to a new algorithm or will they blow off these news?

Maybe you should include a link to a reputable news article if you're going to throw this out there. If it were to be true then it sort of fits in with the Scandinavian mentality of responsible and long term thinking (in comparison to other countries). If Bitcoin is to become a solid global e-currency then it really does need to address this issue, but it seems impossible at least until all the Bitcoin are mined and it turns purely into transaction network. There are much bigger environmental issues that could be targeted before going after cryptocurrency, but I can see the EU politicians going after this easy target - compared to say figuring out the oil/gas issue.

You're right I should have put I link, but actually you can just google the headline and get a lot of medias with the news

https://news.bitcoin.com/swedish-regulators-call-for-eu-ban-on-crypto-mining-power-company-defends-industry/ https://www.aroged.com/2021/11/11/sweden-proposed-to-ban-mining-in-the-european-union/ and etc

Fortify

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Quote from: Swapzone_pr on November 10, 2021, 09:17:42 AM

At first, the headline elicited a "what?"

Then I read this:

"Swedish regulators believe cryptocurrency mining will prevent the country and the EU from complying with the Paris agreement on climate change

And again "come on"

But then it turned out that officials called for a ban in the European Union for mining cryptocurrencies using the Proof-of-Work algorithm.

In general, okay, Ethereum developers are already planning to abandon PoW in favour of the Proof-of-Stake algorithm, what will happen with other coins, will they also switch to a new algorithm or will they blow off these news?

Maybe you should include a link to a reputable news article if you're going to throw this out there. If it were to be true then it sort of fits in with the Scandinavian mentality of responsible and long term thinking (in comparison to other countries). If Bitcoin is to become a solid global e-currency then it really does need to address this issue, but it seems impossible at least until all the Bitcoin are mined and it turns purely into transaction network. There are much bigger environmental issues that could be targeted before going after cryptocurrency, but I can see the EU politicians going after this easy target - compared to say figuring out the oil/gas issue.

kryptqnick

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on November 10, 2021, 10:36:14 AM

The main calls they make are a move to:

Quote

We therefore call for:
1.   The EU to consider an EU-level ban on the energy-intensive mining method proof of work. There are other methods for mining crypto-assets, that could also be used for Bitcoin and Ethereum, that are estimated to reduce energy consumption by 99.95% with maintained functionality.
2.   Sweden to meanwhile introduce measures that halt the continued establishment of crypto-mining production using energy-intensive methods.
3.   That companies who trade and invest in crypto-assets, that were mined using the proof of work method, cannot be allowed to describe or market themselves or their activities as sustainable.

Frankly, rather that the above, they should set their focus on how to reduce substantially the price of energy within Europe. Reducing CO2 footprint, whilst being a global objective, should not pivot to massively increasing energy prices as a counterpart.

What do they mean exactly by other methods of mining that could be used for Bitcoin? Do they really try to say that Bitcoin can turn to PoS or something? I mean, it's definitely not going to happen. Also, how about their ban coal mining in the EU, offer incentives for electric cars and higher prices for traditional ones? I truly think that banning crypto mining isn't the way. Energy consumption will increase, so the only way forward is to ensure that this energy is as clean as possible. Also, since climate change is a global issue, they should work more on pressing the US and China to do better. If the EU becomes very eco-friendly, but China and the US keep living as they do now, it's not going to help.

dkbit98

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I don't know when Greta Thunberg became supreme ruler of Sweden but this hypocrisy with climate change is getting out of control.
All this politicians and their leaders like Michael Bloomberg are all traveling with many of their private jets and helicopters, they drive multiple cars, have multiple houses and real estate ownership,
but they are telling regular people should stop driving cars, and we should all stop bitcoin mining because it's boiling the oceans (not), so they propose more bans and tyranny.
In the end, I would not be surprised if some EU countries continue going the road like their role model communist China did, but I doubt it will happen in all member countries.

Welsh

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Quote from: dothebeats on November 10, 2021, 12:00:04 PM

Instead of banning cryptomining as a whole, why don't they sanction some other industries that are using too much energy and are contributing less on towards the economy? Or better, why not tone down on energy use on all sectors in order to meet the quota/demand of the Paris agreement? It's as if cryptomining is the only culprit to this long-standing problem, and the only solution there is in order to cut down on carbon emissions is to kill it.

It's a harsh call, but then again I expect to see most of the EU to follow suit on the suggestions. Perhaps not to the degree of banning cryptomining as a whole, but making it hard for miners to keep a steady operation going.

Simple, those industries that you're alluding too are beneficial to the very politicians that re proposing this idea. Just think about it; they need oil, they need fossil fuels, however they don't actually need Bitcoin, therefore to save face, and prove they're doing something about climate change they'll focus their attention on limiting the production of Bitcoin. Depending on how much of a conspiracy theorist you're then you could potentially argue that they're killing two birds with one stone with this approach.

Honestly, the way the world is going with climate change being the buzz word on everyone's tongue I expect a lot of countries to follow suit, and ban Bitcoin mining, and they'll blame it on Proof Of Work.

mynonce

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Quote from: Swapzone_pr on November 10, 2021, 09:17:42 AM

At first, the headline elicited a "what?"

https://news.bitcoin.com/swedish-regulators-call-for-eu-ban-on-crypto-mining-power-company-defends-industry/

https://bitcoinist.com/swedish-regulators-propose-pow-mining-ban-state-owned-power-company-defends-it/

avikz

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Quote from: Swapzone_pr on November 10, 2021, 09:17:42 AM

At first, the headline elicited a "what?"

Then I read this:

"Swedish regulators believe cryptocurrency mining will prevent the country and the EU from complying with the Paris agreement on climate change

And again "come on"

But then it turned out that officials called for a ban in the European Union for mining cryptocurrencies using the Proof-of-Work algorithm.

In general, okay, Ethereum developers are already planning to abandon PoW in favour of the Proof-of-Stake algorithm, what will happen with other coins, will they also switch to a new algorithm or will they blow off these news?

That's really odd! Because I believe Sweden was the first country in the world to create a completely cashless economy quite successfully. That shows their technical advancements but now with this comment, I would think twice before calling them advanced.

I am sure the government officials are misguided by the banking lobby. The banking industry has seen that they are unable to fight with the popularity of bitcoin. So they are trying to take different ways to fight it and this could be one if those different ways.

franky1

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Quote from: dothebeats on November 10, 2021, 12:00:04 PM

Instead of banning cryptomining as a whole, why don't they sanction some other industries that are using too much energy and are contributing less on towards the economy?

to legally be able to offer sanctions. they first need to ban it and then offer licences/permits with rules, which if broke come with penalties like sanctions

dothebeats

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Instead of banning cryptomining as a whole, why don't they sanction some other industries that are using too much energy and are contributing less on towards the economy? Or better, why not tone down on energy use on all sectors in order to meet the quota/demand of the Paris agreement? It's as if cryptomining is the only culprit to this long-standing problem, and the only solution there is in order to cut down on carbon emissions is to kill it.

It's a harsh call, but then again I expect to see most of the EU to follow suit on the suggestions. Perhaps not to the degree of banning cryptomining as a whole, but making it hard for miners to keep a steady operation going.

suzanne5223

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It is funny how some government behaves aggressively as cryptocurrency mining is the major problem to waste energy and the cause of climate change when all this has been in existence before the creation of Bitcoin. I don't know why I have the feeling that this is just another strategy to manipulate the price of the Bitcoin market cause once POS is abducted there's no decentralization.

franky1

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IN-BEFORE-NEXT-COUNTRY

ALL countries will have to ban/prohibit bitcoin.
why
because its the only legal method to then have control of licencing/permits of use of bitcoin within institutions.

a bank does not have permission to offer investments in bitcoin unless it has authorisation from government
a government cant offer permission unless it first took away the use of it.

its the same thing as alcohol prohibition
prostitution prohibition
gambling
and many others

they cant regulate, licence, insure, police something until they first ban it.. then they have control of who they can allow to use it under their licence.

take the NY bitlicence
they had to ban all bitcoin activity in NY .. and then just months later offer the bitlicence..

DapanasFruit

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What can happen is just like what transpired recently with China...miners just move to other countries that can accept the business. Nothing more nothing less. And yes, there are already states in USA that are encouraging miners to come. Or maybe they can shift to El Salvador and get the power from a geothermal source then be certified as a green Bitcoin miner. When one window closed, there can be a door that opens.

fiulpro

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Bulk of the energy sources used in countries are non renewable. Therefore this is bound to happen sooner of later, at the end of the day until and unless the government makes a sound decision to explore their countrie's renewable sources of energy, it would not only be ban on mining, soon enough there might be power shortage or worse. Plus Germany, UK, Sweden and Spain are the top 4 in using renewable sources of energy as well.

The reason why the price is so high is not even because of that, the demand fell due to covid and now suddenly it's sky rocketing so the producers are struggling to make it work now.

In few years this situation would be even worse, therefore I do believe that, Sweden might influence the global market in regards to mining for sure, not at such a high scale but yes the influence might be there since this is not the problem of one sole country. I do believe it's high time mining companies explore renewable sources of energy.

Lucius

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Sweden can suggest whatever comes to the minds of their politicians, but it is foolish to expect the rest of the EU to agree. Recently, a united Europe could not even agree on whether there will be daylight saving time changes after spending years discussing it. This is obviously bad news for those who have their crypto mining operations in that country, but I have no doubt that some other countries could follow their example.

Interestingly, when it comes to energy consumption, they always find Bitcoin as a starting point for change. Globally, the 0.2% of electricity consumed annually in BTC mining is obviously quite a problem for some.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: DdmrDdmr on November 10, 2021, 10:36:14 AM

Frankly, rather that the above, they should set their focus on how to reduce substantially the price of energy within Europe. Reducing CO2 footprint, whilst being a global objective, should not pivot to massively increasing energy prices as a counterpart.

That's correct. The overall energy consumption is bound to rise. But the politicians pursue short-medium term goals (so they can brag with some results and ask for re-election) instead of looking on the big picture and give it a good long-term thinking.

Solar energy is great, but filling all the crops with solar panels is silly.
Wind power is great, but from that I know those huge carbon fiber blades cannot be recycled properly.
Nuclear fission is considered dangerous.
Nuclear fusion is a nice dream. Not reality.
Burning fossil fuels is bad for environment.
Hydro power is not that great either - at least for the few that have to be relocated when new dams are created or when they break (!).

OK, hydro still wins imho. But that's not enough. Something more has to be done, and that in max 10 years. I mean, nowadays, politically, burning methane for creating electricity is "better" than nuclear fission. I don't know... I think that there's more of politics than science in those decisions and it's a shame.

PS. I'm not a big fan of nuclear fission either, but I just don't see yet a proper alternative to that.

Ucy

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Has nothing to do with Proof of Work consensus mechanism. It's a true consensus mechanism that any True Cryptocurrency will always depend on for true public concensus. I guess they are simply concerned about the amount of energy that goes into concentrated mining.

You don't mention Proof of Work along side Proof of Stake when talking about decentralized cryptocurrency. PoS is actually a meaningless scam if you think through the idea deeply. It has no place in the world of True Cryptocurrency.

PoW is very anti-fragile and crypto friendly. I hope costly mistakes that lead to easy takeover are not made in the future by crypto projects.

DarkDays

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Quote from: ChiBitCTy on November 10, 2021, 10:23:22 AM

This is an interesting update and I wonder how many other countries will start to ask about these types of things when it comes to changing laws. Of course the problem here is that proof of stake is not as good of a system as proof of work is.

I don't know if I can call it interesting but the news is definitely one that might lead to similar ideas. Though, I do not feel Sweden has the same influence on this as China once did, and as we know having an agreement reached by all the counties of the EU is no easy task. Even if this becomes a recognisable approval it will take time to be implemented.

Though, overall something to keep an outlook for as I expect more of these news to emerge.

DdmrDdmr

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If you want to read the full joint statement from the Director General at the Swedish Financial Supervisory Authority and the Björn Risinger, Director General at the Swedish Environmental Protection Agency, here it is:
https://www.fi.se/en/published/presentations/2021/crypto-assets-are-a-threat-to-the-climate-transition--energy-intensive-mining-should-be-banned/

The main calls they make are a move to:

Quote

We therefore call for:
1.   The EU to consider an EU-level ban on the energy-intensive mining method proof of work. There are other methods for mining crypto-assets, that could also be used for Bitcoin and Ethereum, that are estimated to reduce energy consumption by 99.95% with maintained functionality.
2.   Sweden to meanwhile introduce measures that halt the continued establishment of crypto-mining production using energy-intensive methods.
3.   That companies who trade and invest in crypto-assets, that were mined using the proof of work method, cannot be allowed to describe or market themselves or their activities as sustainable.

Frankly, rather that the above, they should set their focus on how to reduce substantially the price of energy within Europe. Reducing CO2 footprint, whilst being a global objective, should not pivot to massively increasing energy prices as a counterpart.

ChiBitCTy

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This is an interesting update and I wonder how many other countries will start to ask about these types of things when it comes to changing laws. Of course the problem here is that proof of stake is not as good of a system as proof of work is.

mk4

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No. Bitcoin using PoS would defeat one of it's main advantages: decentralization. What would happen would be the exact same thing that happened when China banned Bitcoin — it's pretty much just miners moving to other countries.

Topic: Sweden proposed to ban mining in the European Union - page 2. (Read 393 times)