Topic: The biggest thief in the Bitcoinica debacle? MtGox - page 2. (Read 10949 times)

I'm willing to do this,  but ultimately,  I think someone who isn't a Bitcoinica creditor should be the one to decide the distribution of the coins.

Up until now, Patrick has refused to meet with me in person,  but someone using his return address has sent me strange / threatening letters in the mail:

Roger Ver is representing himself and his buddy Tihan. He didn't like the releasing of the code, because he wanted a piece of pie. Despite the pie actually being shit. But that doesn't matter when $$$. This is why Patrick is hesitant I think. I don't know the specifics, but the sentiments are clear.

I'm a contractor and programmer who was hired to work on the hedging algorithm (site was losing money since months). I had no access to funds or the server (I'm talking about myself, not any of my other team members).

I have no power except to sign documents by the owners which allow them to give up responsibility even further or shift blame. If they want to do anything, they have the power. If there was anything I could have done, I would have done it rather than spending time on the forum communicating with people. And despite that, Tihan, Zhou, and everyone are well off and rich. Zhou was being paid 15k USD per month. I'm a opensource coder (still here and giving tools for the people since 3+ years), and no money supported by friends around me. I'm not trying to get sympathy, but some people are under the mistaken assumption we (Intersango) were some kind of rich company. We are motivated and passionate people who believe in Bitcoin living on the edge. Bitcoinica was an opportunity for us to create more Bitcoin projects. Anyway lesson learned, I'm never getting involved in other people's services and dodgy agreements like NDAs or partnership contracts (for shares in fake companies that don't exist by scammers who hide behind the shield of being an intermediary despite being the real owner).

Based on the below conversation with Patrick Strateman / Phantomcircut, I'm happy to do whatever everyone thinks is best. 
I think it is clear that Patrick can't be trusted to do what he says though.

[10/1/13 3:14:55 AM] Patrick Strateman: Hello roger
[10/1/13 3:15:03 AM] Patrick Strateman: I have a simple question for you
[10/1/13 3:15:10 AM] Patrick Strateman: are you in the us or japan at the moment?
[10/1/13 3:19:47 AM] Patrick Strateman: It would be a very good idea to answer this simple question
[10/1/13 3:20:15 AM] Patrick Strateman: if i do not receive an answer within 24 hours i will have no choice but to take action
[10/1/13 3:20:58 AM] Roger Ver: What are you implying?
[10/1/13 3:23:04 AM] Roger Ver: Why have you been promsing to turn over the passwords to the liquidators,  but never actually fufilling your promise?
[10/1/13 3:24:45 AM] Patrick Strateman: I was, at a point, prepared to turn over the passwords to Mr McCullagh. However his statements regarding the specifics of how he wishes to receive the information left me with extreme reservations
[10/1/13 3:25:25 AM] Roger Ver: Can you tell me the details of what caused the reservations?
[10/1/13 3:25:47 AM] Patrick Strateman: He asked to receive them over email with no security precautions taken.
[10/1/13 3:26:02 AM] Patrick Strateman: I would have been remiss in providing them in such a manner
[10/1/13 3:26:22 AM] Patrick Strateman: For reasons which I assume are obvious
[10/1/13 3:26:32 AM] Roger Ver: I think I agree.   If he provides you with a PGP key,  you are still willing to send him the passwords?
[10/1/13 3:28:08 AM] Patrick Strateman: His attitude towards the passwords in question has made the handover -- even under otherwise secure conditions-- questionable.
[10/1/13 3:28:33 AM] Patrick Strateman: I remain only interested in a resolution to the current situation to the benefit of all parties.
[10/1/13 3:30:09 AM] Roger Ver: At the end of the day,  I don't think it is your problem if the liquidator screws up with password security, and Mark at MTGOX has told me that the accounts are locked down,  so even if someone does present the passwords,  it will take Mark's manual approval to release any funds.   So even sending the passwords via a plane text email would still likely be secure enough.
[10/1/13 3:30:47 AM] Roger Ver: If you have other ideas,  I am happy to hear them.
[10/1/13 3:34:47 AM] Patrick Strateman: Mr McCullagh made a remarkably similar statment as to the transfer of passwords.
[10/1/13 3:35:33 AM] Patrick Strateman: His suggestion that the use of "dropbox" is acceptable or reasonable or in the best interest of creditors is however entirely contradictory to the general sentiment.
[10/1/13 3:35:54 AM] Patrick Strateman: (If you're wonding yes he actually suggested that the credentials be relayed via DropBox(tm))
[10/1/13 3:36:44 AM] Patrick Strateman: At this point I cannot within reason produce credentials to a NZ liquidator whom I have serisous misgivings about while being sued under US law.
[10/1/13 3:36:59 AM] Patrick Strateman: I once again assume you can understand the dilema I face.
[10/1/13 3:38:00 AM] Roger Ver: If I were in your shoes,  I would send him the passwords by whatever insecure method he wants,  and be done with it.  I've already told you we will drop the law suit as soon as you turn over the passwords to the liquidator.
[10/1/13 3:38:23 AM] Roger Ver: If you refuse,  it just wastes more time and money for everyone involved.
[10/1/13 3:39:04 AM] Patrick Strateman: But can you force jesse powell to comply with those terms? You yourself implied that this was entirely his doing.
[10/1/13 3:39:35 AM] Patrick Strateman: excuse me there is a typo let me fix that
[10/1/13 3:40:22 AM] Roger Ver: I'm 99% sure the other parties will agree to drop the lawsuit as well once you turn over the passwords.  They told me previously that is all they want as well.
[10/1/13 3:41:22 AM] Roger Ver: You could also Fedex the liqudator a USB drive with the passwords in a truecrypt container,  and then email him the password after he confirms reciept.   That would be a bit more secure than email alone.
[10/1/13 3:41:43 AM] Patrick Strateman: Unfortunately for both you and me I have serious misgivings about mr powells statements given that he has now employed council who knowingly is committing perjury.
[10/1/13 3:42:02 AM] Roger Ver: Can you explain what you mean by that?
[10/1/13 3:42:26 AM] Patrick Strateman: Every case management statement has denied that Bitcoinica LP is in bankruptcy
[10/1/13 3:42:47 AM] Patrick Strateman: those statements are not only false but hilariously provably false
[10/1/13 3:42:59 AM] Patrick Strateman: I wish to seek a resolution
[10/1/13 3:43:06 AM] Patrick Strateman: but this is not the way towards that
[10/1/13 3:43:29 AM] Patrick Strateman: I would be open and willing to a settlement conference between yourself and tihan
[10/1/13 3:43:35 AM] Patrick Strateman: jesse need not attend
[10/1/13 3:44:06 AM] Patrick Strateman: i cannot speak for tihan so i do not know if he would be willing
[10/1/13 3:44:08 AM] Roger Ver: I'm not a lawyer,  so I don't have a legal opinion in regards to that,  but I am sure the lawyer is not intentionaly commiting purgery and risking his law licence over this case.
[10/1/13 3:44:42 AM] Roger Ver: I think the settlement offer hasn't changed.  Just turn over the passwords to the liquidator,  and the lawsuit will be dropped.
[10/1/13 3:45:35 AM] Roger Ver: If you would like,  I can check with the rest of the creditors and see if there is some other settlement they would like to see happen.  Ultimately,  only a portion of the funds belongs to me,  so input should be in proportion to the amount owed.
[10/1/13 3:47:19 AM] Roger Ver: By not turning over the passwords to the liquidator,  you have substantially run up the liquidation bill.  That will directly result in the creditors receiving less money back.
[10/1/13 3:47:42 AM] Patrick Strateman: Mr McCullagh took no action for over 6 months.
[10/1/13 3:47:50 AM] Roger Ver: I think everyone involved just wants to get their share of the money back,  and have the entire mess be over.
[10/1/13 3:48:00 AM] Patrick Strateman: the work was deligated to a non-partner who took minimal actions
[10/1/13 3:48:18 AM] Roger Ver: The liquidators have been asking for you to turn over the passwords for 6 months.
[10/1/13 3:48:24 AM] Patrick Strateman: My requirements of Mr McCullagh were reasonable and necessary
[10/1/13 3:48:27 AM] Roger Ver: Without the passwords,  there isn't anything they can do.
[10/1/13 3:48:43 AM] Patrick Strateman: only within the last few weeks has he come even close to meeting those requirements
[10/1/13 3:48:45 AM] Roger Ver: If he provides  you with a PGP key, will you send him the passwords?
[10/1/13 3:49:46 AM] Patrick Strateman: To say that the liquidators have been asking for the passwords for over 6 months is to be exceptionally disingenuous.
[10/1/13 3:49:57 AM] Roger Ver: Please explain.
[10/1/13 3:49:58 AM] Patrick Strateman: The accounts in question are held by third parties.
[10/1/13 3:50:07 AM] Patrick Strateman: Mr McCullagh was told this
[10/1/13 3:50:23 AM] Patrick Strateman: he did absolutely nothing to secure the companies assets
[10/1/13 3:50:36 AM] Patrick Strateman: let me say that again so im entirely sure you understand
[10/1/13 3:51:03 AM] Patrick Strateman: mr mccullagh the liquidator of bitcoinica lp took no action for over a 8 months to secure the assets of the company in liquidation
[10/1/13 3:51:11 AM] Patrick Strateman: none
[10/1/13 3:51:32 AM] Roger Ver: What do you mean by "secure the assets"?
[10/1/13 3:51:44 AM] Patrick Strateman: only now that the approximately 80,000 USD in assets held by Core Credit LTD has been exhausted is he taking action
[10/1/13 3:52:41 AM] Roger Ver: Should I be thanking you for that?
[10/1/13 3:53:17 AM] Roger Ver: Please list the specific things you want in order to turn over the passwords to the liquidator.
[10/1/13 3:54:48 AM] Patrick Strateman: Mr McCullagh's actions have harmed me more so than you or any of the other creditors
[10/1/13 3:55:15 AM] Patrick Strateman: I think we can both agree that I personally have the most to lose by the liquidation failing to come to completion.
[10/1/13 3:56:06 AM] Roger Ver: I dissagree.  The liqudiators spending money because of your delays hurts me,  and the rest of the creditors who have to pay for it.  It doesn't cost you anything. Please list the specific things you want in order to turn over the passwords to the liquidator.
[10/1/13 3:57:03 AM] Patrick Strateman: excuse me i have urgent business to attend to I will return as soon as reasonably possible
[10/1/13 3:59:40 AM] Patrick Strateman: As I am sure you're aware the cost of procedings in the US far exceeds liquidators fees as yet.
[10/1/13 4:01:14 AM] Roger Ver: When you are ready,  please list the specific things you want in order to turn over the passwords to the liquidator.
[10/1/13 4:02:23 AM] Patrick Strateman: As I said previously I am willing to enter into settlement negotiations with yourself and Tihan.
[10/1/13 4:02:49 AM] Roger Ver: Tihan and I get along great,  I am happy to talk with him any time.
[10/1/13 4:03:24 AM] Roger Ver: I'm going to relay this chat to the rest of the creditors to see what they want as well.  I hope you will chose to list what specific things you want in order to turn over the passwords to the liquidator.

This is fucking stupid shit. You wanted to put the insecure site back up for personal profit. You were also an investor in Bitcoinica. I could not allow that.

And why was a random piece of code (used for something unrelated) used as the password for a site where all the passwords were stored? And how did the attacker know the login and everything? Oh yeah it was Zhou, and a convenient excuse for him.

willing to listen to anything at this point. 

If PC gives up the Password it would be worth a whole shitload to us.  I would support something like giving PC money to handle his lawsuit with whomever is now suing him.  Perhaps it would be worth it for us, rather than paying an exorbitant amt. to a lawyer to handle it the other way.

i didnt hear this.  does it even matter tho?  mt gox is holding our fucking coins hostage and the current liquidators have done a perfect job of rounding all creditors up.  i just dont understand this madness. 

ver, PC, their side drama doesn't interest me. 

Let's just get this lawsuit going if possible.  It would be good to let the general public know about this.  So far, this whole debacle has been relegated to this small service discussion forum.  It needs to garner more eyes to let the public decide who they want to deal with in the future regarding BTC.

It is obviously time to do something about this. 

Refer to this thread as well:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=126847.220

We need to act before mt gox goes down the toilet.  It is super worth it to me to pay a percentage of funds that are held if we can get a lawyer that will perform some sort of specific performace (?) or just make them get real with this situation.  IMO, we may never see these funds if gox goes down.  We should already be acting.

Some that were lucky (or close to the intersango team..) have received 50% or more if I recall, when patrick & amir were doing the liquidation.
I wish amir & patrick would provides a list of those, to avoid double liquidation or so... I wish they would do anything but I guess thats empty hopes.

As a major creditor (5021 bitcoins of claim), I just want to say one thing in this thread :

- I have absolutly 0 trust for the liquidator. All I have heard them do or say makes me think they are completly incompetent to handle this case.
- Whatever Roger Ver is doing, I trust that it is in our creditors best interest, much more than what other parties (bitcoinica, intersango, the liquidator) have been doing.

I have really low hopes in the liquidator, especially after they said that they would consider bitcoin worth 10$ and being uncommunicative for one year or so.

I asked taslim very early if they would consider bitcoins at a currency and to confirm that they were not valuating bitcoins 10$ but would consider claims in bitcoins as bitcoins, and he never answered me. Now it is not even this guy anymore at the liquidator office...

2 late

I emailed the liquidator today and received the instant reply of:  "I am currently away from the office on assignment and at this stage I do not know when I will be returning.  I will be checking my emails from time to time,........"

I think at this point it is fine to wait another week or so.

I should not have used the term "working partner" and I do take that back. However you are a partner as you are very much involved with coinlab. Even if you choose to do not to be "active" that is up to you.


We have been waiting for you to get back for us for months and months. You never even said hey guys, I did do what I said I was going to do but I have to keep everything secret.  If you had done that 6 months ago it would have been much better than not responding at all.

Because you work on BTC does not mean you get a free pass from your obligations. You were the one who said you would go to Gox and talk to them for us. We trusted you.

Now what should we do, just keep trusting you and waiting for you to sort it out or should we take auction on our own? Since you know more about this than us what would you advise us to do.


Thank you.





 

  I have no idea either.  It seems stupid to me too.


Now you are just making things up.  I'm not a working partner of Mt. Gox.


You have no idea what I do each day,  I was up until 3AM working on Bitcoin last night,  and got up at 9:30AM today to work on it more.  I've been keeping this kind of schedule for over 2.5 years now.  It is unappreciative people like you, who make me NOT want to help any more with the Bitcoinica situation.  Luckily for you, I know the rest of the victims don't share your same attitude.

Blame the victim much?

I wasn't. The video was posted to my own youtube channel because I thought the world might like an update on what is going on over there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1YsMlrfF0

  I've actually done a lot,  but have been asked to keep it confidential at the moment.

  I'm not an active part of the coinlab team in anyway.  I provided part of the seed money to get them started.  Now I hear from Peter once or twice a month when he sends out investor update emails.

  Way to blame the victim.


  There is no secret deal.  I'm still owed 24,841 BTC and haven't gotten a single one back.

  Unfortunately I don't have as much time as I would like to surf the forums providing updates.  Anyone is welcome to contact me any time by email.  My PGP keys are listed on rogerver.com

Placing blame at this point doesn't do much good,  but in my opinion, in order of responsibility, the blame belongs with:

1. The Bitcoinica Hacker
         The hacker is obviously smart enough to earn money honestly and has no excuse for what he has done.

2. Amir Taaki
          He released the Bitcoinica source code while an offer was on the table to buy Bitcoinica for enough money to pay back everyone %100 of what they were owed, except myself,  Jesse Powell, Jed McCaleb, Brian Cartmell.  Amir's publishing of the source code destroyed any value Bitcoinica had left, and directly led to an additional $40,000 USD and 40,000 BTC to be stolen from Bitcoinica's mtgox accounts.

3. Patrick Strateman
          Patrick has refused to cooperate in any way with the liquidators or anyone else involved.  He has blocked myself, Jesse, and Jed on skype, and does not reply to any of our emails.  Recently Patrick's mother contacted me,  and I met with her in person about the situation since Patrick isn't willing to.

The Bitcoinica debacle is full of accusations and blame. Nobody owns up to anything.

I've been watching this entire thing for more than a year. I was a Bitcoinica customer. I truly believed that Bitcoinica was an amazing service—it really would have taken off, had not been for the thefts.

But looking back, the entire thing is child's play. Blame. Negligence. "Not my fault, it's that person's." This started way before Bitcoinica closed.

Here's a list of people or companies who have blamed others and denied fault:

Aurumxchange: We were right to freeze funds because there is incontrovertible evidence that Zhou took them. We don't release them because they're not safe in his hands.
Chen Jinghai: Genjix was at fault because he released the code. The money was there for the taking.
Intersango/Bitcoin Consultancy: This was all CoinLab's doing. They used us as a scapegoat. The website leaked money, and we were used to patch the leak.
Linode: The hack was not our fault. We have excellent security practice.
Tihan Seale: Intersango/Bitcoin consultancy is wholly at fault for gross negligence. They were supposed to be security experts, yet they allowed the site to be hacked.
Mt. Gox: It would violate our policy to release the coins we hold, or any of the "secret information" we have. Besides, we're just an innocent third party.
Zhou Tong: I was framed. I'm just an employee. Chen Jinghai took the money. Intersango was at fault for the security problems.

I used to believe this nonsense, or at least some of it. Now I understand: the whole thing is bologna.

No party listed above is innocent in this debacle, no matter how much the beg and plead. How can you tell? Try this. Read only posts by one involved party in isolation of other people's. Look, it all makes sense. Clearly this person is innocent, and the ones he is blaming are at fault! Repeat for other involved parties. You'll soon see that the entire thing is a gigantic mess. Everyone has a share of the blame. And who is taking it?


My confidence in the success of this erodes with every day. After all, none of the guilty really lost any money. Tihan is rich and can write the whole thing off. Zhou probably earned more from Bitcoinica than he paid out to the victims. AurumXChange and Mt. Gox are enjoying ill-gotten gains that will likely never need to be remitted. Linode, Intersango, Chen Jinghai, etc. have pretty much forgotten the whole ordeal.

Who loses? Not the culprits, but innocent folk like Roger Ver.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=196150.40
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/removed-209362

In the other recent threads about this, the Intersango people seem to think that Tihan Seale is the roadblock, not Mtgox.

Weren't we led to believe that Mt Gox was only only the funds as sort of goodwill gesture? There should be no reasons at all for them to hold the funds indefinitely from the entity who passed it there.

If I was entrusted by A to hold money in a safe belonging to B, I should release the money back to A once it's asked for regardless of whom B is. Since we're talking about Bitcoin and nothing physical--for it would take a tad longer to process--do you know how long it would take to complete the transfer? Wait for it... LESS THAN ONE FUCKIN' MINUTE! Anything, and I mean any fuckin' amount of time longer to complete the process, then there's nefarious activity takin' place.

FAKE EDIT: I just looked at the calendar and it seems like it's been months/year since this has been going on. Clearly, not enough time for Mt Gox to act. My bad! Carry on!

Question: How many Bitcoinica customers have received their money back?

Answer: 0

Why? After all it has been well over a year since Bitcoinica locked customers out of their accounts claiming that all withdrawal requests would be honored.

Imho, the key reasons are these:

• 1) No backups: Bitcoinica was holding over 1M USD in customer deposits but did not bother to create a backup. As a result they lost all their customer data.
• 2) No responsibility: The VC set up a limited partnership with themselves as a limited partner (to avoid liability) and the Bitcoin Consultancy as the general partner. However the Bitcoin Consultancy never finished the formal paperwork establishing this fact. When things went south both parties simply walked away, leaving their customers completely screwed.
  

Since the beginning of this year a NZ court appointed liquidator has been responsible for getting depositors their money back (or what is left of it). Before the Bitcoinica partners walked away they send most of the customer deposits into an account at MtGox. So far MtGox has been unwilling to hand over the account to the liquidator claiming it would be against their 'privacy policy'. Despite numerous attempts from the liquidator to comply they have not succeeded. What happens if MtGox goes belly up? Well it ain't going to be pretty and will leave the Bitcoinica customers in an even deeper hole. (Liquidation in a liquidation? we must go deeper)

In the end I feel MtGox will end up being the biggest thief. The hacks amount to perhaps 30% of customer deposits. MtGox can simply hide behind their lawyers and privacy policy to keep the rest. For them it is just a waiting game. The Bitcoinica liquidator is burning through whatever USD balances were left on the Bitcoinica NZ bank account (at the expense of customers of course). And when that runs out before the end of the year I suspect they might just throw in the towel. The only alternative would be for the depositors to sue MtGox (Throw good money after bad and feed the lawyers), or hope that the Cartmell suit will have a positive outcome that results in regaining access to the Bitcoinica account on MtGox. Unlikely.

I really hope there will be some kind of happy ending to this disaster. For most Bitcoinica users it has been a long and painful journey that exposed the worst aspects of the Bitcoin community. I guess most depositors have given up at this point, which seems exactly what the other parties are counting on. As for me, I'd like to beat this dead horse one more time (since it is only playing dead).