Swiss parliamentary postulate: Bitcoin is a currency

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: garan on December 18, 2013, 12:33:32 PM

Ok, I see. What should it be for only one of us to pay VAT? A currency? Grin

From what I could understand from the post made by Hermel, there will be no VAT on Bitcoins for Swiss residents. There will be a wealth tax, but it is not very heavy (maximum will be around 1.6%).

On the other hand, if you are living in Norway you will have to pay VAT on bitcoin purchases.

Kaligulax

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Bitcoin is an asset, perhaps implicitly superior to fiat currencies, or a currency. It is interesting that the BIS affiliated central banks believe that it is an asset.

Lethn

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Quote from: garan on December 17, 2013, 05:21:31 PM

I'm not really convinced the parliament should recognize bitcoins as a currency like e.g. CHF, USD. What advantages would this recognition provide aside from having recognition from a parliament? Less taxes?
Also, wouldn't it be enough if the parliament recognizes it as a legal asset or commodity (like gold, silver, etc.)?

It's a question of simply calling Bitcoin what it is, 'private money' as opposed to doing the UK or American thing of applying whatever definition they like to it despite it's purpose being blatantly obvious to anyone with a brain.

garan

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Ok, I see. What should it be for only one of us to pay VAT? A currency? Grin

SimonBelmond

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Quote from: garan on December 17, 2013, 05:21:31 PM

I'm not really convinced the parliament should recognize bitcoins as a currency like e.g. CHF, USD. What advantages would this recognition provide aside from having recognition from a parliament? Less taxes?
Also, wouldn't it be enough if the parliament recognizes it as a legal asset or commodity (like gold, silver, etc.)?

Commodity would not be desriable as you would have to pay VAT on it (except for gold in bullions). So if you sell me your cake for BTC we would both have to pay VAT. This would basically kill legal BTC trade in Switzerland. And yes, I think it is very desirable to have legal clarity. No medium to big businesses would want to sell things for BTC if it is not properly defined how to handle it.

garan

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I'm not really convinced the parliament should recognize bitcoins as a currency like e.g. CHF, USD. What advantages would this recognition provide aside from having recognition from a parliament? Less taxes?
Also, wouldn't it be enough if the parliament recognizes it as a legal asset or commodity (like gold, silver, etc.)?

molecular

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Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on December 10, 2013, 06:36:36 PM

Good news from one of the last bastions for monetary freedom and rational govt.

Go Switzerland!

There's also some gov't proposal in cyprus to endorse Bitcoin (have it traded on the cypriot stock exchange, even). See interview with cfo of a crypriot university (endorsing Bitcoin, taking BTC as payment for education) on Max Keiser: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZDmpiSdTTk#t=693

Yay! competition!

marcus_of_augustus

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Eadem mutata resurgo

Good news from one of the last bastions for monetary freedom and rational govt.

Go Switzerland!

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: Hermel on December 10, 2013, 08:00:46 AM

Also, if your country of origin is outside the EU, it might not be easy to get a residence permit in Switzerland.

Hmm.. that is bad for non-Swiss bitcoin enthusiasts. But still I am happy for my Swiss brothers.

Hermel

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Quote from: Spekulatius on December 10, 2013, 09:01:39 AM

Just letting everybody know that we will meet Mr. Schwaab tomorrow for an interview, if you have any questions for him, let us know!

Nice to see bitcointhedocumentary.org reporting about this.

I actually spoke to him two weeks ago. If you want to get in touch with parldigi (the authors of the new postulate), let me know.

Spekulatius

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Just letting everybody know that we will meet Mr. Schwaab tomorrow for an interview, if you have any questions for him, let us know!
Link: http://www.parlament.ch/d/suche/seiten/geschaefte.aspx?gesch_id=20133687
Link: https://bitcointhedocumentary.org/wordpress/?p=696

Hermel

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Quote from: stereotype on December 10, 2013, 08:56:35 AM

I used to understand inter-Europe residency, for tax purposes, was defined as 6months+1day, permanently in the country you wanted to declare in. Thats probably been updated recently though.

Note that Switzerland is outside the European Union (actually, geographically it is inside - but rather surrounded than part of it

) - so different rules apply here.

stereotype

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Quote from: Hermel on December 10, 2013, 08:00:46 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on December 10, 2013, 06:07:38 AM

Is it possible for non-citizens to temporarily reside in Switzerland and sell their Bitcoins for CHF?

In theory, yes. Unless you are from the US or Eritrea. These are the only two countries that tax their citizens regardless of where they live.

If there a double-taxation agreement in place with your country and Switzerland, taxes are usually calculated pro rata. I.e. if you move to Switzerland on July 1st, you have to pay 50% taxes in Switzerland and 50% taxes in your previous country - regardless of whether you realize your capital gains before or after July 1st. Thus, if you want to realize are your gains in Switzerland, you would have to live here from January 1st until December 31st of the relevant year. Also, if your country of origin is outside the EU, it might not be easy to get a residence permit in Switzerland.

I used to understand inter-Europe residency, for tax purposes, was defined as 6months+1day, permanently in the country you wanted to declare in. Thats probably been updated recently though.

Hermel

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on December 10, 2013, 06:07:38 AM

Is it possible for non-citizens to temporarily reside in Switzerland and sell their Bitcoins for CHF?

In theory, yes. Unless you are from the US or Eritrea. These are the only two countries that tax their citizens regardless of where they live.

If there a double-taxation agreement in place with your country and Switzerland, taxes are usually calculated pro rata. I.e. if you move to Switzerland on July 1st, you have to pay 50% taxes in Switzerland and 50% taxes in your previous country - regardless of whether you realize your capital gains before or after July 1st. Thus, if you want to realize are your gains in Switzerland, you would have to live here from January 1st until December 31st of the relevant year. Also, if your country of origin is outside the EU, it might not be easy to get a residence permit in Switzerland.

lclc

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Bitcoin Association Switzerland

Quote

How much is the wealth tax in Switzerland?

Depends on the village & Kanton you live (there is no wealth tax for the government/ the state), but AFAIK generally very low.
In the village I live it's 1'600 CHF for 1 Million Swiss Francs.
You can calculate it here for Kt. Schwyz (guess this is available for other Kantons too): http://www.sz.ch/xml_1/internet/de/application/d5/d939/d24240/d734/d24055/p2436.cfm

Quote

Is it possible for non-citizens to temporarily reside in Switzerland and sell their Bitcoins for CHF?

You wouldn't have to pay taxes in Switzerland for that, but that would probably depend on the country you live in now. I think it might be possible to avoid taxe this way, but better ask a tax consultant Wink

bryant.coleman

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Quote from: SimonBelmond on December 10, 2013, 02:08:50 AM

No capital gain taxes for private persons as long as you are not living of trading, basically. So the ordinary citisen will only pay welth tax (not much), no capital gain tax. However, you can not deduct losses from your income either.

How much is the wealth tax in Switzerland?

Is it possible for non-citizens to temporarily reside in Switzerland and sell their Bitcoins for CHF?

stereotype

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Quote from: SimonBelmond on December 10, 2013, 02:08:50 AM

Quote from: molecular on December 09, 2013, 05:22:23 PM

Quote

Damit liesse sich Bitcoin im Kontext des GWG, KAG, MWSTG und anderer Gesetze einordnen und es würde Rechtssicherheit hergestellt.

Excuse my ignorance: how are capital gains of foreign currency holdings taxed?

No capital gain taxes for private persons as long as you are not living of trading, basically. So the ordinary citisen will only pay welth tax (not much), no capital gain tax. However, you can not deduct losses from your income either.

This is true for UK, in that, it has the same parallel if you were spread-betting.....if you can show a legitimately consistent income from elsewhere, any gains from trading spread-betting derivatives can legally be exempt. It even says so on the websites (4th/5th lines up from bottom of page)......

http://www.cityindex.co.uk/offers-spread-betting/?cid=0000225704&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=spread%20betting&ef_id=UqRG9gAAAUTp@NHj:20131210095504:s

"......and depend on individual circumstances." is a reference to your own EXISTING taxable income, with an understanding that that existing income cannot be derived from trading activities.

And yes, some dodgy City Boys have been pushing the boundaries on this, for years!!

mladen00

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K-ing®

great news,

now waiting for other...

molecular

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Quote from: SimonBelmond on December 10, 2013, 02:08:50 AM

Quote from: molecular on December 09, 2013, 05:22:23 PM

Quote

Damit liesse sich Bitcoin im Kontext des GWG, KAG, MWSTG und anderer Gesetze einordnen und es würde Rechtssicherheit hergestellt.

Excuse my ignorance: how are capital gains of foreign currency holdings taxed?

No capital gain taxes for private persons as long as you are not living of trading, basically. So the ordinary citisen will only pay welth tax (not much), no capital gain tax. However, you can not deduct losses from your income either.

I see, thanks for the info. It's quite adequate to tax Bitcoin gains like that, imo.

molecular

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on December 09, 2013, 09:55:19 PM

Quote from: Dâniel Fraga on December 09, 2013, 02:02:00 PM

I don't mind what politicians think about bitcoin, as they can't control it. Anyway I remember the following news from Switzerland:

Swiss banks ditch secrecy
http://rt.com/business/game-changer-swiss-banking-secrecy-254/

So it's an interesting opportunity to whoever deposited money in Swiss bank accounts to migrate to bitcoin and be free from government control Wink

Well.. I have a feeling that this measure was the stimulant behind the Bitcoin postulate.

If the Swiss banks ditch secrecy, their business will get (severely) affected. So ~~probably in order to neutralize the possible repercussions in the Swiss financial sector~~ because they bought bitcoins, the parliamentarians are proposing to make Switzerland the world leader in Bitcoin marketing.

ftfy

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