Topic: Tarnished image - page 4. (Read 5369 times)

I guess that's why we all use gold to buy our gas and groceries. I have to admit this is a very good analogy like NedKLee said however gold does not need a miner to process transactions. However gold is called a barbaric relic now by the central authorities now. Will bitcoin be a barbaric relic or worse a fad that weened away to another system that has been created with a central system just like bitcoin would be soon?

You can get 5GH for only $350, so ASICs aren't only for a handful of people.

Conspiring? No I don't think that at all. I just would not support bitcoin if it was centralized with a few mining farms. You make it sound like mining is not a very important part of bitcoin. I'm just saying that it will come to a point where the effort in keeping miners will be a concern and by then it will be too late. The trends of bitcoin losing smaller miners is not something that should be taken lightly. After all it was a big issue at its conception.

I know it seems petty now and not very important but this is just the begining of Bitcoin's start with Asics. Difficulty has jumped higher and quicker than it has ever. To all those that are saying just send you coins if your leaving. You may get your wish as many more people leave they will leave all their coins for you.

If no one uses the coins then what value will it have. Have you seen bitcoins price? It can't get any higher than 100 lately, and it won't until asics find it difficult to mine enough to hord them. They won't if the price keeps falling or stays put. After all they have to pay for the miner. You know that dam ROI.

Just a heads up when people can't win at a game they tend to leave. If they feel they have not had a fair shot they refuse to use it.

I really like your analogy, here in Central South Australia there are lots of isolated, heavily guarded, gold mines, where mining companies have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to extract Gold and Silver Copper and other minerals, I liken them to the ASIC miners for BTC., (btw, they provide lots of employent in the meantime, plus royalty cheques for the local landowners) every one benefits, including the economy.

Meantime there's old mate in Central Victoria, who makes a very nice living panning for Gold, and has done so for years, problem is, he's the only one that benefits, not even his family as he's a single bloke, I liken him to a GPU miner.

To my mind the ASIC miners are an integral part of BTC, without them BTC will founder and if you follow the block chain to its logical conclusion, eventually, (not in my lifetime) the only return the miners will get is the transaction fees.

Sure the big miners make huge profits, but in the meantime everyone benefits, no doubt several people will tell me this is not a good thing, but then I'm not an economist, but ever the optimist.

anybody who is quiting bitcoin, feel free to send me you unwanted coins and fragments. account in sig.

Every node verifies every transaction. Mining just establishes the order in which transactions are processed. Not that I think this hyperbolic scenario is likely, but even a single dominant miner could handle the exact same transaction volume as a thousand miners. Pool operators pretty much do this already.

What's so hard about buying a single USB miner stick secondhand? Do you think mining hardware speculators are all conspiring to charge more, or do you think the price will reflect the risk/time/effort involved in buying wholesale from a manufacturer?

Let's use an analogy to see clearly what's going on.

Imagine a large gold vein is discovered in a nearby mountainside.  At first the gold is so plentiful that anyone can get in with nothing more than a pie pan and pan for gold (CPU mining for BTC), and make a profit doing so.  People see these other people mining the cheap and easy gold and jump in, but the cheap and easy gold starts to go away, and mining becomes more difficult.  Mining with a cheap pie pan isn't worth it anymore, so some people quit, while others buy more expensive equipment, say a sluice or dredge and get to work obtaining the more-difficult-to-mine gold (GPU mining for BTC).  As more and more gold is mined, eventually even this equipment doesn't get you much, and now folks either have to buy more expensive equipment to mine the gold, or quit.  Some people invest in large scale mining plants to get the difficult-to-mine gold (ASIC mining for BTC), while those with pie pans complain that it's too hostile for new miners to make any profit.  They have no right to complain, the time of easy pickings is gone.  Does this mean that gold will cease being a valuable currency?  No, it just means you either have to invest real money into machines that can mine profitably, or don't mine at all and just buy BTC outright.

I agree its a competition. I was told we were decentralized but this is turning out to not be the case. This trend will hurt in the long run. There is nothing that can be done. I know that I also know that in the end it will not be a surprise to see large players in charge of transaction processing(fewer players as well). Is this acceptable to you?

  So you expect me to believe that people will just mine these coins for free? Last time I checked mining was an integral part of Bitcoin and with out enough miners you can't even service all the transactions passed to buyer to seller. I'm may be new to mining as I have only been doing this for about 3-4 months however I understand many aspects of crypto currencies. I understand how they work.

I am seeing a disturbing trend of hostility towards miners. It was open to anyone who could put a computer together however now asics are very narrow and unavailable to all. Only to people who are willing to put down large payloads of money. This is also in the light of possibly losing money through a difficulty increase that is jumping at a rate that will be a surprise to many. This is not a healthy tred imo.

Now lets say this continues for while and everyone begins to look at their expense report after a year only to realize that the money is not in mining. What happens to bitcoin and litecoin?

I have stopped mining for over a week now. How long you think my wallet will take to be removed?  How many other people will move on if they can't have some of the pie? Do you see my point now? Less miners less pools less people using wallets less decentralization.

You're right, the state of mining is rather sad right now.  But it is a competitive industry, by design.  No one is guaranteed a profit.  And there's not really even much reason for hardware manufacturers to sell their designs to you.  So, if you can do better, do it.  Otherwise, what do you want us to do?  The point of Bitcoin isn't to attract newcomers.  It's to have a free economy.  This is what it looks like.  It's not always perfect, but it's getting better.

The way I see it paranoia will be the destruction of Bitcoins. Everyone has NO TRUST in ANYONE.

If we go with your "new country issuing its own currency," we wind up in this ridiculous place:
Imagine a new country is born, with no industry, no possessions, and ... no land, and starts issuing its own currency -- BTC.  When other countries, in an understandable state of wtf, ask wtf, the new country tells everyone else to start (your list of suggestions to the OP).  
Please understand that currency, to be accepted, needs *something* to back it -- cows, land, threat, *something*.  You're putting the cart before the horse -- first currency, *then stuff*.

Oh, another one that goes away after realising he will not get rich in 2 weeks, but not before posting to the forums how disappointed he is with this whole bitcoin thing.
Godspeed!

If you don't want to mine, just buy a few bitcoins and operate a bitcoind node.

This forum is not Bitcoin.

Nor, if it's ever going to be generally accepted money, is mining Bitcoin.  Mining remains a considerably high risk activity that many will not engage in.

I don't mean to be hostile, as that would be essentially proving your point, but the one thing I see over and over again regarding "investment opportunities" and purchasing mining rigs is a cost-effectivity analysis regarding power usage, cost of hardware, and projected difficulty.

While all of that is true, the issue is the barrier of entry to purchasing bitcoins directly, legally and safely.


There is only incentive for those who are mining to not encourage others to mine. Bottomline.


The often omitted fact is that you could essentially project bitcoins to multiply in value over the next few years. Remember the bubble projections of $1,000+ by January 2014? How about by January 2020?

At that point, sure, mining is still less efficient than purchasing outright. But it is far more self-sufficient and doesn't have the tons and tons of issues people of all "skill level" have encountered. Yes, you're converting electricity bills and equipment into BTC, partially, but the point is the BTC have the potential to multiply in value.

Some folks like the idea of mining versus the risk/issues involved with purchasing outright.


And to qualify your statements further: sure, bitcoin mining is hostile to newcomers. So is gold mining. So is inventing MooCdollars.

But bitcoin itself? The main hostility here is that "most people" are currently resigned to accepting fiat, centralized cash, zero privacy for consumer protection and whatever fees these tools we need declare fair.

Bitcoin as an internet bartering system where you are using digital tokens when providing services or goods is fine. But the folks who are currently using bartering systems (that haven't been shut down as illegal) are not necessarily computer savvy, they're more hippie-ish and communist. And then the vast majority of people need that exchange between fiat and btc in order to make use out of btc.

since, again, most people in the world don't offer "goods" or "services" outside of where they work, that isn't exactly an inviting loop, because money always involves other people. You're telling PERSON A to invest in a system that requires PERSONS B-ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ to recognize its value. That is where the hostility comes into play.


FUD against bitcoin, perceived hostility against bitcoin, and the few places on the web where there is consistent information about bitcoin mostly being flat out garbage, are a counterforce to the steady adoption rate. Add in the clear incentive to keep anyone adopting it out of the picture as long as possible for those using bitcoin strictly as an investment/profiteering instrument and of course it seems hostile.


If you, however, consider bitcoin to be the asking of the question "What if bitcoin...?" then here we are. Any assertion as to what it is supposed to be or do is fair game, and there are forces that have more authority or influence over that than say, you or I might have. In the end perhaps where it ends up and why it ended up there will be transparent and "known to all."

But, I mean, crypto... so, you know, "they" will be sure to spin the eventualities to "their" profit. Seeing as how excruciatingly near 100% those engaging with bitcoin, watching it, whatever have 0 idea of its true origins and steering, and any answer as to what it was would always be doubtable... in short, no, we can't know these things. So making assertions about what it is are equally fantastic, because any individual might have a unique experience based on so many factors... the "general experience" is irrelevant.

Keep in mind that it might just be a bubble - people might be expecting a high ROI on their mining gear that will never materialize, so they buy on credit. The guys "selling shovels" might be the ones getting rich today. During this time of year mining will be more profitable in the southern hemisphere, and even poor Australians have enough credit to buy an ASIC rig.

If you feel like the numbers aren't adding up, you could be right. The price will never be perfect, but by saying "enough" you're contributing useful information that will prevent it from becoming that much higher. If you could ALWAYS make a profit by mining, something would be wrong.

this. Why everybody wants to invest in mining. Sure its great because you set up your miner like fire and forget rocket and just count your bitcoins. But people really need to offer more services for bitcoin than just mine. Most people would earn more if they sell stuff for bitcoin or just buy bitcoins instead of mining rigs.

Nothing guarantees the value of the coins that you mine so mining has never been an investment, it's always been a gamble.

Get over yourself thinking that you've missed out on something. As a newcomer to Bitcoin (or any of the other alt coins) you face the exact same risks as all the newcomers who came before you.

you seem to have a one track mind revolving around mining.

bitcoin is a whole economy, imagine it like a new country being born with its own currency. there are training opportunities, retail opportunities, manufacturing, freelance opportunities, etc etc. the bitcoin world is your oyster. if you can't afford a mining rig then set up a shop selling groceries, clothing, DIY products, rent out apartment complexes, offer many other services like electrician, cable TV installers, plumbers.

bitcoin is not just about mining