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Topic: [TECHNICAL] Personal Summary on HD-wallet's Master Seed Generation: (Read 257 times)

legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!
I don't care about "Merit", what am I supposed to do with that?

If you're unsure about the use of the document, then I'm unsure about the use of "Development & Technical Discussion".

It's the last time that I've posted here, if people like the ones I've encountered here are the first "Bitcoiners" people get to talk to, then it's no wonder nobody likes us.

TL;DR: Keep your worthless merit.

It was meant as encouragement, not to offend you.
And about the usefulness... I am unsure because I find the one from  learnmeabitcoin.com more catchy at least and with better chances to be read by the ones interested.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13

I'm not so sure about the usefulness of this document, still, I've gave you some merit for the effort.
At least it's part of (your) learning curve.
[/quote]

I don't care about "Merit", what am I supposed to do with that?

If you're unsure about the use of the document, then I'm unsure about the use of "Development & Technical Discussion".

It's the last time that I've posted here, if people like the ones I've encountered here are the first "Bitcoiners" people get to talk to, then it's no wonder nobody likes us.

TL;DR: Keep your worthless merit.
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!

You can always try xkcd  Cheesy





I've shared the link to the document here

I'm not so sure about the usefulness of this document, still, I've gave you some merit for the effort.
At least it's part of (your) learning curve.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
You're making me feel bad about being so harsh to you, but you made me say it.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 1298



I will never not like Dilbert.  Cheesy Also why is he changing color from brown to red?

Because of the mental strain. For him to generate randomness like "nine, nine, nine ...." is truly nothing to sneeze at. Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

Stay away, petty little trashcan.

keep working hard on that paper and maybe put it on a website oneday once you get it tidied up and spiffy looking.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
What you're describing, however, is the derivation of the master extended private key, which is derived indeed derived by passing the master seed + "Bitcoin Seed" string through the HMAC-SHA512.
I think he's talking about BIP32's master key derivation from the entropy, he might have misunderstood the document.
Link: github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#master-key-generation
(one reason to be specific with the title)

It took me some time to figure out earlier that this covers only entropy generation, but not things inside BIP32 - which use the output of such entropy generation processes.

In addition, Electrum have it's own standard called "Electrum Seed Version System".

But this is the layer that's directly above BIP32 and you could say it's on the same layer as BIP39 but below the entropy gathering stuff.



I will never not like Dilbert.  Cheesy Also why is he changing color from brown to red?
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
Alright then, maybe point out what's wrong?

It's beyond me how someone capable enough to dissect the above document, can be too incompetent to write a simple and useful reply in one go; instead, one has to hold his hand and guide him towards generating a somewhat useful reply.

Stay away, petty little trashcan.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
You're not helpful, man. I want to know if the above ~8 min read is correct or not; if you can't bring up the energy to have a read-through of the summary and report back to me, you might as well stay away altogether.

You could've responded with something helpful, but no, some links here and some rambling there, stay away.

Edit: 🤣, I had a look over it, and it's essentially a simplified version of the above... How will that help?


it would help about as much as trying to make a meaningful summary of bip32 in a single paragraph...

https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/keys/hd-wallets/

your sections 1 through 3 are detailed. your section 4 is not detailed at all.

one of your graphics in the file is wrong (or confusing/misleading?). but since this document is just for your own personal use, i guess it really doesn't matter that much.







newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
The summary needs the definition of "entropy".

There are a few of them i.e. physical entropy, Shannon entropy, entropy relevant to domain of  "Master Seed Generation" etc..

I would prefer to see that OP  understand the difference and provide the explicit meaning of entropy he used when  summarizing his knowledge.


As far as I could find, the entropy simply refers to "randomness", with the former being collected by a CSPRNG that collects randomness from a mixture of external sources (i.e., environmental noise, system events, or user input)...


Those are  just fancy words that don't reveal the essence.

In the domain of "Master Seed Generation" entropy is just a big ( commonly 128/256 bits) binary number.

Ideally it must be random... but, there is always a but.  Its randomness depends on the way  by which it has been generated.  The best way is to digitize physical processes that are believed to be stochastic. For instance, Passport wallet digitizes Avalanche noise for this purpose.


How'd you change that?


It is your summary, not mine

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2024/05/09/r0JWg.png


Fancy words that describe the process. If you're not willing to help, you might as well stay away altogether.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
Nonetheless, I'm curious as to what can be tweaked more, please be precise!
Only the document's title, everything checks out.
BIP39 should be predominantly mentioned, should be something like "BIP39, Generation of Master Seed".
Because not all HD wallets use mnemonic, for example, Bitcoin Core.

In cases where the wallet doesn't follow BIP39 standard; the master seed (seed, hdseed) is usually generated though pRNG, and not from a mnemonic.

What you're describing, however, is the derivation of the master extended private key, which is derived indeed derived by passing the master seed + "Bitcoin Seed" string through the HMAC-SHA512.
I think he's talking about BIP32's master key derivation from the entropy, he might have misunderstood the document.
Link: github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#master-key-generation
(one reason to be specific with the title)

Hm, alright.
legendary
Activity: 2870
Merit: 7490
Crypto Swap Exchange
Nonetheless, I'm curious as to what can be tweaked more, please be precise!
Only the document's title, everything checks out.
BIP39 should be predominantly mentioned, should be something like "BIP39, Generation of Master Seed".
Because not all HD wallets use mnemonic, for example, Bitcoin Core.

In cases where the wallet doesn't follow BIP39 standard; the master seed (seed, hdseed) is usually generated though pRNG, and not from a mnemonic.

In addition, Electrum have it's own standard called "Electrum Seed Version System".
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 1298
The summary needs the definition of "entropy".

There are a few of them i.e. physical entropy, Shannon entropy, entropy relevant to domain of  "Master Seed Generation" etc..

I would prefer to see that OP  understand the difference and provide the explicit meaning of entropy he used when  summarizing his knowledge.


As far as I could find, the entropy simply refers to "randomness", with the former being collected by a CSPRNG that collects randomness from a mixture of external sources (i.e., environmental noise, system events, or user input)...


Those are  just fancy words that don't reveal the essence.

In the domain of "Master Seed Generation" entropy is just a big ( commonly 128/256 bits) binary number.

Ideally it must be random... but, there is always a but.  Its randomness depends on the way  by which it has been generated.  The best way is to digitize physical processes that are believed to be stochastic. For instance, Passport wallet digitizes Avalanche noise for this purpose.


How'd you change that?


It is your summary, not mine


legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 6080
Self-proclaimed Genius
Nonetheless, I'm curious as to what can be tweaked more, please be precise!
Only the document's title, everything checks out.
BIP39 should be predominantly mentioned, should be something like "BIP39, Generation of Master Seed".
Because not all HD wallets use mnemonic, for example, Bitcoin Core.

In cases where the wallet doesn't follow BIP39 standard; the master seed (seed, hdseed) is usually generated though pRNG, and not from a mnemonic.

What you're describing, however, is the derivation of the master extended private key, which is derived indeed derived by passing the master seed + "Bitcoin Seed" string through the HMAC-SHA512.
I think he's talking about BIP32's master key derivation from the entropy, he might have misunderstood the document.
Link: github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#master-key-generation
(one reason to be specific with the title)
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
The summary needs the definition of "entropy".

There are a few of them i.e. physical entropy, Shannon entropy, entropy relevant to domain of  "Master Seed Generation" etc..

I would prefer to see that OP  understand the difference and provide the explicit meaning of entropy he used when  summarizing his knowledge.

Hm, maybe you can help me with that?

As far as I could find, the entropy simply refers to "randomness", with the former being collected by a CSPRNG that collects randomness from a mixture of external sources (i.e., environmental noise, system events, or user input)...

How'd you change that?
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
BIPs are quite hard for normal people to understand, so infographics that basically summarize them are always appreciated.

I see you missed the part involving HMAC-SHA3512. It's not strictly involved in creating the master seed itself but it uses the master seed to create the master private key. I can't check right now, but I recall from memory that the entropy input is passed through that MAC, with "Bitcoin seed" as the data (I believe the case of the characters is like that) and the entropy as the secret key. Then the output is split into two halves being the extended key (i.e. the master key itself) and chain code.

The OP title does say "master seed" so when people talk about that they are usually referring to the entropy as in your document.

Thank you! Yeah, I also share your sentiment on Bips.

What you're describing, however, is the derivation of the master extended private key, which is derived indeed derived by passing the master seed + "Bitcoin Seed" string through the HMAC-SHA512.

I'm working on the derivation part, wherein the above is covered as well.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 1298
The summary needs the definition of "entropy".

There are a few of them i.e. physical entropy, Shannon entropy, entropy relevant to domain of  "Master Seed Generation" etc..

I would prefer to see that OP  understand the difference and provide the explicit meaning of entropy he used when  summarizing his knowledge.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
BIPs are quite hard for normal people to understand, so infographics that basically summarize them are always appreciated.

I see you missed the part involving HMAC-SHA3512. It's not strictly involved in creating the master seed itself but it uses the master seed to create the master private key. I can't check right now, but I recall from memory that the entropy input is passed through that MAC, with "Bitcoin seed" as the data (I believe the case of the characters is like that) and the entropy as the secret key. Then the output is split into two halves being the extended key (i.e. the master key itself) and chain code.

The OP title does say "master seed" so when people talk about that they are usually referring to the entropy as in your document.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 13
You're not helpful, man. I want to know if the above ~8 min read is correct or not; if you can't bring up the energy to have a read-through of the summary and report back to me, you might as well stay away altogether.

You could've responded with something helpful, but no, some links here and some rambling there, stay away.

Edit: 🤣, I had a look over it, and it's essentially a simplified version of the above... How will that help?
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
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