Topic: Take refuge in bitSILVER - page 2. (Read 4957 times)
The yield currently is 3.7%; it was 5% at some point. So not only it is easier to get and less risky than any centralized system, it also earns bonus.
The only trouble I see is deciding whether BitSilver or BitShares is going to rise faster in that scenario. I'll probably hold both, knowing I can change my mind every 10 seconds for pennies.
Ah I'd missed that as an advantage over physical, bitSILVER being a crypto is very practically instantly and freely exchangeable.
I suppose there must be paperwork for big silver trading transactions. Avoiding that's another advantage of bitSILVER.
Yep, it's silver in the form of a cryptocurrency so it comes with all the benefits of the ecosystem.
The only trouble I see is deciding whether BitSilver or BitShares is going to rise faster in that scenario. I'll probably hold both, knowing I can change my mind every 10 seconds for pennies.
Ah I'd missed that as an advantage over physical, bitSILVER being a crypto is very practically instantly and freely exchangeable.
I suppose there must be paperwork for big silver trading transactions. Avoiding that's another advantage of bitSILVER.
The only trouble I see is deciding whether BitSilver or BitShares is going to rise faster in that scenario. I'll probably hold both, knowing I can change my mind every 10 seconds for pennies.
Ah I'd missed that as an advantage over physical, bitSILVER being a crypto is very practically instantly and freely exchangeable.
The question that intrigues me is how am I going to play it on The Day the Dollar Dies?
Owning physical silver is really best mostly for this scenario, because until then the artificial supply of paper silver is going to overwhelm the demand for physical.
This black swan could hold off for decades and then happen overnight.
When it does, paper silver will drop in value and physical will climb - but you won't be able to get any by then.
Even if you have physical, can you unload it fast enough at the blow-off top (the day a One World Fiat Currency is announced and made mandatory legal tender, or some other fiat discontinuity?) Who will you trust shipping your physical for sale during that chaos? And what fiat will you want in return?
I like the ability to hop back and forth between crypto destinations in the flight to safety: BitSilver and other cryptos, especially BTS and BitBTC. I can hop between them in ten seconds on the BitShares Decentralized Exchange - assuming I'm smart enough to know when to hop.
The only trouble I see is deciding whether BitSilver or BitShares is going to rise faster in that scenario. I'll probably hold both, knowing I can change my mind every 10 seconds for pennies.
Owning physical silver is really best mostly for this scenario, because until then the artificial supply of paper silver is going to overwhelm the demand for physical.
This black swan could hold off for decades and then happen overnight.
When it does, paper silver will drop in value and physical will climb - but you won't be able to get any by then.
Even if you have physical, can you unload it fast enough at the blow-off top (the day a One World Fiat Currency is announced and made mandatory legal tender, or some other fiat discontinuity?) Who will you trust shipping your physical for sale during that chaos? And what fiat will you want in return?
I like the ability to hop back and forth between crypto destinations in the flight to safety: BitSilver and other cryptos, especially BTS and BitBTC. I can hop between them in ten seconds on the BitShares Decentralized Exchange - assuming I'm smart enough to know when to hop.
And I won't need any traumatized centralized exchange on a bank holiday to do it for me.
The only trouble I see is deciding whether BitSilver or BitShares is going to rise faster in that scenario. I'll probably hold both, knowing I can change my mind every 10 seconds for pennies.
Not slating BTSX' interesting ideas- Both systems are taking different approaches. Some people want decentralized derivatives, some people want tangibility- proof-of-physical existence. There are pro's and con's and potential risks with both..both systems are an evolution from what we already have.
Agreed.
It's just BTS btw, it lost the "X" a few months back.
Your service is really no different than going through a goldmoney or Bullionvault. Except the property records are stored on the blockchain instead.
Telling me how secure the vault is, is like telling me how secure a bank is. In crisis banks will collapse so you're better off storing value on a blockchain and in crisis gold confiscation is highly likely and vaults will be the first to be targeted. Not that you shouldn't have some PM's in vaults in safe jurisdictions around the world but I want a decentralized option too.
Currently BitGold & Silver track the value of spot. So you'd have to sell for BTS and then use that to buy physical with Bitcoin but the dealer partnerships are in the pipeline, there's also discussion of BitSilverEagle that tracks the value of silver eagles from major coin dealers.
Again the key here is centralised counterparty risk. The selling point of crypto is being able to store value in a decentralised way, BitShares lets you do that, all other options including yours have centralised counterparty risk.
Telling me how secure the vault is, is like telling me how secure a bank is. In crisis banks will collapse so you're better off storing value on a blockchain and in crisis gold confiscation is highly likely and vaults will be the first to be targeted. Not that you shouldn't have some PM's in vaults in safe jurisdictions around the world but I want a decentralized option too.
Currently BitGold & Silver track the value of spot. So you'd have to sell for BTS and then use that to buy physical with Bitcoin but the dealer partnerships are in the pipeline, there's also discussion of BitSilverEagle that tracks the value of silver eagles from major coin dealers.
Again the key here is centralised counterparty risk. The selling point of crypto is being able to store value in a decentralised way, BitShares lets you do that, all other options including yours have centralised counterparty risk.
The property records double as a digital representations of bailment receipts- they are trustlessly (ie without escrow) tradeable p2p in a decentralized way on the blockchain and not tied to specific owners.. No entity can prevent trading of the token on the blockchain and no single party can screw with the ledger. Existing PM dealers would benefit from simply adopting blockchain tech into inventory systems
To quote from an article here: http://prestonbyrne.com/2014/08/24/what-goes-up/
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In the case of a substantial fall in value of BTSX, BitAssets will be under-collateralised and will start trading under par as they (being BTSX derivatives, and not actual assets) will not entitle the holder of the in-the-money side of the trade to obtain sufficient USD on settlement to actually recover the expected dollar equivalent of what they are entitled to under the contract. The collateral pool will, at some point, run out of firepower. Price-fixing through unilateral delegate intervention will result in market failure as mispriced trades will be unable to find a counterparty. Nobody is going to spend $1.00 to buy BitUSD which they will only be able to dispose of for, e.g., $0.25.
Irrespective of supply-side intervention through the “DAC” (printing new BTSX/BitAssets or removing them from circulation), if the market abandons the platform in a “black swan” event (which to date virtually every single cryptocurrency in existence, including arguably Bitcoin, has experienced) depositors, investors, and BitAsset holders alike would, in my view, incur substantial losses. These losses would arise not only from the collapse in the value of the BitAssets themselves as described above but also from the fall in value of the BTSX collateral which is locked up in these transactions, as against a reference unit of value with an independent existence outside of the BTSX ecosystem (USD/Bitcoin/whatever).
No asset rises in price forever, including BTSX. To think otherwise is folly. The relevance of the issue is that BitSharesX does not benefit from protections available to users of deposit-taking banks or other financial institutions, such as guaranteed deposits or claims in insolvency. If BTSX collapses, unless the laws of economics have somehow been suspended, depositor value may evaporate without any recourse being available.
Irrespective of supply-side intervention through the “DAC” (printing new BTSX/BitAssets or removing them from circulation), if the market abandons the platform in a “black swan” event (which to date virtually every single cryptocurrency in existence, including arguably Bitcoin, has experienced) depositors, investors, and BitAsset holders alike would, in my view, incur substantial losses. These losses would arise not only from the collapse in the value of the BitAssets themselves as described above but also from the fall in value of the BTSX collateral which is locked up in these transactions, as against a reference unit of value with an independent existence outside of the BTSX ecosystem (USD/Bitcoin/whatever).
No asset rises in price forever, including BTSX. To think otherwise is folly. The relevance of the issue is that BitSharesX does not benefit from protections available to users of deposit-taking banks or other financial institutions, such as guaranteed deposits or claims in insolvency. If BTSX collapses, unless the laws of economics have somehow been suspended, depositor value may evaporate without any recourse being available.
No I don't think a black swan type fail or gold confiscation is strongly likely in the near term horizon. I wouldn't use either of those are arguments to avoid trading on Bitshares or via DTT, especially with the relative amounts we are talking about right now, but they are possibilities.
Not slating BTSX' interesting ideas- Both systems are taking different approaches. Some people want decentralized derivatives, some people want tangibility- proof-of-physical existence. There are pro's and con's and potential risks with both..both systems are an evolution from what we already have.
This isn't really meeting in the middle. It's just a centralized option. In your system you have a token but if something happens to the centralized counterparty your token is worthless. The major value of decentralised blockchains is holding value in a way that is decentralized or at least hard to target. Also BitReserve and BitGold.com are going to crowd your marketplace soon.
BitGold & BitSilver by BitShares maintain their value regardless of what happens to any centralized dealer and they are currently in the process of creating direct gateways with PM dealers. So soon it will be the best of both worlds - storing Gold & Silver on the blockchain, getting physical whenever you want but not having the counterparty risk of any centralised dealer/vault.
It is meeting in the middle compared to what already exists, there are numerous benefits to an approach like this. At the most simple level it allows a market participant to enter and exit the PM market from crypto quickly without ever owning gold/silver if they don't need but without getting involved with fractional reserves, ETF's etc. At all times the user can take comfort in that what they buy, is what exists. The market cannot freeze trades of these tokens. Each token is backed by 1:1 holdings in a bonded and insured depository. You receive a proof-of-custody crypographically embedded in the blockchain. You can throw out the "if something happens to the vault" but that's quite a stretch
The vault in use right now has:
Quote
$1 Billion in all-risk insurance through Lloyd's of London
Exchange approved depository for CME & ICE
IRS compliant (IRC - 408n) depository for IRA assets
Bullion is fully allocated and held off balance sheet
64,000 square feet of fortified, access controlled facilities
State-of-the-art security systems and Class 3 vaults
Detailed & comprehensive inventory controls & reporting systems
Highly knowledgeable staff – Management alone has
over 200 years of combined experience in precious metals
Canadian Back up vault
Exchange approved depository for CME & ICE
IRS compliant (IRC - 408n) depository for IRA assets
Bullion is fully allocated and held off balance sheet
64,000 square feet of fortified, access controlled facilities
State-of-the-art security systems and Class 3 vaults
Detailed & comprehensive inventory controls & reporting systems
Highly knowledgeable staff – Management alone has
over 200 years of combined experience in precious metals
Canadian Back up vault
There is nothing stopping the service from utilizing many vaults, nor is there anything stopping users from shipping the gold to their own possession.
Imagine buying a gold token representing a one ounce PampSuisse bar in New York and then picking up your physical gold bar at a Bullion dealer on Singapore’s New Bridge Road that same day.
Quote
So soon it will be the best of both worlds - storing Gold & Silver on the blockchain, getting physical whenever you want but not having the counterparty risk of any centralised dealer/vault.
Correct me If I'm wrong, but you cannot actually "own" (ie hold in your hand) bitsilver/ bitgold at this time even if you wanted to. In fact there is no precious metals existing! until that feature exists, it isn't really worth advertising as a selling point
with Unobtanium you can buy physical silver directly from merchant or community people. We have heaps of traders for Uno-silver / Uno-gold aswell as an asset going which is easy to trade and can be converted to silver shippped to your door. In that sense trading Uno for silver is decentral and no fishy business as you can get it delivered any time. In our case it's low risk and convient. I do have to admit i don't understand how bitsilver should work and suspect there is no real physical silver underlying which i can get shipped to my house, or is it?
Because when i buy 'virtual silver' or 'silverpromises' i need the option to get it shipped. Can i get bitsilver shipped to my home in form of physical bullion? Is BItsilver redeemable for physical? How is the conversionrate? How long does shipping take? Costs for shipping?
How much do you have in the vaults? What happens when silverprices suddenly go through the roof (silverbubble)? Are you selling tokens that aren't backed? Fractional reserve? Are you audited? By whom?
You can see BTS backing the bitSILVER has fiat + BTC buyers, and the bitSILVER is backed by over double its own value in BTS.
so you are backing a silverasset with crypto? Both is very volatile. What happens if you get margincalled? BTS could drop and silver rise in the same time. Let's say next week BTS drops 35% and silver rises 170% - in that situation you are short. What's happening then? Who pays?
So you hold no physical silver to protect you from volatility? Remind you: silver can be extremely volatile too at times. Looks pretty risky to me in case there is no physical silver underlying.
Because when i buy 'virtual silver' or 'silverpromises' i need the option to get it shipped. Can i get bitsilver shipped to my home in form of physical bullion? Is BItsilver redeemable for physical? How is the conversionrate? How long does shipping take? Costs for shipping?
How much do you have in the vaults? What happens when silverprices suddenly go through the roof (silverbubble)? Are you selling tokens that aren't backed? Fractional reserve? Are you audited? By whom?
You can see BTS backing the bitSILVER has fiat + BTC buyers, and the bitSILVER is backed by over double its own value in BTS.
so you are backing a silverasset with crypto? Both is very volatile. What happens if you get margincalled? BTS could drop and silver rise in the same time. Let's say next week BTS drops 35% and silver rises 170% - in that situation you are short. What's happening then? Who pays?
So you hold no physical silver to protect you from volatility? Remind you: silver can be extremely volatile too at times. Looks pretty risky to me in case there is no physical silver underlying.
Good question. Bitshares DEX (Decentralized Exchange) will automatically margin call when the collateral backing the short margin order falls below 150% (200% in an upcoming update). This means the margin position will be forced to buy bitSILVER off the market to cover. A black swan event could hypothetically cause the asset to become undercollateralized, but this requires extreme volatility on a very short time span (over an hour instead of a week).
Also, there is no parity with silver bullion *yet*. But that is because this system is new, in beta, and entrepreneurs looking to make that spread haven't sprung up yet. Check out this article by Dan about how you can use bitMetals to bypass fiat regulations that for instance caused e-gold to be shut down.
with Unobtanium you can buy physical silver directly from merchant or community people. We have heaps of traders for Uno-silver / Uno-gold aswell as an asset going which is easy to trade and can be converted to silver shippped to your door. In that sense trading Uno for silver is decentral and no fishy business as you can get it delivered any time. In our case it's low risk and convient. I do have to admit i don't understand how bitsilver should work and suspect there is no real physical silver underlying which i can get shipped to my house, or is it?
Because when i buy 'virtual silver' or 'silverpromises' i need the option to get it shipped. Can i get bitsilver shipped to my home in form of physical bullion? Is BItsilver redeemable for physical? How is the conversionrate? How long does shipping take? Costs for shipping?
How much do you have in the vaults? What happens when silverprices suddenly go through the roof (silverbubble)? Are you selling tokens that aren't backed? Fractional reserve? Are you audited? By whom?
You can see BTS backing the bitSILVER has fiat + BTC buyers, and the bitSILVER is backed by over double its own value in BTS.
so you are backing a silverasset with crypto? Both is very volatile. What happens if you get margincalled? BTS could drop and silver rise in the same time. Let's say next week BTS drops 35% and silver rises 170% - in that situation you are short. What's happening then? Who pays?
So you hold no physical silver to protect you from volatility? Remind you: silver can be extremely volatile too at times. Looks pretty risky to me in case there is no physical silver underlying.
Because when i buy 'virtual silver' or 'silverpromises' i need the option to get it shipped. Can i get bitsilver shipped to my home in form of physical bullion? Is BItsilver redeemable for physical? How is the conversionrate? How long does shipping take? Costs for shipping?
How much do you have in the vaults? What happens when silverprices suddenly go through the roof (silverbubble)? Are you selling tokens that aren't backed? Fractional reserve? Are you audited? By whom?
You can see BTS backing the bitSILVER has fiat + BTC buyers, and the bitSILVER is backed by over double its own value in BTS.
so you are backing a silverasset with crypto? Both is very volatile. What happens if you get margincalled? BTS could drop and silver rise in the same time. Let's say next week BTS drops 35% and silver rises 170% - in that situation you are short. What's happening then? Who pays?
So you hold no physical silver to protect you from volatility? Remind you: silver can be extremely volatile too at times. Looks pretty risky to me in case there is no physical silver underlying.
bitSILVER buying has started to increase since posting. View the bitassets here (bitSILVER is the 6th one down):
http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market
Interesting post @Anotheranonlol. With bitSILVER running on BitShares do also get proof your bitSILVER is backed by its equivalent value, in fact it is currently backed by 276% collateral, even more backing than the service you mentioned. The collateral backing rates can be viewed at the above link. This collateral backing the bitSILVER is BTS aka bitshares. There are fiat and bitcoins queued up in buy orders on exchanges to buy BTS.
For example:
http://btc38.com/trade_en.html?mk_type=btc&btc38_trade_coin_name=bts
http://btc38.com/trade_en.html?btc38_trade_coin_name=bts
https://bter.com/trade/btsx_btc
You can see BTS backing the bitSILVER has fiat + BTC buyers, and the bitSILVER is backed by over double its own value in BTS.
bitSILVER's yield is also up at 3.88%. It's an excellent form of silver investment.
Whether silver is a good buy or not is another question entirely. It could be given the huge downtrend and financial trouble in Europe.
http://www.bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market
Interesting post @Anotheranonlol. With bitSILVER running on BitShares do also get proof your bitSILVER is backed by its equivalent value, in fact it is currently backed by 276% collateral, even more backing than the service you mentioned. The collateral backing rates can be viewed at the above link. This collateral backing the bitSILVER is BTS aka bitshares. There are fiat and bitcoins queued up in buy orders on exchanges to buy BTS.
For example:
http://btc38.com/trade_en.html?mk_type=btc&btc38_trade_coin_name=bts
http://btc38.com/trade_en.html?btc38_trade_coin_name=bts
https://bter.com/trade/btsx_btc
You can see BTS backing the bitSILVER has fiat + BTC buyers, and the bitSILVER is backed by over double its own value in BTS.
bitSILVER's yield is also up at 3.88%. It's an excellent form of silver investment.
Whether silver is a good buy or not is another question entirely. It could be given the huge downtrend and financial trouble in Europe.
For reference: Platinum & Palladium historical charts
Why not in real silver or gold? OK, it's bulky and heavy but I can play Scrooge McDuck with it if I want 
.
.The real metal definitely has it's own appeal. Still, it's nice to have a convenient digital version easily obtainable with BTC.
Why not meet in the middle?
you can also directly purchase Gold/Silver/Plat/Palladium with Bitcoins (or fiat) and have them stored on the blockchain. No need to move to an alternative ledger. Or no need to ever physically touch anything, unlesss you want to. With Bitsilver there is nothing to touch even if you wanted to.
There's a service called digitaltangible trust, built on Bitcoin & CounterParty who works with existing crypto friendly commodity dealers in conjuction with established depositories.
Here you can view some of the precious metals stored on the blockchain today: (1500 BTC+) https://digitaltangibletrust.com/leaderboard/
You do get proof your token represents the appropriate backing of physical holdings in custody. You are able to trade the metals on a p2p decentralized exchange (running on top of bitcoin) via the sites own marketplace (kind of like amazon, where lower price items from alternate sellers will be shown to a prospecting buyer), via participating exchanges, or directly sell back to the site any metals you already happen to own.
You are able to seek delivery of your PM's at any time (and I believe soon you may be able to pickup from partnering dealers in person) They also work with buttercoin for fast USD funding enabling a trader to move from Fiat -> crypto -> PM and back in 24 hours.
For larger orders the price is 0.67% over spot, below what you'd expect from liquidating crypto to fiat.
The process works as below:
Here you can find BTC/oz charts: https://digitaltangibletrust.com/market-data/
Are you suggesting people should get in silver crash to escape from BTC crash?
lol
lol
lol, silver might have finished crashing, it might be at the bottom, it's speculation. Not many people know about bitSILVER.
Why not in real silver or gold? OK, it's bulky and heavy but I can play Scrooge McDuck with it if I want .
.I invest in both silver and gold coins and in bitSILVER and bitGOLD. Both the physical and the crypto assets have properties that make them valuable to my portfolio.
Are you suggesting people should get in silver crash to escape from BTC crash?
lol
lol
Why not in real silver or gold? OK, it's bulky and heavy but I can play Scrooge McDuck with it if I want .
.I admit swimming in gold coins has an appeal of its own, but I am willing to trade it for convenience, ease and yield.
http://bitsharesblocks.com/assets/asset?id=SILVER
There's literally no one selling/shorting bitSILVER at the moment. It's not possible to take refuge in...
USD and CNY look a bit better:
http://bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market
There's literally no one selling/shorting bitSILVER at the moment. It's not possible to take refuge in...
USD and CNY look a bit better:
http://bitsharesblocks.com/assets/market
Demand for the BitAssets have increased as its a good place to take refuge in.
BitUSD and BitCNY are perfect to stay into till the storm blows over.
Why not in real silver or gold? OK, it's bulky and heavy but I can play Scrooge McDuck with it if I want .
.The real metal definitely has it's own appeal. Still, it's nice to have a convenient digital version easily obtainable with BTC.
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