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Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support. - page 62. (Read 120014 times)

hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
In other words: turning Bitcoin into NotBitCoin.  Roll Eyes

It's needed to get rid of that annoying little brats called Jihan Wu and Roger Ver.

Thank you for being the perfect example of:
..."It's all the same to me and I just don't want WidgetCo to get their way; they want a so I'll vote for b"?
Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 3512
Merit: 4557
Well, I hope you all have fun with your Bitcoin fork. I'll be selling my Barrycoins, TYVM

Out of curiosity what path forward are you proposing as an alternative and do you feel a consensus can be built around that path?
Carlton is a fan of uasf+pow change if I'm not mistaken...
In other words: turning Bitcoin into NotBitCoin.  Roll Eyes

It's needed to get rid of that annoying little brats called Jihan Wu and Roger Ver.
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
As an aside, how likely is it for USAF in August?

Ugly, though it may be, is it likely to work? Or if not work,
Cobble along and add momentum to a better fix?
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
Well, I hope you all have fun with your Bitcoin fork. I'll be selling my Barrycoins, TYVM

Out of curiosity what path forward are you proposing as an alternative and do you feel a consensus can be built around that path?
Carlton is a fan of uasf+pow change if I'm not mistaken...
In other words: turning Bitcoin into NotBitCoin.  Roll Eyes
-ck
legendary
Activity: 4088
Merit: 1631
Ruu \o/
Well, I hope you all have fun with your Bitcoin fork. I'll be selling my Barrycoins, TYVM

Out of curiosity what path forward are you proposing as an alternative and do you feel a consensus can be built around that path?
Carlton is a fan of uasf+pow change if I'm not mistaken...
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
Government by consensus is not stagnation or immutability. It does not free one from politics or lock the system into a static state of guaranteed obsolescence.

This is simply a centralized power game, nothing else ; business as usual.  You will have a hierarchical system with "a leader / king" supported by an "aristocracy of important people" and then the "populace" that is made to cheer for their leaders and to beg for solutions to their problems.  You will have palace revolutions, where some usurper will manipulate the populace to replace the corrupt king and his corrupt aristocracy by himself and his aristocracy.

The only thing crypto had to offer, was immutability.  Yes, that induces "obsolescence" if it were badly designed, but there is no problem with that.  Crypto didn't need to be eternal ; hard forking is the way forward, offering myriads of choices, like in a free market where each individual entity can offer his fork, and see if it works in the market ; not by collectivism into a uniform monopoly that is the feast of aristocracy.  

Yes to some degree cryptocurrency is a hierarchical system this is inevitable and even desirable. Decentralization does not mean an equal voice for all (or equally negligible voice for all in the case of eternal immutability) and it never will. What cryptocurrency offers is growing immutability without emergent consensus for change which is something else entirely.

Politics is unavoidable as long as humans are part of the system. The "solution" of continuous divisive hard forking is a value destroying proposition as the underlying value of the system is determined not by the system itself but by the individuals choosing to voluntary transact in it and store capital in it.

We can and should develop innovations with different rule sets. These should be separate and parallel projects which allows for rapid free market innovation without shattering the consensus value of the original chain. If these innovations can be merged into bitcoin they will be once consensus exists for this either as modifications to the protocol or as side chains. If these innovations cannot be merged into bitcoin they will exist as stand alone projects of value.

As d5000 noted above mainstream adoption is not possible with a constantly and contentiously forking blockchain. Bitcoin would be restricted to a niche market of nerds and speculators. I am among those who find a return of the bitcoin price to $20 while we experiment with multiple embittered hard forks and chain splits an unattractive proposition. Those without an investment in bitcoin and those who have shorted bitcoin may find this option more appealing.

True decentralisation leads to immutability, simply because if you would have, say, 5 million users, and 100 000 miners in the network, all of them having small fractions of mining hash rate, all of them running hundreds of different node software by hundreds of different teams, there would simply be no way in even contacting them ; as most of them would be anonymous.  There wouldn't even be a platform to PROPOSE changes, as there's no way to know if even a very small fraction of the concerned users would look at it.  

This represents a fundamental misconception of the future. We are moving into an era of ever increasing transparency interconnectedness and communication. In the future it will be much easier to contact these node operators and propose changes then it is today. Anonymity will effectively cease to exist.  

Cryptocurrency will not eliminate politics. Smaller players will indeed align under "aristocrats". I as a lowly bitcointalk commentator have throw my support (for whatever it is worth) behind -ck who as a pool operator and mining software developer is one of bitcoin's "nobility". He along with the other influential players will see if they can find something that they all agree on and most of the rest of us will happily cheer for our leaders when they solve problems. This is the reality of the system. It's not perfect but it is a heck of a lot better then 51% majority rules and is why I fully expect bitcoin not to fall to $20 amidst weekly contentious and fracturing hardforks but to climb to $4000 and beyond as it gradually incorporates improvements and development under the watchful eyes of those most capable of managing these things.



There are, as always, only two kinds of human regulation: collectivist ones, and individualist ones.   Communism versus free market.  Kings versus anarchies.  As history has shown, anarchies usually contain power vacuums that install Kings, who abuse of their power to collect more wealth and power, until the system breaks down under its own weight, where a new power vacuum is filled in by another King.

I actually have a lot to say on this last point of yours but I would be veering off topic so I will refrain except to say that your analysis here implies a recurrent static cycle when the underlying reality is a progressive climb to higher levels of coordination and freedom. The emergence of bitcoin and government by consensus represents another step to said higher levels.

If you are interested in my thoughts on this last point I would refer you this prior post of mine:

The Nature of Progress
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 6249
Decentralization Maximalist
A chain split would mean a severe usability reduction. Every user that uses a certain number of Bitcoin services (e.g. exchanges, merchant sites, remittance services) is deprived from using a part of them in the case of a chain split if he doesn't want to use both chains.

I don't see why.  After all, a chain split doesn't "halve" the users or the coins: the old chain remains exactly as it was, with all the holdings etc... and all its functionality, and all its users.  Of course, if the old chain loses traction, then of course, it will lose out to the new chain - but I don't see the difference with an alt coin.

The difference is that the altcoin is visible from the start as a clearly separated ecosystem, while in the case of an chainsplit that is not so clear. In every chain split there will be services that were available to the users of the existing chain that limit themselves to only one chain (because of ideology or practical considerations). So it's most probable you, as an user, couldn't use all the services you were used to after the split, because otherwise you would have to use both chains.

In addition, there is the value/price problem. Money is useful because it's an unit of account. Even now without chain split Bitcoin is volatile, but at least for short-term operations it is usable. What would you do as an user if the chain splits and you have to care about the value you posess? You would have to sell your holdings on the chain you don't want to use anymore (e.g. because of there are no services that support it) on an exchange. Even if the prices of Chain A + Chain B reach the price of the old chain, it's a major usability hassle to have to worry about that.

For these reasons, I consider mainstream adoption is not possible with a constantly forking blockchain. Bitcoin would be restricted to a niche market of nerds and some speculators.


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Well, I'm absolutely convinced that the market prices of coins have *strictly* nothing to do with any form of usage, but are purely speculative.  Under any realistic estimation, the demand of bitcoin for usage (buying stuff with, apart from buying alt coins or fiat) should result in a bitcoin price of, say, $20,- to $100,- at this moment (I can explain this with Fisher's formula).

At the moment it's mostly speculation on future use that fuels the price. Bitcoin's $2000+ wouldn't be possible if there wasn't the dream of Bitcoin being a global currency in the future, and yes for that to work it must be mainstream friendly. And it isn't true that prices have nothing to do with usage: often news that are indicating growing usage (adoption by a large merchant, "legalization" in a country like Japan etc.) do have impact in the price.

We can go back to the $20 times without usage and experiment with hard forks and chain splits all the time until we find the best implementation, but I consider most of the community would not like this vision Wink There are already a lot of investments made and companies that wouldn't be happy at all.

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Yes, but that is exactly what a fork is (see above).  There's no difference in principle between a compacted new genesis block with a coinbase that gives the bitcoin owners their original holdings in the new coin, and a "clumsy genesis block" which is a 140 GB piece of block chain.

There is a difference, because even in a blockchain with a snapshot-based genesis block the ecosystems are clearly separated from the start. Such a "genesis fork" is the type of fork I don't consider harmful. It's mostly a "social" or "communication" difference, but I consider it very important because of the problems I outlined above in the case of a chain split of an existing coin.

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That's also why I support the agreement and only would support UASF in the case it has a real chance to get a supermajority of miners, exchanges/economy and users.

But if that is the case, no UASF is necessary because the Core stuff would activate.

95% for a soft fork is a very high threshold and can be blocked by every pool. I would be happy with a 75%-80% majority, in this case I would fully support the UASF because there will be clearly a majority and a minority chain.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Government by consensus is not stagnation or immutability. It does not free one from politics or lock the system into a static state of guaranteed obsolescence.

This is simply a centralized power game, nothing else ; business as usual.  You will have a hierarchical system with "a leader / king" supported by an "aristocracy of important people" and then the "populace" that is made to cheer for their leaders and to beg for solutions to their problems.  You will have palace revolutions, where some usurper will manipulate the populace to replace the corrupt king and his corrupt aristocracy by himself and his aristocracy.

The only thing crypto had to offer, was immutability.  Yes, that induces "obsolescence" if it were badly designed, but there is no problem with that.  Crypto didn't need to be eternal ; hard forking is the way forward, offering myriads of choices, like in a free market where each individual entity can offer his fork, and see if it works in the market ; not by collectivism into a uniform monopoly that is the feast of aristocracy.  

If the rule set is obsolete, let it lose out to free competition, not by collectivist central decision - even if that central decision is bought with votes - voting is a way to buy power because it suffers from a tragedy of the commons problem: if you vote badly, your error is dispatched over all: there is no individual punishment for voting badly, in the same way that there is no individual reward for pouring wine in the big barrel.   Voting correctly is costly and difficult, it is not free.  It costs effort and insight to vote correctly.   This is why a free market is superior over a collectivist voting system: in a free market, if you "vote" badly, the loss is on you, and on you only ; in a collectivist voting system, the loss due to your bad vote is on everyone.  This is why voting is the tool of the central hierarchy to keep the power: as the majority doesn't invest in their vote, it is easily bought, and the minority that knows, is overwhelmed by the majority that ignores, to the profit of the central power with the excuse that the "majority" voted.

True decentralisation leads to immutability, simply because if you would have, say, 5 million users, and 100 000 miners in the network, all of them having small fractions of mining hash rate, all of them running hundreds of different node software by hundreds of different teams, there would simply be no way in even contacting them ; as most of them would be anonymous.  There wouldn't even be a platform to PROPOSE changes, as there's no way to know if even a very small fraction of the concerned users would look at it.  So you see that a truly decentralized system with sufficiently many and small and varied entities can only agree upon an immutable protocol.   If a system with a very high "entropy of decentralization" is immutable, it means that a 'true decentralized system" should be immutable, and that if it can evolve, it simply means that the "entropy of decentralization" is too small.  This is why I consider that the true definition of decentralisation is the absence of POSSIBLE agreement between more than a few insignificant entities.

"gouvernance" is simply not possible in the limit of high decentralization and hence is contradictory to it.  If there can be governance (and governance is needed for collective change) then there is not sufficient decentralization because it means that this is a model that is not possible when decentralization increases.



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It is the currently vastly under appreciated next evolutionary step in the regulation of human affairs. Just as monarchy was an incremental improvement over despotism and representative democracy was a step up from monarchy government by consensus is a further improvement an evolution in governance that is currently in its infancy.

There are, as always, only two kinds of human regulation: collectivist ones, and individualist ones.   Communism versus free market.  Kings versus anarchies.  As history has shown, anarchies usually contain power vacuums that install Kings, who abuse of their power to collect more wealth and power, until the system breaks down under its own weight, where a new power vacuum is filled in by another King (whether he got there by violence or by votes doesn't matter).  From the moment that there is a uniform system where the minority is eaten by the "will" of the majority or not, we have collectivism.
Crypto could have had a value if it could maintain everyone out of the power vacuum which would be the case if its rules were immutable, because there's no power to be had with an immutable system.  It was its only value proposition: it would have been a self-stabilizing anarchy, contrary to most anarchies that are unstable under the power vacuum they create.  If within a crypto system, modification of the rules becomes possible, the power vacuum for the power to modify the rules will give rise to the same kind of collapse into a collectivist system as all the rest in human society.  

I think one could have designed bitcoin to avoid that, but one didn't.  It contains too many fundamental flaws to "stabilize the vacuum" (= immutability).  The central developer idea was already a central power, and the economy of scale of PoW will make it an oligarchy at best.

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With any new form to gevernance there is inevitable resistance from people used to doing business under the older paradigm. Despots angered at their inability to impose their will have at times violently overthrown democracies. Similarly individuals used to getting their way with simple majorities seeth at the difficulties inherent in building a broad consensus and yearn to use majorities and economic force to subdue their opponents. This ultimately is the source of all this contentious hard fork talk.

This is why immutability is the right solution.  There can not be any power struggle, because there's nothing to have power over.  If you don't like it, you are free to fork off, and take your followers with you.  But you don't impose anything on even one single individual.

I have the impression that "wanting to keep the unity of the chain" looks like having to modify Ford-T in the "ideal car for everyone", and then the dispute goes over how we have to change the Ford-T wheel, how we have to change the Ford-T engine, and we have to come to a "consensus" over what car is now the best car for everyone.   No, it is much better that if someone has a better car in mind than the Ford-T, he builds it, and puts it on the market, in competition with the Ford-T.  And if 10 people have 10 different ideas, they make 10 different cars out of the original Ford-T and everyone picks what he wants.  This is the "individualist" / free market approach, over the collectivist "all together in unity" form.  In the first approach, there is no power game, there's just the market.  In the latter, ALL is power game. 

If crypto is well designed, it leads to immutability, so there's no power struggle possible.  Those that want to do so, exhaust themselves without arriving at anything.  They should hard-fork and test their ideas in the market, not try to get "a large majority" on their side.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
Well, I hope you all have fun with your Bitcoin fork. I'll be selling my Barrycoins, TYVM

Out of curiosity what path forward are you proposing as an alternative and do you feel a consensus can be built around that path?
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055

This is why, if this kind of change is, in the end, possible, it is taking away from crypto its reason of existence.   After all, if such kind of change is possible because "people vote", then we get the same kind of manipulation, power abuse, and everything else we already have in our current societies without the crypto hassle.  If crypto has any value, it would reside in the inability to change the rules no matter how much one tries.  If "graved in stone" means "graved in stone until someone modifies it", duh.


Government by consensus is not stagnation or immutability. It does not free one from politics or lock the system into a static state of guaranteed obsolescence.

It is the currently vastly under appreciated next evolutionary step in the regulation of human affairs. Just as monarchy was an incremental improvement over despotism and representative democracy was a step up from monarchy government by consensus is a further improvement an evolution in governance that is currently in its infancy.

With any new form to governance there is inevitable resistance from people used to doing business under the older paradigm. Despots angered at their inability to impose their will have at times violently overthrown democracies. Similarly individuals used to getting their way with simple majorities seeth at the difficulties inherent in building a broad consensus and yearn to use majorities and economic force to subdue their opponents. This ultimately is the source of all this contentious hard fork talk.

Sustained increases in living conditions result only from gains in knowledge. Top-down control plays in role in the the organization needed to facilitate the emergence of new knowledge. Top-down control facilitates its own removal for new knowledge eventually circumvents and undermines the prior order allowing society to climb to higher energy systems. The new system is also one of top-down control but the knowledge gained allows for an overall relaxation of the imposed order increasing economic degrees-of-freedom.

The evolution of the social contract is a progressive climb to higher potential energy systems with increased degrees of freedom. The state of nature begat tribalism. Tribalism grew into despotism. Despotism advanced into monarchy. Monarchies were replaced by republics. It is likely that in the near future republics will be consumed by world government, and perhaps someday world government will evolve into decentralized government.

Each iteration has a common theme for each advance increases the number of individuals able to engage in cooperative activity while lowering the number of individuals able to defect. Each iteration increases the sustainable degrees of freedom the system can support.  


Cycles of Contention
Cycle #1  Cycle #2  Cycle #3  Cycle #4  Cycle #5  Cycle #6  
Mechanism of Control    Knowledge of Evil  Warlordism    Holy War  Usury  Universal Surveillance    Hedonism  
RulersThe Strong  Despots  God Kings/Monarchs    Capitalists    Oligarchs (NWO)  Decentralized Government    
Life of the Ruled"Nasty, Brutish, Short"    Slaves  Surfs  Debtors  Basic Income Recipients    Knowledge Workers  
Facilitated AdvanceKnowledge of Good    Commerce  Rule of Law  Growth  Transparency  Ascesis  

 
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Here's the real question:

No matter what change happens, how much of it will be because x% believed it should, and even further, how much x exists solely because of the mentality of "everybody else is..." and/or "It's all the same to me and I just don't want WidgetCo to get their way; they want a so I'll vote for b"?

This is why, if this kind of change is, in the end, possible, it is taking away from crypto its reason of existence.   After all, if such kind of change is possible because "people vote", then we get the same kind of manipulation, power abuse, and everything else we already have in our current societies without the crypto hassle.  If crypto has any value, it would reside in the inability to change the rules no matter how much one tries.  If "graved in stone" means "graved in stone until someone modifies it", duh.


hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
Here's the real question:

No matter what change happens, how much of it will be because x% believed it should, and even further, how much x exists solely because of the mentality of "everybody else is..." and/or "It's all the same to me and I just don't want WidgetCo to get their way; they want a so I'll vote for b"?
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Well, I hope you all have fun with your Bitcoin fork. I'll be selling my Barrycoins, TYVM


Re-centralisation for the win, lol
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055

Well, that could be the case, but it would mean that the Nash equilibrium is not stable in time.  As such, it would be a randomly evolving system where nothing is "graved in stone", and the whole invention of crypto would in fact turn out to be a complicated thing that doesn't achieve anything else but what we have always known: a hierarchical system where the upper layers modify the rules at unexpected moments to suit their advantages and which would reinforce their positions by the insider-knowledge they only posses about the new rules.

This could very well be the final outcome of the bitcoin experiment.  But if there's a hierarchy of decision makers, it has nothing decentralized.

Decentralization for decentralization's sake has no purpose.  However, decentralization as a tool for immutability makes sense.


In my opinion you are dramatically misvaluing the potential of dynamical evolving consensus systems. However, this conversation is somewhat off topic so I will leave it at that.

You may be interested in the recent debate/discussion between sidhujag and r0ach on the relative merits of silver and cryptocurrency here:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.19220506
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
You are essentially redefining "decentralization" as a system where the actors cannot communicate signal their interests or cooperate in any manner. This is not what decentralization is.

Of course it is.  Because if you give up on non-cooperation, you will automatically get hierarchical structures.
Apply your idea to the free market.  Consider in a free market that it would be a system where many actors can come together to make price agreements.  Even if they do this openly (like OPEC in the oil market did).  Do you consider that still as a free market, if there is a cartel that imposes its price on the rest ?  In my book, a free market is only free if the actors that are supposed to be in competition (sellers for instance) don't collude, that is, don't make agreements but compete with one another.

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Decentralized systems are not systems where communication is impossible nor are they immutable. Decentralized systems are living systems who transiently occupy fixed equilibrium points until a consensus is achieved to evolve to a superior state. They are evolving and dynamic entities not fixed monoliths.

Well, that could be the case, but it would mean that the Nash equilibrium is not stable in time.  As such, it would be a randomly evolving system where nothing is "graved in stone", and the whole invention of crypto would in fact turn out to be a complicated thing that doesn't achieve anything else but what we have always known: a hierarchical system where the upper layers modify the rules at unexpected moments to suit their advantages and which would reinforce their positions by the insider-knowledge they only posses about the new rules.

This could very well be the final outcome of the bitcoin experiment.  But if there's a hierarchy of decision makers, it has nothing decentralized.

Decentralization for decentralization's sake has no purpose.  However, decentralization as a tool for immutability makes sense.  If immutability cannot be achieved through decentralization, it is a lot of hassle for nothing.  After all, if any kind of wealth-weighted majority rule can impose their will upon a wealth-weighted minority, which will be the case if modifications are even possible, then crypto has nothing to offer that centralized systems don't do already, with less hassle.  The potential uniqueness of crypto is the immutability of the rules.  The tool to achieve that is decentralisation, the inability to come to agreements over changes.  If that's gone from the system, it has nothing to offer.

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Quote from: Wikipedia
Decentralised systems are intricately linked to the idea of self-organisation—a phenomenon in which local interactions between components of a system establish order and coordination to achieve global goals without a central commanding influence. The rules specifying these interactions emerge from local information and in the case of biological (or biologically-inspired) agents, from the closely linked perception and action system of the agents. These interactions continually form and depend on spatio-temporal patterns, which are created through the positive and negative feedback that the interactions provide.

Yes.  But the idea of crypto decentralization was exactly that this interaction would lead to immutability.  If it doesn't, the protocol can change in arbitrary ways, as dictated by a wealth-weighted and influence-weighted set of participants that will use that power to gain more power and wealth in the process, because they know the changes they will impose, and the others don't, and hence they can anticipate the economic consequences of it, and use that advantage in the market, while others don't.  And we have exactly what bitcoin was invented to avoid.

hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
I don't see why a chain split is to be avoided ; I would say, on the contrary: the more it splits, the more different versions can compete in the market, and the better the outcome will be.  [...]

In fact, in a certain way, alt coins do that already, but I think that it would be better, instead of starting new chains all the time, to fork off from existing ones, to have initial distributions which mean something.  After all, to get something going, it is much better to hand it out to a large existing audience than to try to win a new audience.

I disagree somewhat. A chain split would mean a severe usability reduction. Every user that uses a certain number of Bitcoin services (e.g. exchanges, merchant sites, remittance services) is deprived from using a part of them in the case of a chain split if he doesn't want to use both chains. And using both chains is also a severe usability hassle (even if there were "multichain" clients).


I don't see why.  After all, a chain split doesn't "halve" the users or the coins: the old chain remains exactly as it was, with all the holdings etc... and all its functionality, and all its users.  Of course, if the old chain loses traction, then of course, it will lose out to the new chain - but I don't see the difference with an alt coin.  

In fact, the ONLY difference between a new alt coin (with a fresh genesis block) and a (bilateral) hard fork, is the initial distribution of the new coin.  With a new genesis block, this distribution "starts from scratch", which could be a pre-mine with or without ICO, a new eco system of miners/minters etc... and the slow building up, or not, of an eco system, which takes time, which can go wrong etc...

With a hard fork, you take as an initial distribution, the actual bitcoin distribution at the moment of forking.  In fact, technically, you could even start a new genesis block and take as an initial pre-mine in that block, all the UTXO on the bitcoin block chain at a given block height, instead of forking off from a given block and keeping the old, messy chain dangling there.

For instance, in the proposal to change bitcoin to a PoS coin, or to change the PoW of bitcoin, it could just as well be done that way: a new genesis block, that is (verifiably) the UTXO of the bitcoin block chain at a certain height (one could even leave out Satoshi's stash for instance, so that this burden is gone) ; this is equivalent to forking off at a given block and forbidding Satoshi's addresses, but it would technically be much cleaner.


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Usage is what actually gives value to cryptocurrencies - without usage, they would be simply a software with no real use cases, because "low-to-zero" valued blockchains are easily attackable and wouldn't even usable as a Factom-style "notary" ledger.

Well, I'm absolutely convinced that the market prices of coins have *strictly* nothing to do with any form of usage, but are purely speculative.  Under any realistic estimation, the demand of bitcoin for usage (buying stuff with, apart from buying alt coins or fiat) should result in a bitcoin price of, say, $20,- to $100,- at this moment (I can explain this with Fisher's formula).  Most alt coins should be very close to a few tens of cents at best.  I have a less good view on ethereum, if one considers "gambling" a genuine buying of stuff.

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So my stance is that alt-chains are a cleaner way to experiment with different implementations. If you are worried about the distribution of the supply, then your alt-chain can simply use a snapshot from the Bitcoin balances at a certain block (like "BTX" and "CLAMS" have done).

Yes, but that is exactly what a fork is (see above).  There's no difference in principle between a compacted new genesis block with a coinbase that gives the bitcoin owners their original holdings in the new coin, and a "clumsy genesis block" which is a 140 GB piece of block chain.  Everybody can go and check that the coinbase of the fork is "right" ; it is simply a more compact form of the information that is used for the new coin from the 140 GB bitcoin chain up to the splitting point.

A fork is an alt coin with the same coin distribution at the point of forking than the original coin.  

If the fork wins in the market, or if the miners abandon the old coin, then there is some psychological effect that calls the "only continuation of property" which is the new coin, the name of the old coin.   If both continue to exist, there is no fundamental difference between an alt coin and a fork, apart from the initial distribution of coins.

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That's also why I support the agreement and only would support UASF in the case it has a real chance to get a supermajority of miners, exchanges/economy and users.

But if that is the case, no UASF is necessary because the Core stuff would activate.
legendary
Activity: 1946
Merit: 1055
...
Of course, there are MANY Nash equilibria.  There are as many Nash equilibria as there are thinkable protocols ! But ONCE you are in ONE Nash equilibrium the system cannot leave it.  It is only if there is a concerted effort that makes MANY entities decide TOGETHER to jump to another equilibrium, that this new equilibrium becomes the active Nash equilibrium ; however, BY DEFINITION, "a large part of all entities colluding" is exactly what is the end of decentralization, which, by hypothesis, means that entities don't collude.

So, a decentralized system (one in which entities don't collude and have no central leadership) where game theory is hence applicable, that finds itself in a Nash equilibrium, will remain in that Nash equilibrium for ever.  The Nash equilibrium being the protocol, it means that the protocol will remain the same for ever, hence is immutable.

QED.
...

Your error here is in your concept of collusion. Collusion is an opaque or secretive conspiracy of one group to cheat or deceive others.

In contrast communication is the transparent process of signaling information and interests. Communication as long as it is open and transparent does not suddenly turn a decentralized system into a cartel. Instead it allows evolution from one decentralized state or Nash equilibrium to a new higher order equilibrium.

You are essentially redefining "decentralization" as a system where the actors cannot communicate signal their interests or cooperate in any manner. This is not what decentralization is.

Decentralized systems are not systems where communication is impossible nor are they immutable. Decentralized systems are living systems who transiently occupy fixed equilibrium points until a consensus is achieved to evolve to a superior state. They are evolving and dynamic entities not fixed monoliths.

Here is another take on the topic.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralised_system
Quote from: Wikipedia
Decentralised systems are intricately linked to the idea of self-organisation—a phenomenon in which local interactions between components of a system establish order and coordination to achieve global goals without a central commanding influence. The rules specifying these interactions emerge from local information and in the case of biological (or biologically-inspired) agents, from the closely linked perception and action system of the agents. These interactions continually form and depend on spatio-temporal patterns, which are created through the positive and negative feedback that the interactions provide.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
...What makes you think that 2 MB base + 6 MB witness blocks aren't going to get filled up to the 8MB max very quickly? That's a potential 40GB+ of new blockchain per month, 360GB per year...
Who cares? Are all of the people, that are spouting about how big the chain will become, still on Windows 98 "because XP took up too much HDD space", too?
It's 2017, if storage space and bandwidth are your best claims for throttling a protocol, then perhaps you shouldn't be involved in the protocol.

Yep - new tech is always challenging newer tech - not other way around. Our brain just cannot follow or predict this, same as most retarted never could see btc trading at 2800$ ...

Rellax friends, let the parameters float and see what the markets and tech developers will do for us!

Far better than artificially setting up rules/limits for the past - that's not how our world is designed to grow.

It's all about disruption - and yes give it a try and try to change the 21Mio - that's the challenge but last one that is healthy to disrupt...
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
...What makes you think that 2 MB base + 6 MB witness blocks aren't going to get filled up to the 8MB max very quickly? That's a potential 40GB+ of new blockchain per month, 360GB per year...
Who cares? Are all of the people, that are spouting about how big the chain will become, still on Windows 98 "because XP took up too much HDD space", too?
It's 2017, if storage space and bandwidth are your best claims for throttling a protocol, then perhaps you shouldn't be involved in the protocol.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
I ask you personally, without the politics, just the technicals. Do you think Core 0.13.1 is a good version of Bitcoin?
It's off topic, but I don't want you to feel ignored. No, it wasn't, and if you need clarification just look at the 0.13.2 Change log. To delve even further off topic, about the pointlessness of a specific 7 month old release of a specific client in a conversation about a protocol, would be equally pointless.
Good day to you, sir.
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