The blockchain does not know its code but the code knows the blockchain?

HCP

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Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 24, 2021, 02:13:10 AM

Thank u, I will save it & read it soon to decide. As a first thought, I'm thinking a Cryptographic finger print of the code could solve the problem; do not run the code before verifying it.

You mean like the signed sha256sum's of the installers/zip files... signed by the public key of the Bitcoin Core devs? As available on the download page: https://bitcoincore.org/en/download/

The problem is... Bitcoin Core is not the only node software available or able to connect to the network and process transactions and blocks etc. Anyone is free to create their own node software. It seems that the author wants there to be only one node application or something... as that is the only way that I can think of that the "blockchain could know the code". Roll Eyes

Otherwise, the blockchain would need to know about any and every node application ever written... and then what happens if someone tries to create a new node client tomorrow? Well, the blockchain would reject it because it has "no knowledge" of this code. Roll Eyes

Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 24, 2021, 02:13:10 AM

This phrase was directed to the comment preceding it, not you.
For he/she said or complained from having to re- explain & defend his rejection to the paper and the author again & again

That's fine... I didn't think you were personally accusing me or anything

I was just pointing out, that I've never heard of this S.M.Z. person and had no knowledge of their ban... but that people generally don't get banned just for wanting to discuss ideas etc.

Shymaa-Arafat

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Quote from: HCP on August 23, 2021, 07:33:55 PM

Maybe try this archive.is link: https://archive.is/V2nyU

Thank u, I will save it & read it soon to decide. As a first thought, I'm thinking a Cryptographic finger print of the code could solve the problem; do not run the code before verifying it.

Quote from: HCP on August 23, 2021, 07:33:55 PM

Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 22, 2021, 03:59:42 AM

Anyway, why didn't u tell this explaination to the author & clarify any ambiguity he/she has instead of banning them?

I am not familiar with the account that is supposedly banned... or the reasons for them being banned, but I doubt it has anything to do with this "whitepaper". More likely it was for repeated breaking of forum rules. I certainly didn't ban anybody (I'm not a mod/admin).

This phrase was directed to the comment preceding it, not you.
For he/she said or complained from having to re- explain & defend his rejection to the paper and the author again & again

HCP

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Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 22, 2021, 03:59:42 AM

The midium link doesn't upload in my browser.

Maybe try this archive.is link: https://archive.is/V2nyU

Hopefully that will load in your browser (which browser are you using? Huh

)

Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 22, 2021, 03:59:42 AM

Anyway, why didn't u tell this explaination to the author & clarify any ambiguity he/she has instead of banning them?

I am not familiar with the account that is supposedly banned... or the reasons for them being banned, but I doubt it has anything to do with this "whitepaper". More likely it was for repeated breaking of forum rules. I certainly didn't ban anybody (I'm not a mod/admin).

Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 22, 2021, 03:59:42 AM

Still one question from me (I'm an academic person who have never run a full node) why the Genesis block is "generated" and not downloaded as part of the IBD Initial Block Download process?

When you start a blockchain... where are you going to download the Genesis block from if you're the first node? Huh

The simple solution is to simply generate the genesis block and hardcode it... anyone (ie. any node) that wants to use your blockchain is going to need to use the same genesis block. It really makes no difference if it is generated or downloaded.

But as an interesting thought... I wonder if it would be possible to create a Bitcoin client that attempts to "download" Block #0? Is it even possible for a current Bitcoin Node to send Block #0? Huh

Of course, if you were to attempt to download Block #0, how do you know that it is the "real" Block #0 and you haven't downloaded a fake one from a malicious node? Huh

Hence, hardcoding it in the client is the only logical option.

Shymaa-Arafat

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Quote

See what you made me do, I'm feeding the troll again. Ew.

What forces u to participate in the discussion?
Are you the moderator the who banned him?

suchmoon

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https://bpip.org

Quote from: NotATether on August 22, 2021, 11:11:46 AM

And also to be fair, the author constructed his arguments well, and looks like he did his research.

He's claiming that he can make an unforkable blockchain and doesn't address even the most basic issues with that, for example what would prevent creating a fork that doesn't include his magic hypothetical code, or what to do if the centralized provider of the "correct" code gets taken over by someone like CSW. It doesn't look like any serious thought was put into this at all, it's a fantasy "solution" to a non-existent problem and even if it was possible, it would create more and bigger problems.

See what you made me do, I'm feeding the troll again. Ew.

NotATether

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

This is apparently the document OP is talking about which is also written by SMZ: https://medium.com/@mocciaro.smz/associative-blockchain-code-f84f385c45ec (to be fair, it would've been easier on all of us if you just linked this in the first place though)

And also to be fair, the author constructed his arguments well, and looks like he did his research.

I'm not going to comment on this whole "ban" situation (create your own thread for that if that's important to any of you) since it's not relevant here, but it reinforces my view that this is mainly a theoretical idea and that actual code to apply this theory will need to be produced later at some point.

Shymaa-Arafat

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Quote

Of course, the bitcoin blockchain cannot change its genesis block, which the newly developed blockchains can do, but it can always include special blocks that certify the code authorized to modify it.

This would be the softest but still valid solution.

I don't understand why a special block, why not just verify a cryptographic function on the code before running it?

Quote

There was a violation of rules, repeatedly.

Honestly, the fact that I couldn't find the paper elsewhere, the medium link doesn't work, the one person acting as if a lawyer to the author hardly posts very small parts, not a name/twitter/....etc
All of these make me suspecious.

Quote

If one has a different point of view, one must allow the expression and full development of that point of view.

Express it & discuss it yes, but a full development I'm not sure; at least not on the publicly used software ... you don't run trial experiments on people or their savings.

As an example, my idea about UTXOS categorization/partition ( their Merkle as a start) although best suited to be tested on Utreexo, but I can not force them too.
Yes I expected them to do it or at least discuss with me why don't they think it's promising, but for the sake of scientific research or achieving more improvement; not for me as a person.
Like I'm discussing here without knowing this SMZ or even anyone of you.

concepter

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post canceled due to lack of interest and support.

suchmoon

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https://bpip.org

Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 22, 2021, 08:53:07 AM

I'm against banning from a public group for dispute reasons, unless there is a serious violation of the group rules just don't read or comment on his/her posts.

These discussion boards are supposed to be for sharing ideas, discussing & brainstorming, clarifying any misunderstanding, answering & helping beginners,...etc

There was a violation of rules, repeatedly. This board is about Bitcoin. All OP has to say about Bitcoin is that its genesis block is flawed for some made-up reason that doesn't make any sense, and doesn't offer any plausible solution for it anyway.

This is not a beginners board either. Time to stop feeding the ban-evading troll.

concepter

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Shymaa-Arafat

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Quote from: DooMAD on August 22, 2021, 06:41:50 AM

So, in essence, someone has conceptualised a blockchain that can't be forked, but only has an unproven theory about it. And they think we're going to unban their account so we can hear more about something which Bitcoin can't possibly benefit from. Yeah, sounds likely. Roll Eyes

I do not know the person, but as a matter of principle
I'm against banning from a public group for dispute reasons, unless there is a serious violation of the group rules just don't read or comment on his/her posts.

These discussion boards are supposed to be for sharing ideas, discussing & brainstorming, clarifying any misunderstanding, answering & helping beginners,...etc

concepter

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BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: pooya87 on August 22, 2021, 08:16:01 AM

The genesis block is hard-coded because everyone has to start from the same origin, otherwise if a node wanted to start downloading from block 0 the other nodes could give them another completely different chain (like an altcoin's chain with the same consensus rules as bitcoin) that could even be longer than bitcoin's with more work and that node wouldn't have any way of knowing it is on an altcoin chain.

While I agree that it should be hard-coded, I disagree for the reason you've said. A node should always follow what's having the most work. An altcoin could be using Bitcoin's genesis block and still have more work than Bitcoin. Does a hard-coded value determine what chain will a node follow? Obviously the one with the most work.

You probably confused it with “longest chain” or “different chain”.

pooya87

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Quote from: Shymaa-Arafat on August 22, 2021, 03:59:42 AM

Still one question from me (I'm an academic person who have never run a full node) why the Genesis block is "generated" and not downloaded as part of the IBD Initial Block Download process?

It is not exactly generated, in a way the Genesis block is hard-coded because the method always returns the same thing on all systems at all times.
The genesis block is hard-coded because everyone has to start from the same origin, otherwise if a node wanted to start downloading from block 0 the other nodes could give them another completely different chain (like an altcoin's chain with the same consensus rules as bitcoin) that could even be longer than bitcoin's with more work and that node wouldn't have any way of knowing it is on an altcoin chain.

concepter

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DooMAD

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Leave no FUD unchallenged

So, in essence, someone has conceptualised a blockchain that can't be forked, but only has an unproven theory about it. And they think we're going to unban their account so we can hear more about something which Bitcoin can't possibly benefit from. Yeah, sounds likely. Roll Eyes

Shymaa-Arafat

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Could it be that u mis-spelled the word the author meant & it is "assortative"?
In the paper
https://appliednetsci.springeropen.com/articles/10.1007/s41109-019-0249-6

The authors state the result:

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Another important finding of this study is that the transaction graphs of all examined coins are becoming non-assortative as they grow larger over time.

Where they define the term

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The assortativity coefficient of a graph indicates the tendency of the graph vertices to attach to other vertices that are similar to them. The similarity of two nodes is usually measured by their degrees, and the assortativity coefficient is calculated by the Pearson correlation coefficient of degree between pairs of linked nodes.

This metric has a numeric value between − 1 and 1. The value of 1 indicates that the graph is perfectly assortative and the vertices tend to have an edge with other vertices of similar degree. A value of − 1 indicates that the graph is completely disassortative and its vertices tend to link to vertices with different degrees. An assortativity of 0 shows that the graph is non-assortative and its vertices are neutral and do not exhibit a tendency for a particular type of vertices (Barabási and Pósfai 2016).

But here the authors do not state that as a problem, they just clarify a difference between cryptocurrencies & social media transaction graphs

concepter

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Shymaa-Arafat

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The midium link doesn't upload in my browser.
Anyway, why didn't u tell this explaination to the author & clarify any ambiguity he/she has instead of banning them?

Quote

But the fact that there is a method generating the Genesis block instead of a hex being decoded doesn't change the fact that block #0 IS hard-coded or the fact that in the decentralized network people running the "correct" code are generating the correct Genesis block and it doesn't matter what a malicious node does.

Still one question from me (I'm an academic person who have never run a full node) why the Genesis block is "generated" and not downloaded as part of the IBD Initial Block Download process?

pooya87

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Quote from: HCP on August 21, 2021, 11:54:43 PM

This seems fundamentally flawed... the Genesis block is just a data block... it's not a "code".

They probably looked at some "how to create an altcoin" guide and saw that in the bitcoin core source code there is a method that creates the Genesis block (which shitcoin creators change) and built this whole nonsense "article" on top of that. But the fact that there is a method generating the Genesis block instead of a hex being decoded doesn't change the fact that block #0 IS hard-coded or the fact that in the decentralized network people running the "correct" code are generating the correct Genesis block and it doesn't matter what a malicious node does.

Topic: The blockchain does not know its code but the code knows the blockchain? (Read 476 times)