Tesla still an unprofitable automaker - page 2.

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: mindrust on May 18, 2021, 05:14:22 AM

6. Cannot operate under snow.

Are you sure about this point? Because they claim that Tesla is as good as any other car in the snow. I don't own a Tesla myself, or have ever driven one. So I checked the internet. And this is what I found:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/16/the-tesla-model-3-is-tons-of-fun-in-the-snow-with-the-right-tires/

The only catch here is that you need to replace the original tires with those that are suitable in the snow. And the Winter Sottozero 3 tires offered by Tesla costs around $4,000 (which is again overpriced, similar to any other Tesla product).

mindrust

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Quote from: bryant.coleman on May 18, 2021, 05:11:59 AM

Quote from: mindrust on May 18, 2021, 04:34:26 AM

You don't have to get in a lot of accidents to be able to benefit from the low repair costs of a Toyota. Only 1 will suffice. Even if you don't crash your car ever, it is still not a good idea to get a Tesla but people will choose to learn that by the hard way it seems.

I remember I was hyped af when Elon came up with Model3. TV has that kind of effect on people sadly. They can even sell you their shit if they promote it hard enough. (which is Tesla btw)

OK.. let me summarize Tesla for you:

1. At least 2x more expensive when compared to the gasoline run cars with similar specs
2. Limited range, 300-500 km per charge depending on the model
3. Takes up to 10 hours to charge the EV using a wall connector
4. Repairs are more expensive compared to other cars
5. Battery needs to be replaced every 8 years and it costs around $16,000

6. Cannot operate under snow.

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Quote from: mindrust on May 18, 2021, 04:34:26 AM

You don't have to get in a lot of accidents to be able to benefit from the low repair costs of a Toyota. Only 1 will suffice. Even if you don't crash your car ever, it is still not a good idea to get a Tesla but people will choose to learn that by the hard way it seems.

I remember I was hyped af when Elon came up with Model3. TV has that kind of effect on people sadly. They can even sell you their shit if they promote it hard enough. (which is Tesla btw)

OK.. let me summarize Tesla for you:

1. At least 2x more expensive when compared to the gasoline run cars with similar specs
2. Limited range, 300-500 km per charge depending on the model
3. Takes up to 10 hours to charge the EV using a wall connector
4. Repairs are more expensive compared to other cars
5. Battery needs to be replaced every 8 years and it costs around $16,000

mindrust

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Quote from: jaysabi on May 17, 2021, 04:44:18 PM

Not really relevant to an assessment of operating cost since being in an accident isn't routine and part of the normal cost of owning a car. If you get in a lot of accidents, yeah, it's an obvious down side. If you get in a lot of accidents, you're also probably not the type of driver who buys anything other than total garbage cars anyway. Range is only a concern for the vast minority of drivers since the number of drivers who drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day is so small. Operating costs are superior for EVs over gas-powered cars for everyone else.

You don't have to get in a lot of accidents to be able to benefit from the low repair costs of a Toyota. Only 1 will suffice. Even if you don't crash your car ever, it is still not a good idea to get a Tesla but people will choose to learn that by the hard way it seems.

I remember I was hyped af when Elon came up with Model3. TV has that kind of effect on people sadly. They can even sell you their shit if they promote it hard enough. (which is Tesla btw)

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Quote from: jaysabi on May 17, 2021, 04:44:18 PM

Not really relevant to an assessment of operating cost since being in an accident isn't routine and part of the normal cost of owning a car. If you get in a lot of accidents, yeah, it's an obvious down side. If you get in a lot of accidents, you're also probably not the type of driver who buys anything other than total garbage cars anyway. Range is only a concern for the vast minority of drivers since the number of drivers who drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day is so small. Operating costs are superior for EVs over gas-powered cars for everyone else.

Operating costs may be lower for Tesla, but the huge expense for maintenance take away that advantage. If I am not wrong, the battery needs to be replaced every 5 years or so and it costs at least $35,000. On the other hand, a gasoline-driven car doesn't need any major replacements for at least 20 years. And regarding accidents, they can occur anytime. You can't just say that all of the accidents happen due to the carelessness of the owner. And in case that happens, the Tesla owner will be in deep trouble.

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Quote from: mindrust on May 15, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on May 15, 2021, 12:35:16 PM

You're trading off either way. You pay less for the Camry upfront, you pay much more over the life of the car. Tesla's have lower maintenance cost because there are no oil changes and less costs for all the "under the hood" maintenance. And the Camry may have 2x the range on one fueling, but it also has 2x-3x the cost of travel as well based on the fuel source. So you take give and you take.

You are forgetting one thing.

Tesla cars are pretty much irreparable after an accident and even if it was, only the Tesla authorized repair shops are allowed to do so.

Quote from: https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/29419/my-tesla-model-s-p85-accident-is-it-repairable-or-totaled

The thing that Tesla doesn't tell you when buying the vehicle is that it can only be repaired by a Tesla authorized repair shop. Tesla does not sell parts to the public (ie, other non-authorized Tesla repair shops). I did not know this until I was notified by both my insurance and my mechanic.

While you can get your Toyota's maintenance from any third party for cheap.

It is not as practical as a gas-powered car and the range on EV's suck.

Not really relevant to an assessment of operating cost since being in an accident isn't routine and part of the normal cost of owning a car. If you get in a lot of accidents, yeah, it's an obvious down side. If you get in a lot of accidents, you're also probably not the type of driver who buys anything other than total garbage cars anyway. Range is only a concern for the vast minority of drivers since the number of drivers who drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day is so small. Operating costs are superior for EVs over gas-powered cars for everyone else.

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Quote from: wahyu wida on May 17, 2021, 08:37:24 AM

with Tesla's boom in cryptocurrency news, it seems that many people get to know Tesla closer, so this is indirectly Tesla's advantage. besides that, Tesla is trying to find income from bitcoin, while waiting for Tesla's marketing in electric cars to meet the target. I think this is a good step from Tesla to bring the company to life in its early days

I think they were pretty well known anyway, they didn't need this plus Elon was known a bit more probably but around here, my father who has absolutely no idea about crypto still doesn't have a clue about crypto but he still knows who elon is so that means if you are interested in crypto that would mean you heard about elon a lot more these days but if you are unrelated to crypto the only possible way is if you watch SNL, if you are not interested in crypto nor interested in SNL that means elon is just the tesla guy and that's it.

This is why I think it is quite important to realize how we could potentially put elon to a higher standard ourselves as the crypto people right now compared to rest of the world and how we shouldn't do that anymore. I believe he is not even trying to make a profit with bitcoin, he just wanted to get a lot more attention that's it.

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Quote from: TheGreatPython on May 16, 2021, 03:20:06 PM

Quote from: jaysabi on April 27, 2021, 11:40:20 AM

Despite Tesla's first quarter earnings, Tesla is still an unprofitable automobile manufacturer. Digging into the numbers, Tesla reported a $438M GAAP net income, but they had $518M in regulatory credit sales and more than $100M in profit related to bitcoin sales (they sold a total of $272M worth of bitcoin in Q1), which means the primary business of manufacturing cars is still not profitable. Perhaps as they continue to scale this will change, but the valuation still looks insane at these levels, and electric vehicle competition is only going to get stiffer going forward.

You know what scares me? I mean they are already selling a good amount of cars, but one day they will have 100+ places, most of which would be a huge place, some could be middle and some small, but they will eventually have 100+ plants where they will build cars, some of them will be as huge as a town, and they will be capable of building over a million cars, maybe over few million cars per year, all electric all getting buyers very easily. That means it is not going to be like this, it is going to be a situation where you can go to a gallery and buy a car and leave, no waiting, no problems with manufacturing, it is going to be purely like any other car company.

At that point I do not know how much Tesla will worth, even at this point they worth so much, when it goes up that much it will worth even more. It is like when amazon didn't made a profit but worthed a lot, now they profit and they worth even more.

with Tesla's boom in cryptocurrency news, it seems that many people get to know Tesla closer, so this is indirectly Tesla's advantage. besides that, Tesla is trying to find income from bitcoin, while waiting for Tesla's marketing in electric cars to meet the target. I think this is a good step from Tesla to bring the company to life in its early days

TheGreatPython

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Quote from: jaysabi on April 27, 2021, 11:40:20 AM

Despite Tesla's first quarter earnings, Tesla is still an unprofitable automobile manufacturer. Digging into the numbers, Tesla reported a $438M GAAP net income, but they had $518M in regulatory credit sales and more than $100M in profit related to bitcoin sales (they sold a total of $272M worth of bitcoin in Q1), which means the primary business of manufacturing cars is still not profitable. Perhaps as they continue to scale this will change, but the valuation still looks insane at these levels, and electric vehicle competition is only going to get stiffer going forward.

You know what scares me? I mean they are already selling a good amount of cars, but one day they will have 100+ places, most of which would be a huge place, some could be middle and some small, but they will eventually have 100+ plants where they will build cars, some of them will be as huge as a town, and they will be capable of building over a million cars, maybe over few million cars per year, all electric all getting buyers very easily. That means it is not going to be like this, it is going to be a situation where you can go to a gallery and buy a car and leave, no waiting, no problems with manufacturing, it is going to be purely like any other car company.

At that point I do not know how much Tesla will worth, even at this point they worth so much, when it goes up that much it will worth even more. It is like when amazon didn't made a profit but worthed a lot, now they profit and they worth even more.

Vishnu.Reang

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Quote from: Marvelman on May 16, 2021, 04:15:29 AM

There are many different electric cars on the market, and we're not even considering hybrids, which combine a gas engine with an electric motor. What makes the Tesla Model 3 so special?

Most of the other EVs that are available in the market are budget options and not higher end models. Tesla EVs have a range of 400-500 km on a single charge. The same for the other EVs such as Nissan Leaf is around 200 km. That makes the other EVs unsuitable for intercity travel. Anyway, more automobile manufacturers are now coming up with higher end EV models. That should pose some challenge to Tesla in their price section.

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Quote from: mindrust on May 15, 2021, 01:45:33 PM

You are forgetting one thing.

Tesla cars are pretty much irreparable after an accident and even if it was, only the Tesla authorized repair shops are allowed to do so.

Please keep it that way in the US, so we can buy all damaged Teslas, repair them, reprogram them and then use them

Friend of mine is in Tesla programming/coding business for quite a few years now, there are just a few guys around Europe that can do what he does. Very good money in it.

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There are many different electric cars on the market, and we're not even considering hybrids, which combine a gas engine with an electric motor. What makes the Tesla Model 3 so special?

mindrust

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Quote from: Gyfts on May 16, 2021, 12:30:12 AM

Electric cars are the future, Tesla's are not the future.

Agreed with the second part, but not with the first part of your sentence. I think EV's are one of the biggest scams of this decade. They are not practical, they are expensive to repair, low resell value and batteries are not really as green as many people think they are.

EV's manufacturers are just reinventing the wheel because capitalism is about to eat its own tail and they need to make current oil-powered cars obsolete to be able to sell these newly made glorified golf-carts.

I am not planning to get an EV in the next 1000 years.

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Quote from: mindrust on May 09, 2021, 09:30:07 AM

It Costs $900 to Charge a Tesla During Texas’ Snowstorm Electricity Shortage

The increases for electricity costs weren't really something anyone can expect though. Prices increase during scarcity, and during a power outage, it's not something you can control. When gas becomes scarce or the price of oil increases, you end up paying a premium anyways.

Electric cars are the future, Tesla's are not the future.

mindrust

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Quote from: jaysabi on May 15, 2021, 12:35:16 PM

You're trading off either way. You pay less for the Camry upfront, you pay much more over the life of the car. Tesla's have lower maintenance cost because there are no oil changes and less costs for all the "under the hood" maintenance. And the Camry may have 2x the range on one fueling, but it also has 2x-3x the cost of travel as well based on the fuel source. So you take give and you take.

You are forgetting one thing.

Tesla cars are pretty much irreparable after an accident and even if it was, only the Tesla authorized repair shops are allowed to do so.

Quote from: https://forums.tesla.com/discussion/29419/my-tesla-model-s-p85-accident-is-it-repairable-or-totaled

The thing that Tesla doesn't tell you when buying the vehicle is that it can only be repaired by a Tesla authorized repair shop. Tesla does not sell parts to the public (ie, other non-authorized Tesla repair shops). I did not know this until I was notified by both my insurance and my mechanic.

While you can get your Toyota's maintenance from any third party for cheap.

It is not as practical as a gas-powered car and the range on EV's suck.

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Quote from: mindrust on May 09, 2021, 09:30:07 AM

Quote from: bryant.coleman on May 09, 2021, 08:41:35 AM

So $33,690 for an EV, with a range of 424 km? Looks like a very attractive option.

Not really.

Quote

Charging at Superchargers – Charging at a Tesla Supercharger while on the road usually takes anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour, or sometimes a little more depending on the charger and the vehicle.

https://www.autopilotreview.com/how-long-charge-a-tesla/

How long do you need to refuel your gas car? 5 minutes?

Quote

Texas doesn’t receive snow very often, but when it does, it apparently skyrockets the price of electricity.

On Tuesday, Oilprice.com reported that Texas’ current weather disaster, and subsequent electricity shortage, has electric vehicle (EV) charging prices surging, with the cost of charging a Tesla equating to about $900 (USD). The same charge in Texas at any non-emergency time would normally only cost about $18 (USD) using either a Level 1 or Level 2 charger at home.

It Costs $900 to Charge a Tesla During Texas’ Snowstorm Electricity Shortage

On the other hand, you can get a brand new gasoline-only Toyota Camry for $25k.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/174760835403?hash=item28b08eb94b:g:JP4AAOSwl6lglUvv

No bullshit, no batteries, cheap, new, built like a tank.

Impossible to beat a Toyota.

What's the range of a Camry btw? I bet it is at least twice of a Model3.

You're trading off either way. You pay less for the Camry upfront, you pay much more over the life of the car. Tesla's have lower maintenance cost because there are no oil changes and less costs for all the "under the hood" maintenance. And the Camry may have 2x the range on one fueling, but it also has 2x-3x the cost of travel as well based on the fuel source. So you take give and you take.

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Quote from: mindrust on May 01, 2021, 08:35:30 AM

Tesla will be making its money from crypto trading from now on I believe. Buy low, sell high. Works for everybody. :d Why make cars when you can make a lot more money from trading crypto? It doesn't make any sense. I think It is time for Elon to close down TSLA and become a full time crypto-trader. Manufacturing stuff is so last decade. Trading crypto is where it is at now.

That would be the icing on the cake as they already make their money from selling ecology certificates and now on top comes crypto trading, but they seriously hardly sell any cars as opposed to other car makers, they are tiny in reality.

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Quote from: Vishnu.Reang on May 11, 2021, 02:27:46 PM

Quote from: Ultegra134 on May 11, 2021, 11:25:47 AM

It's only the beginning, before Tesla, there were only few electric cars available on the market. Tesla's patents are open source, more and more companies are releasing full EV models, offering decent range, (above 400kms) who can actually compete with Tesla's vehicles (Jaguar I-Pace, Audi E-Tron, Volvo XC40) and many more who are yet to come.

I believe that electric cars have a long way to go, but that technology will be dominant in the future. For instance, Plug-in Hybrids are way cheaper than full EVs, offer great mileage and a decent full electric range.

The other EV brands will take time to capture market share for themselves. It will take many years before they are able to match the level of recognition attained by Tesla. And we still don't know much about the performance of these brands. Companies such as Jaguar and Volvo are pretty new to the EV sector. So if there is some issue with the technology, it is going to be very difficult for these companies to resolve them on time. The patents may be open source, but operational knowledge and experience can't be transferred directly.

Tesla was probably the first one to build well-designed electric vehicles. At the beginning of the EV era, most if not all electric cars looked like crap (see first generation Nissan Leaf), Tesla was the first one to market such a vehicle and quickly gained reputation. Surely, Tesla is the main leader in the EV sector, but I don't think that this will last forever, due to their strict policies, regarding maintenance, repairs, salvage vehicles and so on.

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Quote from: Ultegra134 on May 11, 2021, 11:25:47 AM

It's only the beginning, before Tesla, there were only few electric cars available on the market. Tesla's patents are open source, more and more companies are releasing full EV models, offering decent range, (above 400kms) who can actually compete with Tesla's vehicles (Jaguar I-Pace, Audi E-Tron, Volvo XC40) and many more who are yet to come.

I believe that electric cars have a long way to go, but that technology will be dominant in the future. For instance, Plug-in Hybrids are way cheaper than full EVs, offer great mileage and a decent full electric range.

The other EV brands will take time to capture market share for themselves. It will take many years before they are able to match the level of recognition attained by Tesla. And we still don't know much about the performance of these brands. Companies such as Jaguar and Volvo are pretty new to the EV sector. So if there is some issue with the technology, it is going to be very difficult for these companies to resolve them on time. The patents may be open source, but operational knowledge and experience can't be transferred directly.

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Quote from: acquafredda on May 04, 2021, 12:45:37 AM

I am not at all convinced by these electric vehicles: first of all, they still rely mostly on fossil fuels to run (sorry, the truth); secondly, their batteries are going to be another environmental bomb in the future (not considering the car itself is an actual bomb if something goes wrong!); third and last, at least here in Italy, charging station are not common, and if you live in rural areas and you make long trips, you are done.

It's only the beginning, before Tesla, there were only few electric cars available on the market. Tesla's patents are open source, more and more companies are releasing full EV models, offering decent range, (above 400kms) who can actually compete with Tesla's vehicles (Jaguar I-Pace, Audi E-Tron, Volvo XC40) and many more who are yet to come.

I believe that electric cars have a long way to go, but that technology will be dominant in the future. For instance, Plug-in Hybrids are way cheaper than full EVs, offer great mileage and a decent full electric range.

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