Topic: The Art of Exploiting vs the Bad Habit of Scamming - page 2. (Read 743 times)

There are already scenarios where this could happen.
Many of the bots are self-developed and adapted to best suit the trading behavior of the bot-owner.

A simple bug that could lead to the loss of a lot of money would be, for example, a comma error. In German-speaking countries, for example, 10k is written like this:

10.000,00

In English-speaking countries in particular, however, the exact opposite is true:

10,000.00

If you as a developer make a mistake and you place a sell order for 1 BTC for 10 dollars instead of 10k dollars, this is a rather painful loss. In the early days of the Exchanges you have seen something like this in the order books from time to time, e.g. on bitcoin.de, where coins were set at 10% of the market price - and the orders were of course filled immediately

But I'm with you on this: It's definitely no "offence" of the buyer if someone places such a sell order.

You should read the contents of my reply. I never said it was a scam but manipulation. An exploit would be finding a glitch, but when you create it yourself it's manipulation, imo at least.
I was sharing similar ideas as the reply you linked, but with different words;

It is an exploit not a scam since it is a glitch/error of the machine.  It has been defined clearly from the posts before yours how scam and exploit are different. You can refer to Lakai01 since he clearly differentiates the two.



when a system is involved, it is always portrayed as an exploit.  Cheating a system is not scamming but rather exploiting the flaw to one's owns advantage.


The thin line between an exploit and scam is this explained well here

a nice discussion really
overall I don't count odds delay as an abuse but I try to avoid them as much as I can just because most likely my account will be super limited by taking such bets
at the end all sportsbetting sites have rules and they can void the bets whenever they want so sometimes books can be  unfair with their customers as well
also if we count this as an abuse then arbitrage may be considered the same as well , for me both are fine and as I said the books can always use their void sword so bettors aren't breaking any rules

the 2nd and 3rd ones are abuses and should be reported , never seen the 2nd one happening tho

the trading one is normal , the other traders aren't responsible for others' mistakes and they may be using bots as well
overall I can't see how this can happen , even if you put small orders the exchange should be matching you with the highest buy orders
unless you are doing it with a small coin and that can be explained as a try to dump the market and get rid of that coin

Sounds so much like a pump and dump scheme.
There was intent in this case to move the odds in their favour assuming both individuals were working together. It would count as market manipulation to me. An exploit would be taking advantage of an existing flaw. A scam would be to use dubious and sometimes criminal means to cheat a system.
Bookies can protect themselves with their ToS in different situations, and they make it as wide as possible to leave then enough wiggle room, so players can as well push the very limits to swing the odds to their favour. When both parties get too close to the edges, it could be outrightly unethical, but isn't a scam imo.

There is however a thin line between, scamming and manipulating and there would be diverse opinions on this.

I don't see anything wrong here. This is more of a level of service issue than anything. Especially so if they are consistently lagging in updating, this would be a glaring issue they would have to blatantly ignore. There could be any number of reasons for it, and would be something I expect them as a business operator to rectify and/or adapt to. I say that s this would be glaringly obvious to them, and not some random secret issue that could go unnoticed.
I don't wager often, so I don't get the logistics behind this. My take is that you run it once, make sure there is an exploit and prove it. You then contact their team and explain and prove it to them. Beyond that you are taking a hidden exploit and turning it into a scam. Not many people would be able to take advantage of it and if you attempt to be stealthy this could carry on for a long term.
No. I place this in the same category as #2. Try it prove it and then contact support to make them aware of it. If you go beyond that and attempt to game it for yourself you are knowingly attempting to turn an exploit into a scam.
In trading that would be on you, you are trusting your software to make decisions for you. No one is tricking it with a series of commands or events to make it do something outside of designed operation.

I feel the moment you discover something that is hidden and use this to manipulate the odds in your favor you are acting unethically and in bad faith. It crosses some lines and I would expect casinos and bookmakers to refuse service to individuals who abuse these hidden exploits without reporting them.

This depends. Are you taking a share of your friends profits. If so I feel this is 2 individuals manipulating and attempting to scam a bookmaker. If your friend happened to place a bet after you mentioned something along the lines of wishing you had been able to get those odds, then that's them using information for their own gain - not having participated in getting the odds manipulated.

Personally if they aren't offering the odds you want and can't find them elsewhere the spot doesn't exist. Fabricating it through betting and exploiting that using a different account makes this unethical imo. It's really no differnt than you just having an alt account to circumvent their TOS.

You can I am talking about niche markets here and early odds. I experienced it myself, without doing anything bad. It was just a super value bet (in my eyes), so I placed max bet multiple times in a short period of time and after each bet, the odds went down automatically.

The bookmakers use flagged accounts all the time to help them shape their (early) odds, before they up the general limit. Same reason why SBO changed their policy/limits some time ago, they get cheap information from the sharps that way. But you can't put the limits too low or they are not interested anymore. So your $1-$5 limit is somewhat correct, but the very good books limit their best players just to the point, where they will still stick around. They are very valuable to them.

Bookies are not balancing their books like that.

E.g., You cannot move the odds so easily, especially with a limited account and small bets.

Most of the flagged and heavily limited accounts have limits of 1$/€, max 5$/€.

If you want to pick a tendency, you could try NBA/NHL games where odds are usually moving in one direction for hours and green it in an exchange.

IF you want to watch a roller coaster - check the horses

BTW I would appreciate your opinion here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/opinion-needed-what-do-you-want-to-see-in-a-gambling-site-review-2-5261890

Thanks

...which is pathetic imo They (the provider) should have just fixed the issues on their end, instead of kind of forcing their customers to bully their customer/punters then. But I guess the bookies liked that "tool" in the end

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Another scenario, which would only work in smaller markets/sports though:

You have a flagged and heavily limited account in a bookmaker. Early odds come out, player A vs player B, 1.80 - 2.00. You want to bet on player B, but with higher odds. So with your flagged account you bet on player A multiple times max stake (because of the limit, you can't stake a lot though). Odds move of course, and are maybe 1.60 - 2.40 then. That is when a friend of you with unflagged/unlimited account places max bet on that 2.40.

Into what kind of category would that fall ? Exploit ? Scam ? Market manipulation ?

LAngel situation is funny but I will take it as an exploit but he should be paid for the winnings he got.

But then the casino investigated and the situation changed because it was found out the BTC he bet is actually from the casino itself. If it weren't investigated and probably he won just 0.5 to 1BTC, there wouldn't be any digging about his history but he will get paid. 

Anyway, exploiting and scamming has a fine line between them. An organization will likely pay the person who exploits the bug or even hire them for being a genius to which the casino also painted him as a genius. Now the casino is more prepared for that kind of exploit.

I don’t know any casino yet that let’s you use both moneyline bet combined with asian handicap in a single bet.That is called cheating as you are artificially raising the odds for the same type of bet and event.You can of course bet moneyline plus over goals in a single bet and almost all casinos allow this.

Exploiting and scamming looks a lot to me like whitehat hackers and blackhat hackers.A person who can find an exploit can choose to tell it for money being a whitehacker in this case or trying to cheat from this exploit and being a blackhat hacker.From what I have seen in the world there are a lot more blackhat hackers unfortunately.

Most of my answers on those numbered questions are the same as the others so I would start here.


I agree that there is this line between exploit and scamming and I guess it should not be exploiting but cheating. It is unfair for a scam to be compared with exploit since exploit can be ended with a good cause while scam is bad and it just ends there. A scam in gambling is usually on the part of the owner of the site like lying for that provably fair or maybe saying that there are supports 24/7 but they don't really care most of the time.



You are a cheater. That is an exploit in your side, those players are the scammers since people think they are playing seriously but they are not. @Lakai already said it and these team or group are scamming those people usually for the sake of money.



Well, that is cheating and that is just unethical behaviour since you take advantage of it but if not, then that is just good, you know. This depends though on how you found that exploit, right? If you did some hacking and dived to their system, then that is just immoral and unethical behavior but still could end up good, isn't it since we have a white hat and a black hat hackers. As @Upgrade00 said, the intent is both important on two sides since that usually will be the deciding factor of whether they will be taking advantage of it or not.

It can be sound as a silly difference, but this is the difference. When you bet in a bookmaker you're accepting their T&C. And these are designed to help and prevent at the most any loss for the house. We should remember each time that bookmaker are company that should have profit.
If it was very easy win with betting, no one was offering this kind of stuff.

Or as I have seen in my country (monopole) horse with odds of @1.00 ! Is it unfair? Yep is it!
Since if you win you get money back, if you lose ....
Also in my country some website have banned good better, or live corned due AML laws decide to avoid people to make large bets (over 500 euro).
They know very well that these type of better are very dangerous for their business, so they should find any excuse and exclude people from betting!
But is not for all. If you lose no one will complain, and you are allowed to place large bets.

This is the borderline I can accept. As a user, I'm betting on whatever they are giving me to. I'm not altering anything.

Nothing scammy as the 'reseting' of the session of the slot topic. The situation there is a pure scam, intentionally altering the site's environment using a bug.


If a bookie cancels a 2.00, when it's 1.80-ish everywhere else after a drop, then it's the bookie scamming imo. As you say, it's their fault and they should just take it on the chin and try to improve. I had information advantage and they can't punish me for that.
Even the 2.00 (that goes down to 1.40 in other places), I wouldn't expect to get cancelled, unless you put huge amounts on it. Did you experience these bets getting cancelled regularly ?